Pope: Pedophilia Was "Fully In Conformity With Man And Even With Children"

reply to post by rebellender


I do. You assume an equal distributions of pedos in every religious community. On what scientific basis do you claim this? What is the constant? what is the variable? what is the proof.

It's quite simple. He who calls me to deny ignorance must now prove his own lack of.

I recall I am one of the few who actually looked up the source, and found it to be falsifying what the Pope said. Not may others did this. Most, including yourself, jumped on the catholic-bashing bandwagon.

I as a member of ATS, and an American, and most importantly, a Christian, simply do not rush to assumptions, conclusions, and ignorance filled hate. I am only asking you to do the same, and to prove you are not doing so when you have very clearly. Plain and simple, really.

reply to post by Gorman91


Can't blame people given the church's atrocious handling of such cases in the past

reply to post by MrXYZ


Yes you can. If local communities lynched ran out of town these priests, I imagine the problem would dissolve quite quickly. The body of Christ must quickly act to remove these cancers. First peacefully, then violently, for the greater good.

Oh yes be civil about it. Have a fast and speedy trial. But the moment guilt is true, murder or exile are the only answers.

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by rebellender

 

I do. You assume an equal distributions of pedos in every religious community. On what scientific basis do you claim this? What is the constant? what is the variable? what is the proof.

It's quite simple. He who calls me to deny ignorance must now prove his own lack of.

I recall I am one of the few who actually looked up the source, and found it to be falsifying what the Pope said. Not may others did this. Most, including yourself, jumped on the catholic-bashing bandwagon.

I as a member of ATS, and an American, and most importantly, a Christian, simply do not rush to assumptions, conclusions, and ignorance filled hate. I am only asking you to do the same, and to prove you are not doing so when you have very clearly. Plain and simple, really.

edit on 15-11-2011 by Gorman91 because: (no reason given)

edit on 15-11-2011 by Gorman91 because: (no reason given)

actually Gorman91 I assume equal distributions of Pedo's, as you call them, Everywhere not just the religious community. The home, the schools the gyms the playgrounds, the parties the stores every where. Ephesians 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
The Pedo's you speak of exercise their free will and then if caught the justice system gets them. I am good with it.

Now between you and me I am so done entertaining your whimsical use of ATS SPACE...could I be any more clear with you, Gorman91

reply to post by rebellender


You use a completely irrelevant quote to what your saying. What, you can quote the Bible. congratulations so can I. You fail to prove true your assumptions as well.

In fact, this is simply not true. Some communities murder such men, on the spot. No trial, no law. Simply murder the cancer. And it is no laughing matter that many places have nothing short of failed to do as descent a job as they ought to in the removal of this trait in society.


Fact is, it is not even. Some religions kill them, others forgive them. Some places crown them as wonderful people; elders to the community. Other places seek their deaths to the utmost degree.

So you see. It's simple. You are wrong. And that is why we do not hear of it in other church communities. It's really quite simple. Some trait in the catholic church encourages their presence more so than other religions. Scientific analysis must be used to discover what this trait is, and then the causer of it removed and it's causers murdered in the streets, with their bodies broken open for all to see.

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by rebellender

 

murder such men, on the spot. kill them, murder their bodies

edit on 15-11-2011 by Gorman91 because: (no reason given)

edit on 15-11-2011 by Gorman91 because: (no reason given)

go ahead be my guest, google pedo's, find out where they live and do it.....dont be a talker but a do'er of the word

reply to post by rebellender


Why should I go out and seek sin? Nope. I encounter it enough, and fight it where it is. Should I feel called to go out and do that, I would do it. I have felt called to go out, find a homeless person, and feed them, and answered the call. I have felt called to go out and help those in need, and answered the call. I have heard no call to seek out pedophilia priests and give them a verbal beat down, though should I find one, I will. I rely not on my own understanding of where I am needed. I merely feel a tug to go somewhere, and follow, and near always find where I'm needed. I don't make plans, I simply follow along seeing where I am needed.

Like I said, we have rules. I'd favor a crusade against those priests, and would gladly partake in it, but that would violate the laws of the land. Can't go against the laws you live under as simply as that. Though if I discovered a priest porno ring, I can not be held responsible for my actions in such anger. You see I cannot say what I would do if I saw such a thing. I never have. I cannot tell you how I would react. I can simply say I want them dead, and that, based of previous reactions to events of anger in my life, there's a high chance that priest would be killed. Because I cannot honestly anticipate what I would do in blood thirsty range against oppression to that scale. And the honest truth is, I doubt a jury would do much to find me guilty if such a course of action where ever taken.

