And the truth shall set you free (Part II)

if i remember correctly at one point Supercalafragilisticexpialadocios (sp?)
was added to the dictionary and it is longer than antidisestablishmentarianism
by 5 letters

[edit on 10/2/2004 by esther]

I am sorry, Esther...

Folks opposed to masonry aren't interested in truth, nor in seriously debating it. Masons aren't interested in the unsupported opinions of those opposed to our ancient and honorable fraternity because we KNOW better, being masons, as it were...

Masons aren't really interested in converting the heathen masonic critic into a self actualizing intellectually honest person... they are clearly beyond that, though it would be nice, and it HAS happened, but by and large, the critic is not interested in the truth, and since they have none of their own (truth) they really have nothing to offer BUT their opinions.

its a sad state, but what can you do. I reply to them to show the casual reader that the truth is out there, and it is NOT what these folks that attack us are offering. You, at least, are honest. You don't like groups. And that's okay, none of us are trying to get you to like groups. We like fellowship and association and the good that many banded together can achieve.

We kind of resent these folks that have nothing but lies, conjeture and innuendo to offer slandering us, because the good that we do is clearly visible, as are the good men that are masons. Most of us will defend against these lies, along the same manner as if someone told us that out sister was ugly... when she is clearly a knockout. We refrain from punching folks in the nose... partly because it is hard to do over the internet, and largely because it is unmasonic.

So we are at loggerheads, and have been for three to four hundred years. Folks fear us because they cannot know what goes on in our meetings, and since we are dedicated to being good men, and only allowing good men INTO the fraternity, those that have lingering doubts about their honor, integrity and goodness, seek to slander us because they CAN'T get in to see...

And why should they? Are you angry because you cannot get into the Mormon Temple in Salt Lake City, UT? they don't let non mormons in. And if not, why be angry at masons and not mormons. Are you angry because you cannot get into the closed bishops meetings with the pope in the Vatican? If not, why not while at the same time being angry at masons.

there are some things in life that folks that have not earned a RIGHT to attend, cannot attend. period.

So, instead of cleaning up their acts and joining, they obsess over it, and obsessing, begin to have dark thoughts, and having dark thoughts, start conjecturing about what we are doing, and then spreading those conjectures to destroy that which they cannot obtain. It is an old story, a sad story, but one that is familiar...

Masonic Light was a good candidate to debate Neonhelmet, and as noted elsewhere, MasonicLight would have handed Neonhelmet his head in any debate of facts. I would have loved to have sat back and read that exchange...

Oh well.

You have a good weekend, ok?

[edit on 10/2/2004 by esther]

Originally posted by theron dunn
I would have loved to have sat back and read that exchange...

Just as- - -

So, how many more masonic - oaths deaths do we need theron? Was a few thousands from 'Ol Sam enough?

What's the 'official' masonic position on American social security? I can't find it on any web-site?

Originally posted by PublicGadfly

Originally posted by theron dunn
I would have loved to have sat back and read that exchange...

Just as- - -

So, how many more masonic - oaths deaths do we need theron? Was a few thousands from 'Ol Sam enough?

What's the 'official' masonic position on American social security? I can't find it on any web-site?

Masonic oath deaths? There is no such thing. The penalties of the obligation are a) symbolic, and b) called down by the brother ON HIMSELF.

No mason EVER imposes those penalites.

So, your nasty little innuendo is left as just that... nasty unsupported innuendo.

Thanks for playing, Michael.

PG- Freemasonry as a fraternity do not, as a whole, hold any opinion on the subject of American social security, nor do they hold opinions or positions about any other political or religious issues. I have met many Freemasons (both through family and friend), they all come from different walks of life, granted there are a fair amount that own business or are in high standing in the community, but as a whole they are very diverse. That being said, I know that they all have different views about life, politics, religion, etc. (again granted there are some that have the same belief systems and political affiliations). Therefore the only thing that can be said is that there was an old-boys club in the twentieth century but that is almost dead now. IMO the old-boys club would not do any �business� in the lodge, this would be an out of lodge activity, like a dinner meeting or the like, as well in the lodge the old-boys club would not discuss anything on their agenda as far as politics and religion is concerned. Thus, Freemasonry as a fraternity holds the position of tolerance, brotherhood and understanding (charity yada yada, if you look on one of their websites it should tell you all the rest). Maybe you should take it upon yourself to do some real detective work and go down to a lodge and talk to someone in person, I was an anti-ish mason before I talked to them (in person) and they showed me their lodge, introduced me to other masons, invited me to a Christmas party, and well after 5 years of talking to masons and seeing what they do and seeing the diversity in their membership, all sort of swayed my opinion about them [I am joining the Lodge of my choice in January (I have already gone through the interviews and have sponsors and I am setting up a second interview at the end of September were 3 masons come by for an �investigation�) , as there are over 14 lodges in Victoria and it took me a long time to find the right suit for me]. I would say 70% of masons that I have met are nice, loving and kind people and the other 30% are nice and loving people but are a bit standoffish at first (may just be my perception but they were not half as kind as the others). I would also say that maybe 20% or less actually know what the hell Freemasonry really is and those 20% are the ones that do the best (good) works in our society. These 20% are above and beyond; they take no credit for their good deeds and help countless people in countless ways.

