And the truth shall set you free (Part II)

esther
So, to Gadfly:

Are you from Texas? Were you at the Alamo? Did you fight at San Jacinto? Did you give up everything you had (millions) for freedom and autonomy?

No. You sit on your spoiled sarcastic divisive little rump and pick fights where no fight is needed. You are just another Loki who has no other purpose in life but to cause strife. So back up your accusation about Sam Houston with facts. I dare you to convince me. I am a reasonable person and have been known to change my mind when presented with hard evidence.

Do you know that Sam Houston SPARED Santa Anna's life, even though he didn't have to? After the Alamo, I don't know that I would have. Oh and BTW Santa Anna was a Mason as well.

I question your motivation about bringing up Sam Houston. As I said, I have been watching you and I know your tricks. If you want to take on a true descendant of those you wish to slander, bring it on because I will debate you anytime, any place about this issue. I will bury you. Show me your proof. I'm sure we'd all like to see it.

Whoa esther- the 'miss mellow' hallo kind of slipped.

Now that you've had time to read what I wrote about Sam Houston instead of 'presuming' what I would write do you see where I'm coming from? I ask not that you agree with me but at least see there is a little leaf on the bush (so to speak)

�I know your tricks�

;D

From your own post this is surely not the case.

�I will bury you�

try quoting someone other than Kruschev next time- oh yeah, he said �we� didn't he?

Was I at the Alamo- come on. Those guys ALL died! Well, the non-Mexican army guys. I might have an ancestor that was or maybe one in the Mexican army. I don't know.

Were there any slaves at the Alamo? I can't find anything on this.

Anyway, have you exposed any disinformation I have posted? Have I posted anything not backed up?

Join the DAR, they need energy.

esther
esther, who is trying really hard not to laugh in your face out of simple human respect. But believe me, you're making it extremely difficult.

Laugh all you need to esther. just couldn't deal with the truth could you?

So what if a lot of masons say �Texas is the daughter of masoonry,� that proves nothing but to them it was so.

Tejas was Mexican until AFTER the rebellion. She became a Republic in name at least.
She joined the Union, didn't get her way and threw in with a bunch of traitors. That's historical fact isn't it?

Is this still masonry?

PS.

"I am a reasonable person"

coming from someone that admittedly posted WITHOUT knowing is a tad hard on the belief system- maybe it's just me?

So, publicgadfly,

are you actually going to try to back up your atrocious accusations, or are you just wielding that sharp poking stick to see what kind of reactions you can get?'

As you can see, you have stirred up quite a number of folks. So, now that you have made your nasty little innuendos, would you please provide in detail, any evidence you may have for your accusations? Or shall you stand (or sit) revealed as a craven poltroon, defaming good men... again?

He has indeed stirred some people up. Perhpas he has no real intentions beyond that.

Originally posted by LTD602
He has indeed stirred some people up. Perhpas he has no real intentions beyond that.

His actions and posts leave me with the distinct impression that he is not interested in intellectual discourse, but simply to wield a pointy stick and stir... there is an internet character that fits that definition, and I believe it is a troll... perhaps his bridge is under repair or something and he has come out of the dark to see what problems he can stir up...

I am interested to see if he has ANY facts to back up his vile and impious attacks... but so far, I see nothing to give me hope of that...

theron
So, publicgadfly,

are you actually going to try to back up your atrocious accusations, or are you just wielding that sharp poking stick to see what kind of reactions you can get?'

As you can see, you have stirred up quite a number of folks. So, now that you have made your nasty little innuendos, would you please provide in detail, any evidence you may have for your accusations? Or shall you stand (or sit) revealed as a craven poltroon, defaming good men... again?

���poltroon?��� Wow, my spell-check didn't even nix that, dictionary- hmmm,

Oh, wow- that's bad.

Double modifier? theron if a negative and a negative = a positive am I now to presume you are trying to kiss up in a sly way. Am I to surmise that you, in action and fact, wish to leave the darkness that you perceive masonry to be?

So if I'm a cowardly and cowardly what do I end up being?

Have you read any of my posts? From your opening statement it appears they have passed you by. Such a loss. I feel that you have demonstrated such a special understanding of enlightenment the world is a much poorer place without that the illumination you could have gained. I have been wrong-

Little matter, the threads remain.