Bring me a pedophile and a court case won, however, and I'd gladly take out a rifle and take the shot if he was given the death penalty. I'm not dedicating my life to seeking out the murder of sinners. I go out to change them.

Thus it is quite simple. I want them dead. I want them lynched. I want a mob of people to take them out of their corrupted churches and their bowels spilled on the streets and their whole essence destroyed. I want other priests thinking similarly to be cast in such fear they would never even think of such things. I want them so afraid of such a thing they'd be more willing to chop off their parts than dare let their corruption hit them. I want such priests executed once found guilty, and completely eradicated from society. I don't often care for the death penalty, but in my book, rape is worse than murder. Hell, I want such people in general to have utter destruction poured upon them. But.... This is what I want. Not what God wants. Not what the law says. Or hell. Maybe that is what God wants. But that still isn't what the law of the land says I can do.


There is a difference between desire and actions. Reality and mere dream.

What do you do besides pass assumptions on entire groups and try to use the word incorrectly to silence those right and distract them from where you are wrong? Not yet have you proved how you can say such things of equal distribution. Still waiting.

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by rebellender

 

Why should I go out and seek sin? Nope. I encounter it enough, and fight it where it is. Should I feel called to go out and do that, I would do it. I have felt called to go out, find a homeless person, and feed them, and answered the call. I have felt called to go out and help those in need, and answered the call. I have heard no call to seek out pedophilia priests and give them a verbal beat down, though should I find one, I will. I rely not on my own understanding of where I am needed. I merely feel a tug to go somewhere, and follow, and near always find where I'm needed. I don't make plans, I simply follow along seeing where I am needed.

Like I said, we have rules. I'd favor a crusade against those priests, and would gladly partake in it, but that would violate the laws of the land. Can't go against the laws you live under as simply as that. Though if I discovered a priest porno ring, I can not be held responsible for my actions in such anger. You see I cannot say what I would do if I saw such a thing. I never have. I cannot tell you how I would react. I can simply say I want them dead, and that, based of previous reactions to events of anger in my life, there's a high chance that priest would be killed. Because I cannot honestly anticipate what I would do in blood thirsty range against oppression to that scale. And the honest truth is, I doubt a jury would do much to find me guilty if such a course of action where ever taken.

Bring me a pedophile and a court case won, however, and I'd gladly take out a rifle and take the shot if he was given the death penalty. I'm not dedicating my life to seeking out the murder of sinners. I go out to change them.

Thus it is quite simple. I want them dead. I want them lynched. I want a mob of people to take them out of their corrupted churches and their bowels spilled on the streets and their whole essence destroyed. I want other priests thinking similarly to be cast in such fear they would never even think of such things. I want them so afraid of such a thing they'd be more willing to chop off their parts than dare let their corruption hit them. I want such priests executed once found guilty, and completely eradicated from society. I don't often care for the death penalty, but in my book, rape is worse than murder. Hell, I want such people in general to have utter destruction poured upon them. But.... This is what I want. Not what God wants. Not what the law says. Or hell. Maybe that is what God wants. But that still isn't what the law of the land says I can do.


There is a difference between desire and actions. Reality and mere dream.

What do you do besides pass assumptions on entire groups and try to use the word incorrectly to silence those right and distract them from where you are wrong? Not yet have you proved how you can say such things of equal distribution. Still waiting.

edit on 15-11-2011 by Gorman91 because: (no reason given)

edit on 15-11-2011 by Gorman91 because: (no reason given)

edit on 15-11-2011 by Gorman91 because: (no reason given)

edit on 15-11-2011 by Gorman91 because: (no reason given)

I live a fit an moral life. I fulfill all my desires....bye now

reply to post by rebellender


That's folly for you to say and individualistic. Hell morality doesn't even exist outside the bedroom and sex life. Why choose such words? You still have not justified your claims, and instead choose to leave in shame. Be my guest.

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by MrXYZ

 

Yes you can. If local communities lynched ran out of town these priests, I imagine the problem would dissolve quite quickly. The body of Christ must quickly act to remove these cancers. First peacefully, then violently, for the greater good.

