Who's up for the challenge ?

Levellor

According to you, Freemasonry is the big, bad evil in this world but the problem is, that you're so concentrated and blind in your hatred, that you can't really see what's going on.

Ahh, finally!

For the record I do NOT hate masonry/Freemasonry

That is pretty clear isn't it?

LTD602

Masonry is, in fact, growing. Especially among young people.

So is AIDS, syphilus, gonorrehea, prostitution, drug abuse-

Strange company to keep- and brag about!

Maybe the 'youth' in masonry will get some of the old guys out of the lodge- I can't see it happening.

theron dunn

based on observation. Slander is knowingly causing incorrect information to be published in a manner designed to bring ridicule upon the subject of the statement... And, just for the record, I agree with his assessment of you...

Get rid of that hanger- it is drawing waves into your Fez and causing you confusion.
You 'think' I have slandered masonry?

NO you don't. This is more masonic mumbo-jumbo. IF you really thought that then your ever present lawyers would have already sent me a special package. I haven't received one.

But I'll tell you what (because I'm such a fair minded soul)-
I almost told you where I'm from but we'll wait more for denial of ignorance on that,
my locale is such that I can guarantee 90%+ of any jury will have close family that are masons or wannabe masons and the jury will be right-wing conservatives. Unless an outside judge were brought in the judge would be a mason (all of them are).

You start off with two strikes against me- sound fair?

I look forward to a special delivery so that I can bring masonry before these simple folks that still believe in America. (I have lots of masonic literature and two copies of Pike's tomes as well- evidence and all)

Have I slandered masonry or are you making bogus claims theron?

troylawson

think truth should be ABSOLUTE. Meaning truth=truth. Truth is never conditional and is always true in all cases for all people or else it ceases to be truth by definition. There's none of this 'your truth isn't my truth' smack. It is or it isn't.

Show me proof of what you from an unbiased source. Point me in the right direction.

Leveller
That's a hard thing to do.

Obviously-

Mormons were masons at one time- a secrecy thing I guess, yuk, yuk

Jo. Smith was the 'worshipful master' of his lodge as was Brig. Young!

'two big dogs can''t share the same dish'???

Here troy, masonry in action= no free speech!

MaskedAvatar

My favorite radio station - which I have sponsored for many years - was into a bit of Masonic bashing this morning (stupid breakfast host). Fixed it up with the station manager by reminding them how Freemasonry has direct ties with their student body - funding 2 Chairs in the Med school and providing for over 30 tertiary scholarships per year.

Money=power=control

You ever see that Star Trek stuff about the Borg?? Kind of a soft approach to masonry.

All the hospitals and things- the Nazis built those too, didn't they?

Let's be clear here, "are we clear, are we clear?!!" (Jack Nicholson)

Everything that the masons do they receive something back- EVERYTHING!

Find a doctor at one of their hospitals- gonna be a hard task coming to do this, but- ask him where he worked before HIS hospital miraculously lost funding and he took this new job at a little lower pay from the masons- of course he joined!

Take and give, take and give
Lot of groups have done that. It's nothing new. The masons have just perfected it.
(tax breaks non-masons pay for, grants, land, power)

Originally posted by PublicGadfly
For the record I do NOT hate masonry/Freemasonry

That is pretty clear isn't it?

No. It's not.
You're obviously not even aware of your own feelings on the subject.

You don't hate Freemasonry, yet in the next sentence you compare it with venereal disease? Then you compare it to the baddies in a sci-fi programme? Then you make the take and give comment?

The only thing clear here is that you are clearly confused.

I have talked to many Mormons and I can see were you are coming from, every question I asked they could not answer, it got to the point were one of them was so upset that he started yelling at me, I was only asking what I thought were simple questions.
Masons on the other hand have answered many questions that I have asked, BUT most Masons will not hand you anything on a silver platter.
I was told by one Mason that Freemasonry is all up to each individual�s interpretation, and then he asked "What does it mean to you?" I was asking one of those questions that I really didn't think any Mason could answer, this man took five minutes, but he gave me an answer, and an honest one at that. If you don't understand the answer, well let�s say every Mason has their own version of the truth about Freemasonry, every Mason will interpret the lessons learned in a different way, this is why there are no authoritative Masonic book or books, they are all simply interpretations of the Craft. IMHO every Master Mason holds the truth for his own Lodge and soul. (PG- this includes Pike and/or anyone else you chose to think of as an authority on Freemasonry)

As for the charity thing, Freemasons are not allowed to solicit; I personally think this is great. Does a good deed need to be published? No, there are plenty of good deeds done every day, but what do we see on the news and in the newspaper? Every bad deed done that day, with a little good somewhere in the middle, but the main focus is on the bad. So it is no wonder that Freemasons don't get unsolicited recognition for their good deeds. Furthermore, is a great act of kindness not the same great act even if it is not recognized as such?