MY claims and questions regarding masonry remain. After trying to extract some reality from many on this board as it relates to masonry I am left to conclude at this point that masonry is nothing more than accusation, horrendously droll writings from an arcane Klucker and treasonous villan - - -

Reminds me, what masons found guilty of treason has masonry expelled?

Masonry is still conspiratorial. This will eventually percolate up.

-then, are conspiracies always bad?-

Conspiracies are not always bad. The formation of the United States involved quite a number or intertwined conspriacies...

The semantic emotional tone conveyed by the word conspiracy, however, in the context in which it is used, convey a negative.

As for craven poltroon:

Main Entry: cra�ven
Pronunciation: 'krA-v&n
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English cravant
1 archaic : DEFEATED, VANQUISHED
2 : lacking the least bit of courage : contemptibly fainthearted
synonym see COWARDLY

Main Entry: 1pol�troon
Pronunciation: p�l-'tr�n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French poultron, from Old Italian poltrone, probably akin to poltro colt, ultimately from Latin pullus young of an animal -- more at FOAL
: a spiritless coward : CRAVEN

so, a craven poltroon is a spritless coward without the least bit of courage...

I hope this helps you, as I chose those two words carefully to convey the absolute lack of intestinal fortitude with which I think you are girded... though I am more than willing to be proven wrong. A simple demonstration of factual data, other than craven innuendos would do nicely...

You seem overly fond of the "Do you still beat your wife" type of questions... not seeking information, really, but more along the lines of conveying sly and sneaky underhanded slander... which of course demonstrates a lack of facts, otherwise they would be provided in a clear and open manner...

Thanks for allowing me the opportunity to clarify my position. Now, if you have any facts to back up your sharp stick, I would really like to see them...

Oh, and by the way, are you Mike Gentry?

No one was trying to change your opinion, Gadfly. It was obvious from the start that they were carved in stone.

The point of my responses, for example, were to make sure that "lurkers" on these boards and those that are very new to these issues will be exposed to balanced ideas and other arguments. Also, some of your attacks against Masonry were obviously unfounded, based on assumptions. I wasn't defending Masonry so much as I was calling you out on your deficient methods of argument.

Unfortunately, you, an outsider to Masonry - someone who has not experienced any Lodge rituals firsthand or spoken to any Mason in person, puts you in a very tenuous position when you decide to discredit Masons - who know what you do not, and who have tknowlege that you lack. It's as if you are telliing an expert on Lions - who has been among them, that you too, are an expert . . . . sitting in your chair.

Unfortunately, you lost the very moment you began. You cannot justly, rightfully, and with any credibilty, argue against Masonry when you have witnessed NONE of it. You assume things, based on the posts you find around here and what you find scattered around the internet. This also leads me to believe you were never serious from the very beginning. In fact, even I, having attended only Lodge open houses and having interviews with Masons, stand on better ground than you.

Non-Masons fight an uphill battle when arguing against Masonry. It's not because they are bad people. It's because they lack the necessary knowledge and experience. A prerequisite when arguing against people who do things you have no knowledge of, is to know what they do. Assumptions, conjecture, and blanket generalizations are wonderful when simply discussing secret societies and fantastic phenomena. They will dig your hole, however, when you employ them as weapons.

You got people stirred up for no reason.

What exactly was your purpose in all this?

[edit on 10/2/2004 by esther]

[edit on 10/2/2004 by esther]

Well, another thread gone astray by trolls.

Hey, Neon, if you want to debate Masonic Light, I suggest doing it in the debate section. Ask the appropriate mod.
It's pretty obvious your original idea has fallen by the wayside.
And, esther, I wasn't familiar with your posts. After reading this thread, I gotta say,

[edit on 10/2/2004 by esther]

I recommend a Frank Sinatra: vodka and frangelico.

----- or was it vodka and rum. I don't remember. She bought me, like, seven . . . .



[edit on 5-9-2004 by LTD602]

esther

Originally posted by PublidGadflyNow that you've had time to read what I wrote about Sam Houston instead of 'presuming' what I would write do you see where I'm coming from? I ask not that you agree with me but at least see there is a little leaf on the bush (so to speak)

Nope, I still don't agree with you and you didn't answer the question. You propose that Houston let Santa Anna live because he was a Mason. Purely conjecture, once again, with no proof. Nada.

