Iran's Revolutionary Guards dare Israel to attack

reply to post by steppenwolf86


If I'm not mistaking (And I am not), the previous SAM generations did pretty much what they were designed for (blowing up hardened fast-movers like 4th gen fighters and below out of the sky). The difference here is that these next-gen SAM systems are even more advanced, faster, much (MUCH) harder to jam, faster launch, broader tracking capabilities etc. Its not like I am talking about some kind of alien-tech from the future... These weapons are very deadly if handled correctly and they come with a users-manual


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reply to post by edog11


You might be interested in reading the following:

Operation Mole Cricket 19 (1982)
en.wikipedia.org...

Champ
www.aviationweek.com.../awst/2011/11/21/AW_11_21_2011_p29-395318.xml

Lately Iran declared she developed in deployed a new hi tech anti aircraft missiles.
Actually Iran has been telling the same thing since 2009 if I'm not mistaken.
old.tehrantimes.com...

In case you didn't know, those are Hawk missiles from the 60's.
en.wikipedia.org...
I don't care how improved these missiles are, they are nowhere as sophisticated as modern AA missiles are. My guess is they were only repainted as they did with their A-5 jet clones.
If this is what the Iranian army has to offer, than it's pathetic.

reply to post by gravitational


I'm not talking about legacy cr@p from the 60's. I am talking about S-300's and S-400's, developed in Russia- the most advanced (Non-Classified/Secret) SAM Systems on the planet that can even take down ICBM's.

By the way, I know about your first link, read that a long time ago and I will check the other two later when time allows.


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reply to post by edog11


And my point was that the Israeli's have in the past completely destroyed what was at the time some of the most advanced equipment with operators trained by the then Soviets. They did this with 2 losses, and even those 2 are debatable. Who's to say they couldn't do it again? Give them some Growlers from a carrier and they are off to the races.

reply to post by steppenwolf86


That still does not change the fact that an F-15 (Which is the best fighter in Israels Arsenal) stands less than a 10% chance of beating ONE S-300 or S-400 missile, let alone multiple.
SAM systems have advanced extremely fast and have become much, much more deadly while fighters and bombers have not advanced even close to matching the "SAM-Evolution" curve. My point is that an air-force of Israels quantity and quality does not stand much chance against against a system that can even give the most advanced and "unbeatable" jet in the world a very tough time (F-22 Raptor).

There is a very good reason why the USA chose Stealth over Maneuverability when ordering the design of a "Hi-5th Generation" fighter which later became the F-22. Because the USA understood that in time, SAM systems will evolve so much, that it would be virtually impossible to survive in such an extremely hostile airspace without being, to a certain extend, invisible to radar, IR-Imagery, having a lower energy output etc.


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Originally posted by steppenwolf86
reply to post by edog11

 

And my point was that the Israeli's have in the past completely destroyed what was at the time some of the most advanced equipment with operators trained by the then Soviets. They did this with 2 losses, and even those 2 are debatable. Who's to say they couldn't do it again? Give them some Growlers from a carrier and they are off to the races.

Whenever there is a new technological advance, they go to war to destroy old weapons, so that arsenals can be replaced. It's business, nothing else. Same happened to Iraq. If Iran has latest weapons, there will be no war. But Syria, I think it's time for them to buy latest American weapons.

reply to post by edog11


FOR THE LAST TIME: All I am saying is that we have yet to see it in action. How many shoot downs does the system have to its name? Therefore it is unproven in combat. We will have to see if Iran gets it, and whether this will deter Israel. I highly doubt it is as good as you say it is. Pravda has a certain slant to its reporting, or wherever you are getting your information from. Us Americans brag time and time again about our Patriot system, which has had debatable success. When you only have tests to go on, well lets just say real life might look differently. By the way, how do they know it can track an F-22? Did they steal one and do a fly over? Did they fly over it with the PAK-FA? If they did this, why reveal that their shiney new prototype can be tracked?