Folks opposed to masonry aren't interested in truth, nor in seriously debating it. Masons aren't interested in the unsupported opinions of those opposed to our ancient and honorable fraternity because we KNOW better, being masons, as it were...

It is you that have ruined this thread instead of abiding to the guidelines so we could have a fair discussion you troll down every thing and then blame it on ME as an Anti Mason.
I do want to have this discussion it is you and your little buddies who are walking away and ridiculing my attempt to parley.

Again I can only say to Esther and Masonic Light I am sorry to have wasted your time, but I hope you can see that isn�t me that are stepping down.

the critic is not interested in the truth

Listen to your self you THINK you know so much, and you keep telling us that it us that a narrow minded and afraid to face the truth.

We kind of resent these folks that have nothing but lies, conjecture and innuendo to offer slandering us, because the good that we do is clearly visible, as are the good men that are masons. Most of us will defend against these lies, along the same manner as if someone told us that out sister was ugly... when she is clearly a knockout. We refrain from punching folks in the nose... partly because it is hard to do over the internet, and largely because it is un-Masonic.

You HIDE behind some whacks and are afraid to face the real anti masons, and now you are also calling me a liar and a spreader of slander. Come lets take this discussion NOW I well get an anti mason to take my place and I will step in and start this debate.

And I don�t fear you, I bet you don�t have the guts to face me in real life I DARE YOU I will even go so far and say we meet on your territory so you don�t have to complain about expenses, what do you say!

You are HIDING behind you monitor throwing so many insults after me, just try and do that face to face.
And you think that we are skeptic about the masons because we really deep down want to join, YOU ARE SO HIGH ON YOU SELF it�s an embarrassment to your kind.

there are some things in life that folks that have not earned a RIGHT to attend, cannot attend. Period

I am glad this thread got started, it is you that are put in a bad light right now, and it�s unbelievable, if your order really stood for what you say you would have been thrown out a long time ago.
You are the opposite of the values you claim to uphold.

I SAY LETS GET IT ON!

Bilbo

Ps: as I am reading this through it seems pretty emotional, but when some body pisses me on the back (Danish term) I get well angry, and you can play me and turn it to you advantage i know that.

Pps: I press 350 pounds in bench and hit with an average of 500 pounds so I know you wouldn�t dare telling me this to my face. (THIS IS A FACT NOT A THREAT)

Ppps: So maybe I have more brawls than brains?


[edit on 5-9-2004 by NeonHelmet]

ROFL. C'mon Neon, don't be such a kid. Emotional outbursts like that are unbecoming.

Well, at least you'll finally get to meet a real Mason IN PERSON, just like I suggested, lol !!!

Not quite the way I would have imagined it going down, but nonetheless . . . .

Will you be flying KLM, business class? Don't forget to bring some cheese and one of those cool overnight baggies with the little razor, little comb, little soap, and all.



[edit on 4-9-2004 by LTD602]

A debate usually has a topic. To this point this thread has no topic to debate unless one considers "Masons Good" versus "Masons Bad" a topic. And it seems that the debaters would need to agree on the topic. To this point I've seen no such agreement and I am not even sure who are the debaters.

NH, please do not interpret the above comments as any intent to push you around. Just trying to help.
.

Originally posted by amike555
PG- Freemasonry as a fraternity do not, as a whole, hold any opinion on the subject of American social security,

. . .


are above and beyond; they take no credit for their good deeds and help countless people in countless ways.

Good for you!

I hope your experience works well for you and yours.

The first statement, I guess, is your belief in a really broad sense- possibly multi-national perhaps.

I have known many, many good folks that became masons. I know many that are still good folks.