Oh yes be civil about it. Have a fast and speedy trial. But the moment guilt is true, murder or exile are the only answers.

edit on 15-11-2011 by Gorman91 because: (no reason given)

Instead, the church DEMONSTRALBLY tried to hide those molestation cases...even tranferring priests instead of handing them over to the law. I guess in Catholicism you're above the law if you're a child molestor

The current pope (who's basically a mass murderer by telling Africans not to use condoms) was even part of a committee that wrote an entire manual on how to hide those cases!!!

reply to post by MrXYZ


Not so sure about that. And I don't see the condom issue as murder. It's a religion. You cannot tell a religion to conform to your view of morality. In Christianity, Sex is for married people and only for either love or making children in those conditions. This is what the moral code says. This is what the Bible says. You cannot call it murder because it is their faith. A core virtue. Not some "kill the none believers" thing. Simply put, an ethics life style. Religions don't bend to your view of morality. I think instead it is a form of scapegoating someone. After all, they wouldn't have aids problems if they followed the full law. You either follow the full law or don't. Don't go half way and lie to yourself that you are going full way. Those in Africa whom have sex without a condom do so on their own free will. If you claim their absolute dedication to their faith is the reason for this.... they wouldn't be having premarital sex to begin with.

I haven't seen any records on him actively trying to hide such cases of pedos either. I need sources.

All I know is that such priests ought to be killed or arrested. Don't blame anybody but the community they are in for not doing this to the fullest extend of their abilities. These problems only arise from a weak community of distant believers. That's probably why these things don't happen in many protestant areas. In protestant faiths, community is a necessary aspect of faith. Quite frankly, you never don't have eyes on your conduct. A failure will be noticed. Catholicism is too hierarchical and distant from the community. People just go to church and have their circle bread. In religion, you either have faith, or a drug to calm your fear of lack there of.

reply to post by Gorman91

You cannot call it murder because it is their faith.

That's what the jihadists who flew into the WTC would say too. Doesn't make it right

You either follow the full law or don't.

But not following a non-legal law shouldn't get you killed if it's preventable...and it is! What the Catholic church is doing is about the same as telling cops to stop wearing bulletproof vestes

Those in Africa whom have sex without a condom do so on their own free will. If you claim their absolute dedication to their faith is the reason for this.... they wouldn't be having premarital sex to begin with.

The church has power over those people, and can make them do "easy" stuff...like telling them to not use condoms. But it doesn't have enough power to totally control human nature, and sex is part of that.

I haven't seen any records on him actively trying to hide such cases of pedos either. I need sources.

Link

All I know is that such priests ought to be killed or arrested. Don't blame anybody but the community they are in for not doing this to the fullest extend of their abilities.

I agree, and that's EXACTLY what I'm doing...because it's a proven FACT that the church tries to hide and blatantly covers up child molestation cases.

reply to post by MrXYZ

That's what the jihadists who flew into the WTC would say too. Doesn't make it right

Are they killing the infidels and pillaging and raping in the name of God? Or merely living to please their lord in simple matters...like keeping it in your pants. Quite different worlds. Let not the actions of less than 1% of a religion dictate what is good or bad.

But not following a non-legal law shouldn't get you killed if it's preventable...and it is! What the Catholic church is doing is about the same as telling cops to stop wearing bulletproof vestes

And if we continue with that, it would be a situation in which you wouldn't need them. If you're not going to wear a condom, but break the laws of morality and have sex with everyone, then I'm sorry, you're retarded and you deserve what happens to you.

The church has power over those people, and can make them do "easy" stuff...like telling them to not use condoms. But it doesn't have enough power to totally control human nature, and sex is part of that.

No it's not. I find it quite easy to control. I don't go trying to get into a girl's pants. I don't go sexing around. Hell, there's always masturbation if you're that weak of mind. And hell I'll admit I can will myself to cease and desist such disgusting tendencies at any point I want. Been clean for a few weeks now. If you are weak of will, then don't blame religion. Blame your self.

You can stop yourself. And if you must sin, It makes perfect sense to use a condom to not suffer the world another. I repeat. If you're that retarded, let natural selection deal with you.