As for the other guy, didnt the Iran/Iraq war deplete Iraqs military enough to force them to buy some new toys? By the way, Syria has been buying Russian Brand Military hardware for the last 40 years. So much for that theory of yours

reply to post by Keeper of Kheb


You do know that quote was possibly mis-translated and the people who mis-translated it were Israeli's? Anyway when was the last time Iran attacked any country? What makes you think they want a war when all of the aggression is coming from the West?

reply to post by steppenwolf86



Wowwww calm down there buddy. I agree and know that it's still not a combat-proven system but you should also know that you should not underestimate Iran.

How can it track an F-22? The same way it tracks any other object in the sky? F-22's aren't invisible, they are merely harder to detect. The closer and F-22 comes to a sensor (Be it Radar or IR), the easier that sensor can detect and if lucky, track the F-22.


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reply to post by edog11


If you read what I wrote, I asked, "How do they KNOW it can track an F-22?"

Originally posted by steppenwolf86
reply to post by edog11

 

If you read what I wrote, I asked, "How do they KNOW it can track an F-22?"

Because the F-22 is not the super-invincible plane that most people make it out to be? Russia knows how to make stealth planes, they know the principles involved and have decades of experience. I'm sure that they could figure out how to beat a rival stealth plane, especially when they were considering the weaknesses of their own T-50 project.

reply to post by steppenwolf86


Fine. How do they "Know"? First of all, because it's basic physics? Second of all, because the USAF has revealed that the F-22's Radar Cross Section (RCS) is the same as that of a metal marble (which translates to between 0.001 m2 and 0.0001 m2). What does this mean? It means that an F-22 bounces as little radar-waves back to the source as a metal marble would.

Take a look at the following list and keep in mind that:
#1 An F-22's RCS, according to the USAF, is between 0.001 m2 and 0.0001 m2.
#2 If an APG-63 (F-15 Radar) for example can detect a Raptor 14-33KM out, a much more powerful ground-based radar installation could do the same if the Raptor is farther out.

Also: RCS or Radar Cross Section basically means how big an object appears on Radar. Stealthy objects tend to have an extremely low RCS to minimize the amount of radar energy that is bounced back to the Radar who is trying to find and track the stealthy object.

APG-77 AESA(F-22A):

For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 20 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 35 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 112 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 200 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 300 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 355 km+



CAESAR AESA(EF-2000 Tranch3, post-2015 with 1,500 T/Rs):

For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 18~21 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 32~38 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 104~122 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 185~216 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 278~324 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 330~385 km+



APG-63 V2/V3/V4 AESA(F-15C/E/SG):

For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 14~19 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 25~33 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 81~104 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 144~185 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 215~278 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 255~330 km+



APG-81 AESA(F-35A/B/C):

For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 16 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 28 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 90 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 160 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 240 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 285 km+



APG-79 AESA(F/A-18E/F and EA-18G, Block 2 and 3):

For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 13 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 22 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 72 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 128 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 192 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 228 km+



CAPTOR(EF-2000 Tranch 1 and 2):

For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 12 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 22 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 70 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 124 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 185 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 220 km+



RBE-2 AESA(Rafale F4, post-2012):

For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 11~13 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 20~23 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 62~73 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 110~130 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 165~195 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 195~230 km+



APG-80 AESA(F-16E):

For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 11 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 20 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 62 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 110 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 165 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 195 km+



NOAR AESA(JAS-39 C/D PLUS, post-2013):

For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 10~11 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 18~20 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 56~62 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 100~110 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 150~165 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 178~195 km+



APG-63(F-15C):

For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 9 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 16 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 51 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 90 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 135 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 160 km+



RBE-2 PESA(Rafale F1/F2/F3):

For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 7~9 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 13~15 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 41~49 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 73~87 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 110~130 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 130~154 km+



APG-73(F/A-18E/F, Block1):

For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 5~6 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 10~11 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 32~36 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 56~64 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 84~96 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 100~114 km+

Again: Stealth means that an object is harder to detect and not impossible to detect. The closer you are to a Radar installation, the more radar energy your jet is exposed to and the more radar energy your jet bounces back, increasing the Radar's chances of seeing and perhaps tracking you.