LTD I don�t make so much money than I can afford business class, I have about 84000$ a year so that�s a little above average income. But I retract my statement as I know he wouldn�t be there to face me if I showed, though I would like to go to the states again, only been there as a kid.
I miss Disney World.

Bilbo

BTW: I have told my mom you say I am a liar and she says that you should behave and be nice to me!




[edit on 5-9-2004 by NeonHelmet]

Originally posted by theron dunn

Masonic oath deaths? There is no such thing. The penalties of the obligation are a) symbolic, and b) called down by the brother ON HIMSELF.

Excuse me- the format monster and bad eyes got to me.

Masonic oaths that caused deaths (such as Sam Houston's)

So, your nasty little innuendo is left as just that... nasty unsupported innuendo.
.

Wasn't ���nasty���. My grandkids diapers get ���nasty���. Get real theron, I am just on a search.

So, how is it that masons excuse using their masonic oath even if it causes deaths?

That is pretty clear isn't it?

PS
amike555 hopefully you will remember who you were (before) when you arrive. Learn and grow- don't forget your roots.
ss: Uncle Jeb

Originally posted by NeonHelmet

Folks opposed to masonry aren't interested in truth, nor in seriously debating it. Masons aren't interested in the unsupported opinions of those opposed to our ancient and honorable fraternity because we KNOW better, being masons, as it were...

It is you that have ruined this thread instead of abiding to the guidelines so we could have a fair discussion you troll down every thing and then blame it on ME as an Anti Mason.

Really? Lets see how that plays out... I have post three items on this thread. One is a note that I would sit back and watch with amusement. One is a note to Esther, apologizing to her, and making notations which you quote further down on this post... so how did I ruin this thread? By refusing to play with you? Get real.

neonHelmet
I do want to have this discussion it is you and your little buddies who are walking away and ridiculing my attempt to parley.

There is NOTHING to parlay. You made an offer. MasonicLight accepted. What more do you want??? Sheesh, you come to the table with a lack of facts and a surfeit of opinions, and you want SYMPATHY when you are ridiculed? Wrong window.

neonHelmet
Again I can only say to Esther and Masonic Light I am sorry to have wasted your time, but I hope you can see that isn�t me that are stepping down.

Noted. thanks for clearing that up.

Unknown
the critic is not interested in the truth

NeonHelmet
Listen to your self. you THINK you know so much, and you keep telling us that it us that (we are) narrow minded and afraid to face the truth.

Ok, prove me wrong. So far, you have been posting here about two weeks, and you have yet to provide any factual data on anything, all you have given us is your OPINION, which, while... interesting, is of no objective value. What I think we are in search of here is TRUTH... and facts make truth.

Theron Dunn
We kind of resent these folks that have nothing but lies, conjecture and innuendo to offer slandering us, because the good that we do is clearly visible, as are the good men that are masons. Most of us will defend against these lies, along the same manner as if someone told us that out sister was ugly... when she is clearly a knockout. We refrain from punching folks in the nose... partly because it is hard to do over the internet, and largely because it is un-Masonic.

NeonHelmet
You HIDE behind some whacks and are afraid to face the real anti masons, and now you are also calling me a liar and a spreader of slander. Come lets take this discussion NOW I well get an anti mason to take my place and I will step in and start this debate.

And I don�t fear you, I bet you don�t have the guts to face me in real life I DARE YOU I will even go so far and say we meet on your territory so you don�t have to complain about expenses, what do you say!

Hey, knock yourself out. If you want to pay, I will fly anywhere in the world to meet you... have passport will travel. Or, come visit me, I will gladly u2u my address and we can meet. I think you, like most folks that come spreading lies are basically craven, and haven't the intestinal fortitude of your words. I LIVE my words every day, in every way. I am not the one coming and posting lies and frauds and deceits here.

You are posting your opinions, and they are based on a abyssal lack of factual data. I think and I feel, while entirely human, are not exactly facts. As such, they are only of value to YOU.

You are HIDING behind you monitor throwing so many insults after me, just try and do that face to face. And you think that we are skeptic about the masons because we really deep down want to join, YOU ARE SO HIGH ON YOU SELF it�s an embarrassment to your kind.

