Who's up for the challenge ?

All I can say is that if this is Mike Gentry: he's a coward.
Probably one of the weakest things you can do on an internet board is to argue with people with whom you've already talked to elsewhere under an alias.
You have the advantage of being able to pre-empt their previous theories and arguments and are one-up on any conversation before it even starts. I find it a weakness of character and intellect when somebody has to resort to aliasing.

PubicGadfly. I suggest you put up or shut up.
If you are Mike Gentry then at least have the balls to own up. Why hide? Do you have something to be ashamed of by revealing your true identity?

Originally posted by Leveller
All I can say is that if this is Mike Gentry: he's a coward.
Probably one of the weakest things you can do on an internet board is to argue with people with whom you've already talked to elsewhere under an alias.
You have the advantage of being able to pre-empt their previous theories and arguments and are one-up on any conversation before it even starts. I find it a weakness of character and intellect when somebody has to resort to aliasing.

PubicGadfly. I suggest you put up or shut up.
If you are Mike Gentry then at least have the balls to own up. Why hide? Do you have something to be ashamed of by revealing your true identity?

theron �that's slander�

Leveller, of all the pro-mason posters the above sentiment posted by you, as your won is most disingenuous (to quote something many lawyers have said about moi.

Advantage? Even if what you claim were true I ask you, so what?

According to almost EVERY pro-mason poster nothing I have thus posted on ATS has merit of any sort. Is this untrue?

Look -to-your-left- see the little ���ignore��� key just begging for a click? Go on, you really know you want, go for it and be free!

theron, LTD,Masonic Light (unless he finally changed it to l � i t e), Founder of the world's Only Knowledge or whatever his screen name is will cruise along without you constantly crying into the threads. THEY don't want red flags! You bring on red flags!

Do yourself a favor - - - �look to the left� for just a moment in time. Click and a new truth will be portrayed to you.

Now, to the other readers- no mason has yet been willing to post the heirarchy of masonry in their won state. Is this hidden even from them? If so, to what purpose?

Is this more of what St./ whoops Bro. Pike meant when he said the matters of the craft were obscure?

If masons have no ghaud then why is the guy in the funny hat called �worshipful master?�


PS. to the left Leveller IGNORE

There, 3 times is the charm, right?
Oh, whoops that's masonry secrets isn't it? Shame on me /shrug\ slaps self in forehead -ouch- hits masonic/beast mark (I used my LEFT hand, O.K.?)
The trickery here is to the masons themselves, isn't it?

Originally posted by PublicGadfly
Look -to-your-left- see the little ???ignore??? key just begging for a click? Go on, you really know you want, go for it and be free!

You may be a coward, but I'm not. I've been on this forum for almost 2 years and have never put anyone on ignore. So however much you beg, I'm afraid that there's always gonna be at least one mason here who will retaliate to your lies.
After reading through some of your posts here and then comparing them with those on other forums, I have come to the conclusion that you are Mike Gentry.

The same Mike Gentry who whines like a girl when somebody he disagrees with "aliases" on another forum.

www.baptistboard.com...

The same Mike Gentry who has here accused Masons of falsely using the system to gain money whilst he himself is claiming tax breaks to fund his mission of hatred.

www.masonicinfo.com...

Still. At least you've made some concessions. From what I can gather, aliasing is a minor offence where you are concerned - normally you steal people's online identities and fraudulently post under their name.

It's gonna be fun ripping you apart, dude.

Lies?

Show one -

"cry like a girl" nope, that's your ""boy""

Lay out whatever you feel like you can swallow later. You have lost sight of the purpose of ATS

DENY IGNORANCE Lev deny the beast, you'll feel better.

What percentage of your local lodge dues go to operating internet sites?
How many dues paying 'brothers' are in your lodge?

Originally posted by PublicGadfly
DENY IGNORANCE Lev deny the beast, you'll feel better.

I feel OK anyway, dude.
I'm not the one with the ignorant hang-up, you see?

I love the way you skip from insult to insult, use innuendoes, but never really post anything of substance.

According to you, Freemasonry is the big, bad evil in this world but the problem is, that you're so concentrated and blind in your hatred, that you can't really see what's going on.
I don't choose to be one of the blind - so I'm afraid that as much as you beg (and yes, you do seem the one to be doing the begging), I don't believe that I will put you on ignore.

I've never lost sight of what this forum is all about as you accuse. In fact, the very reason I oppose people like yourself is because I "deny ignorance". Do you really think that people like yourself should be able to slander unopposed? Isn't that against the very democratic freedom that people like yourself whine on and on about? It's typical of an anti-mason to deny the freedom of others to express their opinions. Blatant hypocrisy.

So you hate Freemasonry? So what? We've dealt with the ignorance and the unjustified hatred of many through the ages and you are no different. We are still here and still surviving, and we will still be around for some time to come. But where will you be in a hundred years time?