A Story Of Freemason Charity:
I have a friend and her son is very ill. My friend works for minimum wage and therefore does not have a lot of money. Her son needed some testing done down in the States we/they are from Canada and live on Vancouver Island, so to get to the States was going to cost about one months salary, somewhere around $1000 for the whole trip and the testing was an extra $400. While in the hospital for one of the treatments her son receives, there were two men there, she told me they always came down to the hospital visit, she thinks the nurse must have told them (the men) about her being short on money for the trip. They gave her a $500 cheque, and asked for her address and phone number. One week later they (the men) came by her place and dropped off another cheque (that�s a check, for the Americans) for $1000, to say the least she got to the States and was able to take her other kids with her. What she thought was weird was at Christmas the two men dropped off some presents for her and all of her kids. She had no idea that they were Masons until she told me their names about 3 months ago and I happened to know them (as Masons).

Also Freemasonry is NOT a religion, you have to have your own faith/belief in order to be a Freemason (you have to believe that there is a superior/supreme being, i.e. "God", Allah, or even the divine energy/pure energy of the universe. If you have your own faith then Freemasonry will make a good man better (morals, values and virtue).

Freemasonry secrets, well I would look at it more of them keeping things in confidence, not "keeping a secret". Do we see what goes on behind the doors of a closed house meeting (whether it is a Government house or family house)? No. Even if our tax dollar is paying for the meeting and why would anyone expect to see a private family meeting, frankly it is none of our business.

BTW- I am not a Freemason, I study religion and about 7 years ago I came across a book (Behold a pale horse, which is complete tripe) sitting on a bench. After reading many anti-mason books, I started talking to Masons and reading neutral and pro-mason books. So I really have no bias, just facts and an opinion.

Sorry for the long post.

Originally posted by PublicGadfly

Levellor
You 'think' I have slandered masonry?

NO you don't. This is more masonic mumbo-jumbo. IF you really thought that then your ever present lawyers would have already sent me a special package. I haven't received one.

But I'll tell you what (because I'm such a fair minded soul)-
I almost told you where I'm from but we'll wait more for denial of ignorance on that, my locale is such that I can guarantee 90%+ of any jury will have close family that are masons or wannabe masons and the jury will be right-wing conservatives. Unless an outside judge were brought in the judge would be a mason (all of them are).

You start off with two strikes against me- sound fair?

What in g-d's name are you talking about?? I wrote that I agreed with LTD that you were a crazed coward, based on observation, and you go off on a tangent about what I am not sure...

I look forward to a special delivery so that I can bring masonry before these simple folks that still believe in America. (I have lots of masonic literature and two copies of Pike's tomes as well- evidence and all)

Have I slandered masonry or are you making bogus claims theron?

I think you are slandering masonry, but you, in your person and voice are so small and insignificant, that it is only a legal definition. There are no real damages, other than to YOUR reputation, hence it is not actionable.. capiche?

[edit on 8/9/04 by theron dunn]

---delete

[edit on 7-9-2004 by LTD602]

I have several US friends who are Masons. They tell me that they are allowed to discuss anything involved in Freemasonry prior to the 3rd degree (Master Mason). Additionally, I am told that the majority of police officers in the United States are linked to or members of Freemasonry. Just food for thought.

Originally posted by LTD602

Masonry is, in fact, growing. Especially among young people.

Originally posted by PublicGadfly

So is AIDS, syphilus, gonorrehea, prostitution, drug abuse-

Strange company to keep- and brag about!

Maybe the 'youth' in masonry will get some of the old guys out of the lodge- I can't see it happening.

From the Centers for Disease Control (CDC).



p.s. It's "Gonorrhea"

Those darn CDC guys on AIDS.

The HIV/AIDS Chart because the graphic is just to darn big.

CDC on Syphilis, GD please note spelling, you're wrong on the statistics, but at least spell the disease right.