Uh, Neon, old buddy? I am not the one hiding behind a childish moniker like Neon Helmet or Baron Bilbo Baggins... I am hanging it right out here, in front of everyone, with my real name and lodge affiliation... in case you missed it, my name is R. Theron Dunn, and I am the Junior Warden of Evergreen Lodge #259, Free and Accepted Masons of the State of California, operating in Riverside, Calfornia. Our lodge is located at 5801 Chicago Avenue, Riverside, Ca, and we meet there every Wednesday night at 7pm (except in August, when the lodge is dark).

As for high on myself, I am high on MASONRY, and I am offering my OPINIONS on the folks that I have seen posting, based on the twaddle that they post. If you have some FACT to back up your opinion, I have asked you several times to post them... all I see are worthless conjectures based on a serious lack of facts...

But, hey, prove me wrong... just don't expect me to be impressed with playground chest thumping and offers of violence. It only makes you look stupid and childish. Grow up a little and come back when you don't have to ask mommy to use the computer, ok? Sheesh.

Theron Dunn
there are some things in life that folks that have not earned a RIGHT to attend, cannot attend. Period

I am glad this thread got started, it is you that are iput n a bad light right now, and it�s unbelievable, if your order really stood for what you say you would have been thrown out a long time ago. You are the opposite of the values you claim to uphold.

I say you are wrong, but am willing to entertain a correction on behavior from anyone, if it is valid, and offer an apology if one is due. Please, show me where I have been less than masonic with you, or anyone here on this forum, or, frankly, anywhere in the world... If you can do that, I will offer an apology, but don't just toss out this twaddle and expect us all to suck it up like mother's milk...

Neon Helmet
I SAY LETS GET IT ON!

And I say, grow up and come back when you have your emotions under a tad bit more control, eh?

If you wish to criticize anyone, come with facts or go home looking stupid. Your choice. I offer facts, not half baked konspiracy kookery. Show me some facts to back up your opinions or EXPECT to be laughed at... you ask for debate and to be taken seriously, but, you don't take YOURSELF seriously, go back and look at your posts... so how or why should anyone else when you try to act as some kind of mediator/moderator/ambassador?

[edit on 10/2/2004 by esther]

esther:

Re: Public Gadfly.

Look up "Mike Gentry" and "Masonry." There might be a connection.

To re-cap on what someone else said, Masonry as a an organization doesn't have a stand on social security...in many countries where Masonry exists, Social Security does not even exist. It is therefore a political issue, and exists only in the US.

However, Social Security was initiated, instituted, and strengthened under the administrations of two Freemasons: Brothers Franklin D. Roosevelt and Harry S. Truman.

Fiat Lvx.

esther.


O.K.- I see where you're coming from I believe.
How you can say I �rile up everyone� is beyond me. I am trying to get some masonic stuff 'on the record at ATS' so the pro-masons can't DENY IGNORANCE with the seeming impunity they have for so long. As with Christianity, even philosophies that at some time or other have hard high purpose often become the tool of others.

That is beside the point of your post (I think)
Sam Houston-
One of my personal heroes. I have quoted him in political gatherings for many, many years. Sam Houston once said:
�a democracy is rule of the majority but with the rights of the minority held sacred�

That is some heavy thought in my book. Heavy. He challenged his own countrymen about leaving the union- he was thrown out (physically) but did not waiver in this. Sam had realized he made mistakes in life and was not going to make another.

I also have scotch ancestry, and Texas/Comanche (although the family says Cherokee). I have ancestors that were preachers, horse thieves and Rangers in and out of Texas. I have ancestors that owned slaves and stole wives, robbed stage coaches and were hanged or shot in their sleep. My ancestors were just like yours- Americans. My ancestors from europe didn't carry their own gold- they were 'bondsmen' and carried the gold of others.

So, here's my Sam Houston sold his countrymen out because of masonry tale-

ATS thread about Sam Houston, a little past half way down the page.

I trust you can see where I'm coming from whether you agree with my conclusions or not. Sam Houston was nothing more nor less than human- he was no ghaud. He flew with the eagles and wallowed with the pigs. Texas owes its initial independence if not in whole to him then at least heavily to him. He had great foresight and an uncommon patience.

Btw- �remember Goliad� was much more applicable to that time then the Alamo thing.

If you want further thoughts on Houston, let me know.

*edit to add the following

LTD
esther:

Re: Public Gadfly.

Look up "Mike Gentry" and "Masonry." There might be a connection.

And this adds what to any discussion?

More masonic side-way slide-

tsk, tsk



[edit on 5/9/2004 by PublicGadfly]

[edit on 10/2/2004 by esther]

[edit on 10/2/2004 by esther]