These videos are not proof insomuch as a lack of efficiency. The church handles possession cases and investigations into saints the same way. Secretly. I have no idea why, they just do. This is not in any way religion, it's policy. So protest away. It can change. I honestly don't disagree with their policy to bringing these sick people into places of reeducation. What I care about is the state. The law. The punishment. What they do. That is the responsibility of the community. That is the responsibility of the locals. And I don't expect the leader of a billion people to be in any way able to do this efficiently. I simply see them as old inefficient men, and quite frankly, they need to get serious. I repeat again. If they had a strong community, we would know before anything happened, and people would act. In protestant groups, such people are reeducated quick;y, or utterly rejected from a community. Who usually does the slaughtering of sinners, I ask? Evangelicals, or priests? Evangelicals I tell you. You want this to be no more, you must evangelize the Catholics. I see it happening slowly.

The church is a corporation. Corporations get raided. If I ever get to be mayor of New York city, I will be doing just that with such cases. New York is the American Rome. You want policy change, you start it there.

reply to post by Gorman91

Are they killing the infidels and pillaging and raping in the name of God? Or merely living to please their lord in simple matters...like keeping it in your pants. Quite different worlds. Let not the actions of less than 1% of a religion dictate what is good or bad.

Well, telling Africans to not use condoms kills more of them than die due to global terrorism. So given how much we focus on terrorists, shouldn't we focus a bit more on something that kills waaaaaaaay more people?

And if we continue with that, it would be a situation in which you wouldn't need them. If you're not going to wear a condom, but break the laws of morality and have sex with everyone, then I'm sorry, you're retarded and you deserve what happens to you.

Who's morality? Yours? The popes? Islam? Hinduism? What gives you or anyone the right to dicate other people's morality? Morals aren't the same as laws!!! And sex is perfectly natural, it's part of human nature. You chose to suppress your human nature because (and with) your religion, and that's your right. But judging others who don't share your religion (that isn't based on any rationality or logic by the way) is not only petty, but in the Catholic church's case killing people.

As for the rest, it's NOT inefficiency, the pope and a ton of people in the Vatican actively tried to cover up stuff...and even went as far as firing priests that disagreed with that practice!!

LINK

reply to post by MrXYZ

Well, telling Africans to not use condoms kills more of them than die due to global terrorism. So given how much we focus on terrorists, shouldn't we focus a bit more on something that kills waaaaaaaay more people?

No. Because the leading cause of death is living. And evidence says listening to what your government wants you to listen to is ill for your health.

What people do of their own free will is their choice. I say again, if you are not wearing a condom because the pope said so but have sex with random people, you get what you deserve and your lot is no concern to me.

Who's morality? Yours? The popes? Islam? Hinduism? What gives you or anyone the right to dicate other people's morality?

Simple. Morality as the world has defined it doesn't exist. Morality is only ever mentioned in the bible in regards to sexuality. Bible is pretty simple. Don't have sex with random people. That's literally the definition of morality in the bible. Keep it in your pants. This is consistent with logic and common sense. if you go against this, it's simply you being retarded, and you get what you deserve. I have no sympathy for these people. They get what's coming to them. I tell them it is wrong, they do it anyway. If they wish to follow half the law, then in accordance to my beliefs, they get half a life. Let natural selection take care of such people.

And sex is perfectly natural, it's part of human nature. You chose to suppress your human nature because (and with) your religion, and that's your right. But judging others who don't share your religion (that isn't based on any rationality or logic by the way) is not only petty, but in the Catholic church's case killing people.

But they claim to share my belief system. Therefore they either conform, or get what's coming to them. I really don't give a damn about the consequences of their piss poor choices in life. Like I said. I have no sympathy for them. They chose that life. They chose to do that.

And it's not even suppressing. Why are you forcing your views of morality on me, eh? It's simple. I turn off my sexuality. I can do that, you know. Anybody can, really. You can, in fact, turn off your emotional responses to situations. People do it quite often with anger, greed, etc etc. Why can't you simply apply it to lust as I have? My mind goes places. With any gender, with any race, with any person. it does. LOL, to quote Louis C.K., 26.media.tumblr.com... Yes, that's what my mind does, and I can turn it off whenever if I catch myself. And when it does, I turn it off. The fact you have failed to train your mind as well as mine with regards to sexuality is your choice. I yes, sometimes I forget to turn it off. And my mind fantasies in any way it desires. And eventually I realize this is fantasy, and reality has certain codes of common sense. And as such, I remove it from my thoughts.