It appears your statement is false; one could extrapolate the veracity of the bulk of your posts from a demonstration such as this. I have also noted another trend, you seem to refer to prostitution (that was the first time I�ve had to type the word on ATS) often, I will stop at that� just another �statistic�.

Medical Monkeys, not just for vivisection anymore...


[edit on 8/9/2004 by Mirthful Me]

Well, it certainly got Mike Gentry out of the Lodge.

Hopefully the youth can make more inroads of a similar nature.

I'm gratified that Masonry is being reinvigorated with young blood, and that I will soon be a part of it.

It's a great time to be a Mason.

Hi all,
"I have a 1931 copy of morals and dogma in hardback but i cant find that excerpt are you saying its on page 30? or chapter 3?"
TAKEN FROM ANOTHER THREAD

See, this is what I am talking about. You had a code of conduct published from the very begining, I would imagine, and updated from time to time. See I don't really have a problem with all that. That is very nice.



What I really have the problem with is you were not even forthcomming enough to even MENTION your published code of conduct.


I understand you want secrecy, and things should be secret, but when the average joe asks a direct question you may just consider answering straightaway. Honest answers work for me and gives the appearance that you have nothing to hide.


Gee why do you think people slam the masons. When you give the air of dishonesty what do you expect?

It is simple human communication. Someone asks a question, you answer it, it don't get much simpler than that guys.


Now if I want to see the code of conduct, do I just go to the masons website; I would guess www.masons.org.com or something to that nature?


I am not mad or angry, just don't betray my trust since I don't know squat about masons. I trust you to give me honest answers to my questions and just steer me in the right direction. And remember if I don't know or understand anything about masons, it is your fault because have not told me anything.

troylawson

Fair enough.

Rest assured, Troy, no one here meant to betray your trust.

You would make a good Mason, you have a strong character.

To be honest, pubilc image is not very high on the Masons' list. Masonry is not a political party, and since there are aknowledged mysteries in Masonry, it really is not important to be very transparent. Being a bit reticent, a bit closed-mouted is nothing against you, believe me, it is simply a habit.

What I really recommend, however, is that you call a local lodge, and just ask to meet a Mason, or attend an open house. Go out for a few beers with one of them, etc. No need to join if you feel it isn't for you or that it would be contrary to your values.

I hope that helps, Troy.

Mirthful MeIt appears your statement is false; one could extrapolate the veracity of the bulk of your posts from a demonstration such as this. I have also noted another trend, you seem to refer to prostitution (that was the first time I�ve had to type the word on ATS) often, I will stop at that� just another �statistic�.

Ex-tra-pole-ate all you want.

CDC stats, nice charts.

I never had any of those deisease, so if I misss-slpd one, it's just not in my spell-checker.

Never read about prostitution? Hmmm, wasn't Pike linked to it? Maybe that was someone else- watta ya think?

What a lame response, Gadfly. You know you were just one-upped and now you reach for some sort of accusation against Albert Pike, that has probably been addressed before.
The possibilty that Albert Pike was invovled in prostitution proves nothing about Masonry in 2004, or ever, for that matter.

Albert Pike was a pimp . . . lol. . . . . and a Confederate soldier, and a writer, advocate of justice for Native Americans, a journalist, a philosopher, and a prominent Washington lawyer.

Quite a pimp, he was.

The whole Albert Pike argument is played out - over quite a few threads. Look for something different, Gadfly.

NEXT !!

[edit on 8-9-2004 by LTD602]

[edit on 8-9-2004 by LTD602]

ROFLMFAO....I've heard a lot of BS about Albert Pike from Gadfly and his ilk over the years, but this is the first time I've ever seen him accused of being a pimp or involved in prostitution. This stuff is so ridiculous it doesn't even deserve a serious response, and only demonstrates the kinds of smear tactics used by the trolls.

Fiat Lvx.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
I've heard a lot of BS about Albert Pike over the years, but this is the first time I've ever seen him accused of being a pimp or involved in prostitution.

Haven't you read the Gadfly's version of Morals and Dogma, ML?
Here's an excerpt from Chapter 3.

"To understand literally da symbols 'n allegories of Oriental books as to ante-historical matters, be willfully to close our eyes against da Light, know what I'm sayin'? To translate da symbols into da trivial 'n commonplace, be da blunderin' of mediocrity.