Masonry is, in fact, growing. Especially among young people.

Originally posted by PublicGadfly

Originally posted by Leveller
All I can say is that if this is Mike Gentry: he's a coward.
Probably one of the weakest things you can do on an internet board is to argue with people with whom you've already talked to elsewhere under an alias.
You have the advantage of being able to pre-empt their previous theories and arguments and are one-up on any conversation before it even starts. I find it a weakness of character and intellect when somebody has to resort to aliasing.

PubicGadfly. I suggest you put up or shut up.
If you are Mike Gentry then at least have the balls to own up. Why hide? Do you have something to be ashamed of by revealing your true identity?

Theron �that's slander�

Actually, Mike, that is informed opinion, based on observation. Slander is knowingly causing incorrect information to be published in a manner designed to bring ridicule upon the subject of the statement... And, just for the record, I agree with his assessment of you... based on MY observation of your MO.

Now, to the other readers- no mason has yet been willing to post the heirarchy of masonry in their won(own) state. Is this hidden even from them? If so, to what purpose?

This is called innuendo, along the lines of the "do you still beat your wife" questions. Without value as it has no history attached other than an inferred on, and is, on its face, incorrect. All one has to do is ask, though the information has been published in several forums.

If masons have no ghaud then why is the guy in the funny hat called �worshipful master?�

Oh, please... get a grip. Worshipful does not mean we worship the master of the lodge... it is a term of respect. Ask ANY past master on this or any other forum if he is worshipped in lodge...

Such stupidity on your part hardly does credit to your claimed title of antimason...

I just have a question for you Mason-lovers and Masons alike. "What's with all the secrecy?" If you really help those you purport to help then why don't we all here about it in the news and newspapers? It's rather like the Mormons, when it comes right down to it, only members are allowed in the temples. I was always given the "It's not secret, it's sacred." rap the whole time I was a Mormon. And the closest I ever got to the temple was the freeway going by the temple. I am not saying Masons=Mormons (you draw your own conclusions) but in many ways they are similar. I think truth should be ABSOLUTE. Meaning truth=truth. Truth is never conditional and is always true in all cases for all people or else it ceases to be truth by definition. There's none of this 'your truth isn't my truth' smack. It is or it isn't. I will be honest, I wouldn't know the truth if it was staring me in the face. I will not talk to masons, because they will have a certain bias, if you don't realize that then you are a fool. It would be like going to their website if they have one. You won't get truth there, you may get a real nice story, or puffery but the truth will elude you. To get to the truth you need to dig through the pile of rubbish. Any other suggestions are welcome. Noone in my family are masons.
troylawson

So what is your point? Do you think you are entitled to know the secrets of Masonry ?

I'm not sure I understand what your complaint is. What is it that you want ?

Ok I will type s-l-o-w-l-y. Yes, I think I deserve to know their secrets if I ever wanted to join.(I wouldn't join a group that I didn't have an ioda of knowledge about.) (VFW=Veterans of Foreign Wars, conversely) Why the need for secrecy? At least the Al Bahr Shriners help the burned children. Who do the Masons help? Why have we never heard about it? Aside from an ocassional temple or hall and their sign next to the Rotary Club sign in some cities, we would never even know of their existance. Why do we never hear of their 'good' works that they 'claim'? A group that claims to do good would want it spread all over the N.Y. Times or am I wrong? For all I know they could sacrifice virgins, or could help millions of people every day. How would I know, why would I join? Why would I care?
troylawson

1.) Secrecy does not presuppose evil or malicious intent.

2.) If you'd like more information about Masonry, contact your local Lodge, and simply ask.. It may take a bit of digging, but I'm sure you'll fid one in your area.

3.) There are elements in Masonry that are simply private and shared only between members. It's a big club, basically.

4.) Not all Masons are Shriners, but ALL Shriners must be Masons.

5.) Consider it like a family unit. Famiies have secrets, private matters that are not talked about in the open. Masonry is the same. The fact that it is an organization and that members might not be blood relations changes nothing.

by the way, is my avatar visible ?





[edit on 7-9-2004 by LTD602]

Originally posted by troylawson
At least the Al Bahr Shriners help the burned children. Who do the Masons help?

Dude. The Shriners are masons.
As for the Freemasons spreading word of their charity by using the New York Times or elsewhere? Why? Why should charity be screamed from the rooftops?
I give to charity because I choose to. It's just the right thing to do. I don't require acknowledgement or plaudits. Freemasonry is not about that.

If you look hard enough though, you can find plenty of evidence of masonic charity.

By the way, LTD = no avatar.