And as to natural, humanity is not natural. In fact, I fail to see how sex is natural when we literally do it upside down compared to other species, and the child birth process is incredibly violent. Sex for humans, simply put, is the most unnatural broken part of our species. And yes, it feels good. So how can you even use the word natural when we don't even know what is natural for humanity? Natural is defined as something in tune with nature...a system. Humans are not in tune with nature, nor have they been for a long time Nor so we even know what is natural for man, for we are a young species and not enough data is known. 2,000 years ago it was considered perfectly normal to go to a circus to see a man die from a lion. 3,000 years ago it was considered perfectly natural to go and have sex with young boys in Greece. 10,000 years ago it was considered perfectly natural to pile up multi ton bricks in Turkey and worship animals. Humans do not have natural tendencies. We are in constant flux, change, and dynamics. Always changing. Natural does not exist for the human condition.

As for the rest, it's NOT inefficiency, the pope and a ton of people in the Vatican actively tried to cover up stuff...and even went as far as firing priests that disagreed with that practice!!

But was it for their own investigation and policy? Or was it to hide it. Were they sure of guilt yet? How do we know without a trial. And if a trial occurred, why do they still breathe?

I repeat yet again. In an established community of believers, these things don't happen. Because people know before it happens. And deal with the problem. I don't know why they want to handle these things their way. But I haven't seen why it is a desire to hide it. These things do not stay hidden. There is no reason to hide it for the purpose to keep it secret. But it makes sense if they want to reeducate such people.

Irregardless, I don't care about the churches policy. I'm an American. I care about the rule of law. Was there a trial? and if so, why is he still breathing?

reply to post by Gorman91

I say again, if you are not wearing a condom because the pope said so but have sex with random people, you get what you deserve and your lot is no concern to me.

It's moments like this when Christian empathy shines brightest, when they really live according to that "you shall not judge" mantra, right?

So wait, because they don't follow YOUR moral code, they deserve to die?? Are you for real? That's a Hitler'esque statement!!

Simple. Morality as the world has defined it doesn't exist. Morality is only ever mentioned in the bible in regards to sexuality. Bible is pretty simple. Don't have sex with random people. That's literally the definition of morality in the bible. Keep it in your pants. This is consistent with logic and common sense. if you go against this, it's simply you being retarded, and you get what you deserve. I have no sympathy for these people. They get what's coming to them. I tell them it is wrong, they do it anyway. If they wish to follow half the law, then in accordance to my beliefs, they get half a life. Let natural selection take care of such people.

Given that the bible also states people can survive inside whales, or that there was a global flood we know never happened...it's beyond ridiculous of you to pretty much tell people "adapt to those illogical codes or die, and I believe you deserve to die if you don't follow those codes". That's the very same argumentation the Muslim terrorists use! They too consider their interpretation of the moral code the "only true way"...guess fundamentalists are always the same, on all sides

But they claim to share my belief system. Therefore they either conform, or get what's coming to them.

Same argument again, you or the church has no right to kill people simply because they don't fully follow your moral codes

I fail to see how sex is natural when we literally do it upside down compared to other species

Newsflash: Have you ever tried doggy style?

Saying sex isn't natural when the vast majority on this planet has been doing so for thousands of years is ridiculous...and animals do it too by the way.

But was it for their own investigation and policy? Or was it to hide it. Were they sure of guilt yet? How do we know without a trial. And if a trial occurred, why do they still breathe?

Oh comon', you can't be that naive...it's the POPE!! There's no way a court would ever consider putting him on trial. But plenty of priests were put on trial, including BISHOPS.

Those priests weren't a "fringe group", they were at the very centre of the church!! And often high ranking church leaders too

reply to post by MrXYZ

It's moments like this when Christian empathy shines brightest, when they really live according to that "you shall not judge" mantra, right?

Oh but no. You love them, and help them. But recognize they got there for a reason. I care not for their lot, in this case, because they are hypocrites.

You see I don't care for hypocrites. I will love them, listen to them (after all, they should know better), but I don't care for their lot. They are hypocrites. They are not doers of the word. That doesn't mean I wouldn't love them and help them. I met a homeless man once. Had an argument with him when I bought him food. He wanted beer, or money for beer. I showed him love in this argument though. Told him that yea, I am a moma's boy and all that, but I'm working to be better and you should too. He asked for my chain, and I said it was a family air loom. Now every time I feel it while scratching my neck, I remember him and pray. Do I honestly care for him? This man is was the definition of bad in humanity. And yet I still must love him. I cannot explain this contradiction. My heart aches for him, but I wouldn't care if he died from alcohol poisoning.

So wait, because they don't follow YOUR moral code, they deserve to die?? Are you for real? That's a Hitler'esque statement!!