We know you don't agree with my conclusion but the facts are obvious. A little less on the lashes and maybe - - -?

esther �I will bury you�

try quoting someone other than Kruschev next time- oh yeah, he said �we� didn't he?

esther
Come on, little camper. Can't you focus for just one single minute and answer the question? You spliced out everything else I said with the accuracy of a Fox News editor. Answer the question. Proof? And I was not quoting anyone. That was especially for you from my heart. *blows kiss*

Somehow this doesn't ring true, cal me Mr. Skeptic-

'spliced out ' ' 'Now, now- be fair. I tried to capture the essence of your post. I know that nature may abhore a vacuum but the Internet hates redundency.

PublicGadfly
Was I at the Alamo- come on. Those guys ALL died! Well, the non-Mexican army guys. I might have an ancestor that was or maybe one in the Mexican army. I don't know.

esther
Thank you for proving my point. YOU DON'T KNOW. As usual.

Don't know? What- that the guys died at the Alamo or if I had an ancestor that did or was in the victorious Mexican army?

Anyway, have you exposed any disinformation I have posted? Have I posted anything not backed up?

esther
Plenty. No proof of the motivation behind Houston's decision, which is the ENTIRE crux of your argument.

MOTIVE? Is that the best you can do? I proved (using Texas web-sites no less) that Houston was:

a mason
let Santa Anna live
(actually he highly honored Santa Anna but I didn't want to 'over-kill' my position)
Santa Anna was a mason
Houston released Santa Anna
Santa Anna later returned to Texas and many thousands died

You may not like reading that one of your sacred cows has worms but history tells us Sam Houston was like the rest of us, makes decisions he later regrets. Sam plainly let his masonic-oath get in the way of many Texan's lives!
Bet their decendents don't know this, do they?
esther. just couldn't deal with the truth could you?

esther
Again, what truth? I can always handle the truth when it is in fact the truth. The truth is revealed by presenting facts and evidence. You have presented none for your argument other than pure conjecture. And not even a descendant at that? Just what do you think you really know? Learn everything on the internet? Talk to my grandmother about Sam Houston. She'd have slapped you for what you said with no evidence to back it up.

By your own statements you can not deal with the truth esther unless it fits your preconception of truth- good masonic logic there!

'Conjecture'- facts that don't add up to Texas-myth-hero-ghaud results.

Now we hit the jest don't we? �If 'ya ain't pure blood 'ya ain't sh - - -�

This reminds me of a claculation about the Mayflower all the people claiming ancestory make the 'boat' over 2,000 ft. long and 300 ft. wide. Like the �Alamo� stuff- so what /shrug\

I know a fair number of Texans like to believe they are somehow pure and above the pale, it's part of a conspiracy to excuse being traitors to the nation that saved them from conquest I suppose. I have never understood this aspect of Texans.
*best part of Texas is in your rearview mirror*- remember that song?

�Talk to my grandmother . . .�
shoot, if she knew Sam Houston she would be so old she couldn't hear me anyway! In 1863 how old was your Grandmother?

esther
"I am a reasonable person"

Coming from someone that admittedly posted WITHOUT knowing is a tad hard on the belief system- maybe it's just me?

esther
You are just beyond all redemption aren't you Loki?

O.K., you win- if I petition to change my board name to
Loki or The return of Loki or Loki returns will you help me?

Watta-ya-say?

esther
. . . not being narrow-minded. I never said I was meticulous.

I thought you did, somewhere? Hmmm, nmaybe it was thorough and I got cornfused? Narrow minded- well, I'll let that pass without further comment. Like "if I reminded you how you posted preconceived nootions or lost your cool or now became pro-mason or are going to join what two clubs - --" No, I won't do that. I'll let this pass. Hey, call me Mr. Bigheart

esther
And we were posting at the same time, as I said before. How could I have anticipated what you were writing at the same moment? You are so utterly ridiculous.

I AM Ridikalus?