[edit on 7-9-2004 by Leveller]

Originally posted by troylawson
Ok I will type s-l-o-w-l-y. Yes, I think I deserve to know their secrets if I ever wanted to join.(I wouldn't join a group that I didn't have an ioda of knowledge about.) (VFW=Veterans of Foreign Wars, conversely) Why the need for secrecy? At least the Al Bahr Shriners help the burned children. Who do the Masons help? Why have we never heard about it? Aside from an ocassional temple or hall and their sign next to the Rotary Club sign in some cities, we would never even know of their existance. Why do we never hear of their 'good' works that they 'claim'? A group that claims to do good would want it spread all over the N.Y. Times or am I wrong? For all I know they could sacrifice virgins, or could help millions of people every day. How would I know, why would I join? Why would I care?
troylawson

Funny that you mention the fine Nobles of Al Bahr Shrine, for they are ALL Masons first last and above all, for to be a Shriner, one must be a Master Mason. As an aside, all the Shrine Temples contribute to the 22 hospitals treating children

Shriner's website.

Masonic charities are everywhere (in the world), supporting every imaginable cause. My Lodge supports Boys and Girls Ranches, local homeless shelters, a battered women and children�s shelter and any good cause locally, nationally, or internationally. The notion that Freemason�s want the news of our good works spread across the pages of the New York Times or any other publication demonstrates a misunderstanding of charity, and those that provide it. Providing help and relief for headlines and glory is not charity, it is a mercenary act that deserves no notice or acclaim. The largest contributions within the several Masonic Orders that I belong to have always been with the understanding that except those in official capacity (me on several instances) no one was to be informed of the contributor. Charity extends beyond the grave because the good works of the philanthropist, without thought or expectation of recognition, inspires the true meaning of a selfless offering of goodwill.


[edit on 7/9/2004 by Mirthful Me]

Thanks Leveller . . .

The Ldoge I'll be joining supports a local women's shelter, and also gives to the Salvation Army, though it is not as active in charities as some other Lodges, I am told.

It's a small Lodge, with about 60 members. Does that count as small ?

Originally posted by troylawson
I just have a question for you Mason-lovers and Masons alike. "What's with all the secrecy?" If you really help those you purport to help then why don't we all here about it in the news and newspapers?

Well, Troy, that's a good question. I'll try to answer it based on my observations.

The secrecy only applies to the ritual and modes and means of recognition. Membership is hardly secret, look in your local white pages and you will find all the lodges listed in your area under MASONIC and/or MASONRY, and in the yellow pages under Fraternities. Hardly a secret.

We also answer the assertions and questions of folks like yourself on this and many other forums, many of us (Theron Dunn, Alex Kennedy et al) using our own real names, again, hardly secret. As for what we do in the community, that also is not a secret, though in years past it has been the practice of many grand lodges, mine included, to discourage the brethren from seeking public acknowledgement for our good works.

Charity is commanded of us by g-d, and it is one of the principle tenets of our fraternity. Among the many things we do are:

KIDS/Child ID programs
Angel Programs that provide funding for folks that need assistance
Hospital Visits and service
Shrine Hospitals (Burn Centers and Orthopedic Centers)'
Scottish Rite Speech and Language Centers
Outright cash donations
Scholarships
Community Service, for instance with the Habitat for Humanity
Veterans Outreach programs

The total monies that are donated each year from our major programs totals over $762 MILLION, and that is NOT including lodge level donations. I hope this helps answer your question.

It's rather like the Mormons, when it comes right down to it, only members are allowed in the temples. I was always given the "It's not secret, it's sacred." rap the whole time I was a Mormon. And the closest I ever got to the temple was the freeway going by the temple.

Funny you should mention that... Brigham Young and Joseph Smith among THOUSANDS of others WERE Masons. In Navoo, in a single day ceremony that got his charter pulled, Joseph Smith Raised over 2300 master masons in one day...

As for secrecy, well. the only things secret about masonry are our rituals, our means of recognition, and the business meetings of the lodge. Are you somehow under the impression that we should allow the public into those meetings?

I am not saying Masons=Mormons (you draw your own conclusions) but in many ways they are similar. I think truth should be ABSOLUTE. Meaning truth=truth. Truth is never conditional and is always true in all cases for all people or else it ceases to be truth by definition.

Well, that's and interesting assertion. Ripe Apples are Red and Ripe Pears are green. Those are two facts. Those two facts, however, are not equal. The logical fallacy in your statement therefore, makes it useless. The fact that Masons and Mormons have issues in COMMON, however, is true. I can see you have real issues with the Mormon church, however, but those issues do not relate at all to Masonry.

There's none of this 'your truth isn't my truth' smack.

Uh, my friend, I haven't seen that posted ANYWHERE. What has been written is that a lack of facts does not equal a fact. You haven't really written anything about masonry except that you are concerned about it being a secret society, and then a strange attempt to make Masonry equal Mormonism. Not at all the same. That is not a subjective truth, it is a simple truth.