Edit: An F-15's RCS is around 25-400 m2... No radar in the world would have the slightest trouble locating and tracking a huge signal that big.


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Originally posted by FOXMULDER147
Two different translations of the threat:

"For some time there has been a hidden energy we hope to expend to consign the enemies of Islam forever to the dustbin of history,"

“A concealed energy has existed for some time now and we would like to use it to send the enemies of Islam and Muslims to the dustbin of history,” he added.

What is this "energy" they are talking about?

edit on 21-11-2011 by FOXMULDER147 because: (no reason given)

Zeitgiest maybe?
Or speaking about something essoteric?

Originally posted by JohhnyBGood

The Jericho III ICBM equipped with a nuclear warhead provides Israel with a powerful deterrent against a nuclear Iran. It gives Israel a credible Electronic Magnetic Pulse (EMP) capability to loft a low kiloton yield warhead to an apogee over Iran that upon detonation would destroy the country’s industrial infrastructure, frying motherboards of hundreds of thousands of computers, disabling telecommunications, transportation and industrial systems. According to veteran Iran watcher, Ken Timmerman, President and CEO of the Foundation for Democracy in Iran, that possibility was confirmed by ex-CIA case officer Chet Nagle at a Capitol Hill EMPact America press conference in Washington, DC on Tuesday, the day before the Jericho III test was announced.

www.1913intel.com...

If they kept this low enough to restrict the area affected - they could knock out the nuke facilities and whatever else they needed without totally trashing the country.

Yeah but they've got to actually reach the nuke facilities first.
That would mean multiple EMP strikes. You'd need US help on that one, plus the escalation wouldn't be worth it.

Originally posted by WatchRider

Originally posted by FOXMULDER147
Two different translations of the threat:

"For some time there has been a hidden energy we hope to expend to consign the enemies of Islam forever to the dustbin of history,"

“A concealed energy has existed for some time now and we would like to use it to send the enemies of Islam and Muslims to the dustbin of history,” he added.

What is this "energy" they are talking about?

edit on 21-11-2011 by FOXMULDER147 because: (no reason given)

Zeitgiest maybe?
Or speaking about something essoteric?

That is the gist of it. Zeitgeist meaning social energy (it's actually a liberal socio-political term, not just a film for those who didn't know). Social energy is a gestalt force, meaning that when people work together, they produce more than the sum of their actions.

Fundamentally, zeitgeist means the will of the people and how it is intensified and directed.

For a historical example, I suggest the Total War effort on the North American homefront during WWII. Everybody busted their ass to fight the axis, soldier and worker, men and women.

Is anyone else thinking that such bold statements from Iran carry with it an undertone of having nukes and quite happy to use them against Israel?

Jeesus, what is this world coming to???

If they can track space shuttles and other devices leaving orbit.. i'm sure they can track a mere f-22

Russia/China won't attack the west.
They pretend to defend Iran/Nkorea in public so they can exploit them later on.


China just became a space traveling country, you honestly think they're going to throw it away for some ass backward countries? LOL

Originally posted by rationalistswagger
If they can track space shuttles and other devices leaving orbit.. i'm sure they can track a mere f-22

The Space Shuttle was a flying brick. And other things launched into orbit are not designed to be stealthy. What does any of that have to do with their ability to track a stealth airplane?

reply to post by steppenwolf86


heat signature

psychoenergetic signature

Stealth plane reflects less radar waves when hit with them (its visibility is about 40% of normal plane). But that's not all. Electronics are big help.
There are two types of radars. Doppler radar will detect object moving towards or away from it. Stealth plane has it's own device which detects the type of radar waves that hit it. For instance, if it is Doppler radar, then pilot will aim plane to fly in circular trajectory, so its distance from radar doesn't change, and Doppler radar will not detect it.
The other kind of radar will, contrary to Doppler radar, detect object moving at unchanging distance. So, stealth is a combination of shape of the plane, plus avionics, plus support from other planes and devices which detect and/or neutralize enemy radars. It is not just this stealth plane, it is the whole system which is in action deciding the outcome of stealthiness.