Did I ever claim to be a mind reader? I was somehow- ahh, masonic logic *smacks self in forehead damaging mark of the beast/whoops- lodge*

I thought you posted that you know what I'm up to- am I wrong here?

esther

You are a slanderer and I am finished with you.

tsk, tsk- when ghauds become only men it is indeed sad. Another lost soul to the masonry-conspiracy.

I suppose this means esther can't be called upon as a neutral anymore? Such a shame when my own prejudices get in the way of my own statements. I have been wrong-

So am I going to at least be thanked for helping a poster educate themselves about masonry? I deserve something from this because I'm still not getting any decent mason answers!

Look how far sister esther has come- she now reads masonry, she now posts references that claim Texas is "the daughter of masonry� and she is posting about joining the DTR and DAR! Next? The Eastern Star!!!!! Can I get an AMEN?
(with a daughter like that the parents must be UG-LY)- can we say "Houston ship canal?"

send payments via paypal only-

Ahh, she returns- - -

esther]
And BTW, Socrates would be sooooooo disappointed. You are a disgrace to your name.

Maybe you need to take Philosophy and Logic again. I hear the University of Phoenix offers courses online, since it is apparent that any actual hands-on knowledge gives you the hives.

Better luck next time, small fry.

esther.

Ohhh, so pointed too. Hey, like the new dress-- what is that like 3 today? ;D

as always your Loki

esther
Thanks. It was a big waste of time but perhaps now the Masons know that while I am anti-organization (perhaps I am rethinking that at this point thanks to them), I am definitely not anti-Mason, which was the whole point for me.

See, you learned something- a simple thank you would do nicely!

Those strings the puppetmasters use- is the twine like invisible? Just curious- a little side thought is all

Ohhh, you sharpened your stick, did you gadfly? Pretty nasty stuff. Do you kiss your momma with that nasty mouth?

Ok, to get serious. Sam Houston DID let Santa Anna go. So what? No one can claim to see into the future, and I am sure that was a decision Br. Houston came to regret, especially that day at the Alamo, where no quarter was asked nor given, and several masons died on the Texas side, as well as on the Mexican side.

So, big deal. You tried to make it sound like some kind of great conspiracy or masons against the rest of the world kind of event, when that is not that case at all...

Sheesh, is this the best you can do? That a leader of men and a nation in formation allowed the leader of the opposition, when beaten and captured, to go free? I suppose you have not read of the great tradition among masons of allowing enemy prisoners their freedom as opposed to death? Is that not the very definition of compassion? Or don't you have any in your soul?

Sam Houston allowed Santa Anna to go free...that is hardly the world class killer you implied... but then, we would be back to your argument method... nastly and sly innuendo as opposed to facts...

had you said: Sam Houston captured Santa Anna after a battle, and then allowed Santa Anna to return home a free man as opposed to killing him, you would not have gotten as much stirred up... it really does appear that your goal is not discussion, but wielding a sharp stick and stirring to see what reactions you can get... hardly an intellectual pursuit.

Very sad.

by the way, is your real name Mike Gentry, old gadfly old son?

[edit on 10/2/2004 by esther]

Cardinal Rule of Research:

The absence of evidence is not a license to create it.

If you don't know, simply admit that you don't know, and keep searching.

[edit on 10/2/2004 by esther]

I think it is fair to logically come to the conclusion that Gadfly, is in fact, Mike Gentry, or at least wishes to masquerade as him. Why else would he refuse to acknowledge the question over and over? I know that if someone accused me of being someone I wasn't, I wouldn't (A), ignore the question repeatedly, and (B), finally respond with "Did I ever say I was Mike Gentry?"

Originally posted by JonestownRed
I think it is fair to logically come to the conclusion that Gadfly, is in fact,

I'd bet my money on PG being the banned FM based on his unjustified superiority complex, the lack of substance in his posts and his generally rude behavior. It really does not matter one way or the other, it's just fun guessing.

What's in a name?
That what we call a manure, by any other name would smell as foul.
.

I dunno... I kind of resent his death threat to me... but I would expect no less from Mike Gentry, who CLAIMS to be a Christian, but acts in a most unchristian manner.

I would be surprised if the mods haven't banned him for tacitly calling for my death with his reference on an earlier thread to my sounding like a lawyer, immediately followed by a quote from shakespeare about killing all the lawyers...