Did not say they deserve to die. I said they get what they deserve. Hypocracy is a hell of an irony.

Given that the bible also states people can survive inside whales, or that there was a global flood we know never happened...it's beyond ridiculous of you to pretty much tell people "adapt to those illogical codes or die, and I believe you deserve to die if you don't follow those codes". That's the very same argumentation the Muslim terrorists use! They too consider their interpretation of the moral code the "only true way"...guess fundamentalists are always the same, on all sides

Actually no. Dude was dead in the whale, and resuscitated after getting spit out. And we do know a flood of some sort happened before civilization as we know it. And there's plenty of ways it could have happened, but that's off topic religious bickering. Getting off topic.

Same argument again, you or the church has no right to kill people simply because they don't fully follow your moral codes

I care more for the preservation of nonbelievers than the hypocrites of my own. I have no reasoning behind this thought process. To explain it in simple terms, those that do not know God deserve ore time to. Those that do know God and are hypocritical to that, deserve the punishment they receive. And that applies to me too. I deserve death in my own eyes.

Newsflash: Have you ever tried doggy style?

That's quite uncomfortable. Humans evolved emotions and complex facial movements. It's believed this evolution in part was due to the fact we face each other in sex, and sex is an emotional experience. Sound logic. idk. In my mind "doddy style", been in its given title, has inherently inhuman characteristics.

Saying sex isn't natural when the vast majority on this planet has been doing so for thousands of years is ridiculous...and animals do it too by the way.

So is murder, drugs, and corruption natural too?

Oh comon', you can't be that naive...it's the POPE!! There's no way a court would ever consider putting him on trial. But plenty of priests were put on trial, including BISHOPS.

Call me the ironies. I, as a Christian of Catholic origins, would love to do this. It would be an orchestrated drama for all the world to see. Beauty in art. The cringe of dire old men forced to face the crimes of their long life. In every sense of the word, the oldest and wisest of Christians must inherently be most deserving of death and embarrassment if he be a hypocrite and a dire sinner.

Those priests weren't a "fringe group", they were at the very centre of the church!! And often high ranking church leaders too

Same can be said for politicians. But how many know the life behind the bedroom. I find it no surprise that those people seem the most disconnected from their communities.

reply to post by Gorman91

Did not say they deserve to die. I said they get what they deserve. Hypocracy is a hell of an irony.

And what they "get" is DEATH because the church tells them not to use condoms. And they tell them that based not on any logic or rationality, but rather blind faith. They are causing thousands of deaths every single year!

So if you say they get what they deserve, and they get death, then you are saying they deserve to die. And that's beyond disgusting...and very similar to Muslim terrorists. It's people like you, making statements like that, that give Christians a bad rep

That's quite uncomfortable. Humans evolved emotions and complex facial movements. It's believed this evolution in part was due to the fact we face each other in sex, and sex is an emotional experience. Sound logic. idk. In my mind "doddy style", been in its given title, has inherently inhuman characteristics.

Animals have facial expressions too...and monkeys do it both ways too

Actually no. Dude was dead in the whale, and resuscitated after getting spit out. And we do know a flood of some sort happened before civilization as we know it. And there's plenty of ways it could have happened, but that's off topic religious bickering. Getting off topic.

It's not bickering because if the very basis of your belief is demonstrably wrong, then you should seriously question the rest. And when it comes to a TON of stuff, the bible is demonstrably wrong. We know for a FACT a global flood never happened because there's ZERO geological evidence...and an event of that scale would 100% leave behind such evidence.

So if the bible is clearly wrong there...think about the rest

So is murder, drugs, and corruption natural too?

Murder can have a ton of reasons behind them...greed, jealousy, hunger...some of them are natural, others aren't. Drugs are totally natural, hell, animals take drugs too. And corruption is a matter of perspective...laws vary greatly.

Same can be said for politicians. But how many know the life behind the bedroom. I find it no surprise that those people seem the most disconnected from their communities.

How does that make the church covering up stuff any better?

reply to post by MrXYZ

And what they "get" is DEATH because the church tells them not to use condoms. And they tell them that based not on any logic or rationality, but rather blind faith. They are causing thousands of deaths every single year!

And they choose to only go half way. You not yet have told me how the church is at fault for causing people to say yes to half of what the church says, but no to the other half. You either have sex with condoms, or don't use them, wait till marriage, and use sex intelligently. On a purely practical sense, the later is better. Being driven by sexual desires is nothing short of adolescent.