All religious expression be symbolism; since we can describe only what we see, 'n da true objects of religion be THE SEEN n' #. Da earliest instruments of education wuz symbols; 'n they 'n all otha religious forms differed 'n still diffa accordin' to external circumstances 'n imagery, 'n accordin' to differences of knowledge 'n mental cultivation, know what I'm sayin'? All language be symbolic, so far as dat # be applied to mental 'n spiritual phenomena 'n action, man. All words have, primarily, a material sense, howeva they may afterward get, fo da ignorant, a spiritual non-sense n' #. "To retract," fo example, be to draw back, 'n when applied to a statement, be symbolic, as much so as a picture of an arm drawn back, to express da same thing, would be n' #. Da very word "spirit" means "breath," from da Latin verb spiro, breathe.

To present a visible symbol to da eye of anotha be not necessarily to inform tha dude's ass of da meanin' which dat symbol has to you, man. Hence da philosopha soon superadded to da symbols explanations addressed to da ear, susceptible of 'mo precision, but less effective 'n impressive than da painted or sculptured forms which tha dude endeavored to explain n' #. Out of these explanations grew by degrees a variety of narrations, whose true object 'n meanin' wuz gradually forgotten, or lost in contradictions 'n incongruities n' #. And when these wuz abandoned, 'n Philosophy resorted to definitions 'n formulas, its language wuz but a 'mo complicated symbolism, attemptin' in da dark to grapple wid 'n picture ideas impossible to be expressed n' #. For as wid da visible symbol, so wid da word: to utta dat # to yo' ass does not inform yo' ass of da exact meanin' which dat # has to me; 'n thus religion 'n philosophy became to a phat extent disputes as to da meanin' of words, know what I'm sayin'? Da most abstract expression fo DEITY, which language can supply, be but a sign or symbol fo an object beyond our comprehension, 'n not 'mo truthful 'n adequate than da images of OSIRIS 'n VISHNU, or they names, except as bein' less sensuous 'n explicit, man. We avoid sensuousness only by resortin' to simple negation n' #. We come at last to define spirit by sayin' dat that # be not matter n' #. Spirit is--spirit.

A single example of da symbolism of words gots to indicate to yo' ass one branch of Masonic study n' #. We find in da English Rite dis phrase: "Ah gots to always hail, eva conceal, 'n neva reveal;" 'n in da Catechism, these:

Q.', know what I'm sayin'? "Ah hail."

A.' n' #. "Ah conceal,"

and ignorance, misunderstandin' da word "hail," has interpolated da phrase, "From whence do yo' ass hail."


By Bro (and I do mean Bro, bitch) Albert "The Daddy" Pike.



Here 's the rest of the chapter.

[edit on 8-9-2004 by Leveller]

Originally posted by PublicGadfly

Levellor

According to you, Freemasonry is the big, bad evil in this world but the problem is, that you're so concentrated and blind in your hatred, that you can't really see what's going on.

Ahh, finally!

For the record I do NOT hate masonry/Freemasonry

That is pretty clear isn't it?

Well, it is pretty clear in words, however, your actions (posts) speak a much louder and hateful drumbeat than your claims...

LTD602

Masonry is, in fact, growing. Especially among young people.

Originally posted by PublicGadfly
So is AIDS, syphilus, gonorrehea, prostitution, drug abuse-

Strange company to keep- and brag about!

Maybe the 'youth' in masonry will get some of the old guys out of the lodge- I can't see it happening.

Hmmm, can't see the relevance to the subject at hand....

Masonry is a fellowship of honorable and good men, which is growing with the youth of america that are looking for meaning in their lives, to be a part of something greater than themselves, to give BACK to the community.

Your allusion is simply another useless commentary, without any intellectually redeeming qualities, and a violation of the TOS as being completely outside the topic... you think you might try to stay focused?

Originally posted by troylawson
Hi all,
"I have a 1931 copy of morals and dogma in hardback but i cant find that excerpt are you saying its on page 30? or chapter 3?"
TAKEN FROM ANOTHER THREAD

See, this is what I am talking about. You had a code of conduct published from the very begining, I would imagine, and updated from time to time. See I don't really have a problem with all that. That is very nice.



What I really have the problem with is you were not even forthcomming enough to even MENTION your published code of conduct.


I understand you want secrecy, and things should be secret, but when the average joe asks a direct question you may just consider answering straightaway. Honest answers work for me and gives the appearance that you have nothing to hide.