I will be honest, I wouldn't know the truth if it was staring me in the face. I will not talk to masons, because they will have a certain bias, if you don't realize that then you are a fool.

Well, no one is claiming not to have a bias, but if you want to know the truth about a thing, it seems to make sense to go to someone that knows a thing or two about the subject, then filter their answers against their position on what it is you are researching. Don't take my word for it, go read, look it up, ask questions, DENY IGNORANCE. That is all I ask for... don't try to live by conjecture alone, feed your mind with facts... to quote a great man, the TRUTH will set you free.

It would be like going to their website if they have one. You won't get truth there, you may get a real nice story, or puffery but the truth will elude you. To get to the truth you need to dig through the pile of rubbish. Any other suggestions are welcome. Noone in my family are masons.
troylawson

Well, Troy, as I noted above, do the due dilligence. DO the research. Don't look just at masonic sites, look at the hate sites put up by those opposed to masonry, examine their arguments, compare them with the truths that we offer, then, for g-d's sake, make up your own mind.

No one is trying to convert you. As masons, we are here to refute the lies told about us by those who style themselves Masonic Critics. You don't seem to have any information about Masonry, but a sincere suspicion, and that's really ok. You have live in ignorance about the subject, or you can get out and learn about it, or you can ignore the whole thing. The choice, really, is yours...

Thanks for posting.

"Lack of facts does not equal a fact."

Now, THAT's a fact !!

The Cardinal Rule of Research.

I'm glad you mentioned that, Theron.

I am 42 years old and I have N-E-V-E-R heard that the shriners were masons, dood! Like I said they should be in the news or something in order for people to know. Not for fame's sake, that isn't the point and just because you say it doesn't hold a lot of water. Like I said why should I care? Like I said I have been around the block. You are right I do not know much about the Masons, but I just learned that they are shriners. I didn't say mormons were masons either, you didn't read my statement. They are similar in their secrecy was all I was alluding to. I do not have anything against Mormons except they never adequately answered my questions. They just believe differently, and at that point I left the religion. Nothing wrong with Mormons aside from their beliefs. Answer this do the Masons have a publication I might read, like at library? This is the thing, unbelievely you say you do good things. You don't seek fame, ok. I respect that, but, where is your credibility and accountability? To other brother Masons no doubt. Show me proof of what you from an unbiased source. Point me in the right direction.
troylawson

[edit on 7-9-2004 by troylawson]

Then don't care. No one cares whether or not you care. Masonry is not actively looking for members, ergo it isn't going to try to convince you of anything.

Masons are not here to convince you. If you want to find out, then call you local Lodge and ask questions.

You've been given answers here. If they are not good enough, then why not go to the source . . . and call your local Masonic Lodge ?

ALL Shriners must first be Masons. The fact that you want them to advertise in the paper is ephemeral. It is not Masonic practice to advertise good works in newspapers. If you insist they advertise in papers, call the Grand Lodge of England and tell them.

If you are not satisfied with the answers given you, then look elsewhere for answers. Just make sure you don't attack what you don't happen to understand.



[edit on 7-9-2004 by LTD602]

Originally posted by troylawson
Show me proof of what you from an unbiased source. Point me in the right direction.

That's a hard thing to do.
If we try and give you proof of our good work, we leave ourselves open to accusations of blowing our own trumpets. There are always those who seek to undermine anything we do and they tie their own little interpretation of hatred into it.

Unfortunately most of what you will find regarding masonry on the web is biased. There are a helluva lot of antis out there who will pick up any word uttered by a Freemason and twist it to give it a different meaning.
The only way to start finding out the truth, is to begin reading up on the subject. Go to the official Masonic sites and then judge them against the anti-masonic sites. If you're level headed and don't start out with a bias you will soon find out who is telling the truth and who isn't.

But also remember - Charity is not just what Freemasonry is all about. We take part in it because it just is. But it is not the be all and end all. First and foremost we are a Fraternity - Charity is only a part of the whole. Don't therefore wonder why the charitable efforts of the Order aren't top of the agenda and easily displayed.

As Theron stated, probably the best way to get to know about Masonry is to visit your local Lodge. There is no reason whatsoever why you can't just go down there and ask questions.

[edit on 7-9-2004 by Leveller]

FAME (a freemasonry awareness month) has just started in a part of the world where Freemasonry's universal spread reaches. Heavy saturation PR and news coverage.

My favorite radio station - which I have sponsored for many years - was into a bit of Masonic bashing this morning (stupid breakfast host). Fixed it up with the station manager by reminding them how Freemasonry has direct ties with their student body - funding 2 Chairs in the Med school and providing for over 30 tertiary scholarships per year.

Those good works not previously trumpeted are receiving a loud trumpeting as I write.