So if you say they get what they deserve, and they get death, then you are saying they deserve to die. And that's beyond disgusting...and very similar to Muslim terrorists. It's people like you, making statements like that, that give Christians a bad rep

In God's eyes everyone deserves death. The older I get the more I tend to thing this is true. But you are switching back and forth now. Saying what I think is the same as my religion. I don't think this is so. I am still learning my religion. It says all men deserve death. I agree to this in faith. When did God tell humanity to commit suicide though? He didn't. How does one resolve this contradiction? I have no idea. But mixing what I say, what God says, and what the church says, is nothing less than your own ignorance.

Animals have facial expressions too...and monkeys do it both ways too

And these facial expressions are evidence to what has happened in evolution. Left overs from the common ancestor. Clearly the fact that an ape is similar to form to a man means some similar traits would evolve, no? However, it is not at the same level. And plenty of primates have sex as if it is totally irrelevant to emotion, like gibbons. I am not talking about them. They have their own nature. I am talking about human minds. Human evolution. So again, stop mixing it up to fit your point of view. Gibbons have sex with their mothers to say hello. Humans do not.

It's not bickering because if the very basis of your belief is demonstrably wrong, then you should seriously question the rest. And when it comes to a TON of stuff, the bible is demonstrably wrong. We know for a FACT a global flood never happened because there's ZERO geological evidence...and an event of that scale would 100% leave behind such evidence. So if the bible is clearly wrong there...think about the rest

I can imagine plenty of ways for it to occur. Check out some of those lame dwarf star posts. You do realize that a near miss would cause a sudden acceleration in rotation, raising up the sea level due to centripetal forces, and covering all the Earth? What evidence for this would there be? I don't think there could be. Geological evidence is billions of years old. Any tampering with them, because it is purely on the surface level, either corrodes away and cannot be identified, or simply is assumed to be part of that time period. I mean, unless we actually found a piece of technology, we'd assume a human footprint in the Permian must be from a human who dug down there and walked over it. But there's no means to know for sure that's not some time traveler. All evidence is gone. Erosion from a brief few centuries would erase any biological or tectonic proof it isn't a time traveler or that it is. Science cannot test what no longer exists for dating.

Murder can have a ton of reasons behind them...greed, jealousy, hunger...some of them are natural, others aren't. Drugs are totally natural, hell, animals take drugs too. And corruption is a matter of perspective...laws vary greatly.

And that's why natural is not a justification. The rule of law is. Congratulations. You just proved why we should never trust what is natural. Death is natural, and we are killing the planet, whose natural patterns are far older than we. If we go with natural, we should all commit suicide.

Mr Richard Dawkins has come up with some absolutely amazing ideas involving memes and genes, using science and what can be proven as justification for law, not what is "natural". After all, if genes are competing for reproduction and memes are competing for cultural replication, than genes and memes are at odds, because memes can cause a stalemate in pure reproduction, meaning genes are the slaves of memes. If memes are above the hierarchy, and what makes a human more than just a gene machine, that individuals deserve protection, because we are defined by our ability to develop and invent memes, as well as temes. That's what makes us human. The ability to fabricate and exponentially grow them. And after all, the exponential nature of genes is what make them so. Thus the only real memes and temes are those produced by a human. Thus we deserve protection, as it is clear this is producing increasing complexity and relationships that serve to increase our own value and ability to compete and live. If memes can be values, than some are better than others. The most important ones that replicate must be indicators of what the human being is justifiably responsible to have. For our species, these are life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Suddenly we have a purely objective reasoning for those rights, at least in theory.

How does that make the church covering up stuff any better?

It doesn't. It merely reserves the right to Innocent without any proof. Rule of law. You are innocent until proven guilty.

reply to post by Gorman91

Suddenly we have a purely objective reasoning for those rights, at least in theory.

Not so quick. There are quite a few purely subjective jumps in what you wrote:

If memes are above the hierarchy, and what makes a human more than just a gene machine, that individuals deserve protection, because we are defined by our ability to develop and invent memes, as well as temes.

Thus we deserve protection, as it is clear this is producing increasing complexity and relationships that serve to increase our own value and ability to compete and live.

The most important ones that replicate must be indicators of what the human being is justifiably responsible to have. For our species, these are life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Stop pushing your opinions as some objective truth, you have no basis for it.