Gee why do you think people slam the masons. When you give the air of dishonesty what do you expect?

It is simple human communication. Someone asks a question, you answer it, it don't get much simpler than that guys.


Now if I want to see the code of conduct, do I just go to the masons website; I would guess www.masons.org.com or something to that nature?


I am not mad or angry, just don't betray my trust since I don't know squat about masons. I trust you to give me honest answers to my questions and just steer me in the right direction. And remember if I don't know or understand anything about masons, it is your fault because have not told me anything.

troylawson

No one said you were angry, but you also state we are not answering questions you are asking. If you asked to see a code of conduct, I did not see it, so I did not answer it. That is not secret... and can be answered in a just a few words: To act in a moral, upright, honorable manner before God and Man, and to do nothing that would bring dishonor on our ancient and honorable fraternity.

I hope this helps.

Originally posted by troylawson
Answer this do the Masons have a publication I might read, like at library? Point me in the right direction.
troylawson

[edit on 7-9-2004 by troylawson]

Sorry, that was what I earlier asked, Theron. The next thing I know I get a tapdance around a lame answer. Go to a lodge, meet with a mason, don't join if you don't want to.

The thing with the mormons was a shot in the dark. I had no clue that there was a history of that nature with them.

I also didn't know about the shriners, props if it's true!

Now what's this thing about a scottish rights temple thingy?

Bear with me, I love to learn that is why I enjoy comming here to ATS. I am smart but won't say how smart, and I am extremely intuitive, but very naive and gullible. I am 42 years old and still I have a lot to learn, period.
troylawson

[edit on 8-9-2004 by troylawson]



Oh yeah, poor form by you Leveller. Makes one question if you are racist or not.
troylawson

P.S. I also choose my name, rather than hide behind anonymity.

[edit on 8-9-2004 by troylawson]

[edit on 8-9-2004 by troylawson]

Originally posted by troylawson
Sorry, that was what I earlier asked, Theron. The next thing I know I get a tapdance around a lame answer. Go to a lodge, meet with a mason, don't join if you don't want to.

The thing with the mormons was a shot in the dark. I had no clue that there was a history of that nature with them.

I also didn't know about the shriners, props if it's true!

Now what's this thing about a scottish rights temple thingy?

Bear with me, I love to learn that is why I enjoy comming here to ATS. I am smart but won't say how smart, and I am extremely intuitive, but very naive and gullible. I am 42 years old and still I have a lot to learn, period.
troylawson. I also choose my name, rather than hide behind anonymity.

No sweat. Scottish Rite is another body of masonry that any master mason can join. Its rituals further expand upon the moral and social lessons taught in the first three degrees, but are in no way "higher" than or superior to the primary three degrees. For more information about the Scottish Rite, go Here.

Now, as to books to read for more information on Masonry:

Born in Blood by John Robinson
Pilrim's Path by John Robinson
Temple and the Lodge by Baigent and Leigh
Bridge to Light by Dr. Rex R. Hutchens, 33�
Morals and Dogma by Albert Pike
Everything I need to Know about Masonry I learned as an Entered Apprentice by Stepehen Dafoe

Also, see www.masonicinfo.com, which has a great search feature, and is well laid out and informative.

These are just a FEW of the sources I recommend for the Masonic side. As for the masonic critic, take a look at Freemasonrywatch.org (its a real laugh riot).

i hope this helps.

By the way, I do NOT recommend the Hiram Key by Loams and Knight as it is entirely TOO speculative and of poor research standards (no footnotes, for instance, and too many instances of conjecture then referenced as if it were proven fact to support more conjecture.)

Originally posted by troylawson
Oh yeah, poor form by you Leveller. Makes one question if you are racist or not.

troylawson

Errr..... take a look at the link.

Originally posted by troylawson
I also didn't know about the shriners, props if it's true!

I'm at a bit of a loss TL, I believe I was quite complete with my answer regarding the Shriner's and their membership requirement. I will once again provide the link to the Shrine website; directly to their membership page, so you don't even have to search the site.

North American Shrine website membership page.

If you are unable to grasp this simple (and irrefutable) proof of a valid answer to one of your questions, I'm at a loss as to your acceptance of any answer given to your inquiries.

We will answer any question you pose without compromising our obligation to the Craft, but it is incumbent upon you to make fair use of the information provided.

Patient Monkeys, not just for long lines at the DMV anymore...