Now what a story this is! ..what a doctor said infront of an abortion

Originally posted by Annee
So which one of you are women - - and which of you has been faced with making the decision to have an abortion or not?

Just curious - - who actually has first hand knowledge/experience with this subject.

I get really tired of the self-righteous holier then thou do gooders.

I am a man, and I've been faced with it twice.

High School girlfriend, I mentioned in an earlier post, poor planning, might not even have been mine, but she was on some harsh medications likely to cause birth defects. We made decision in a matter of days, and it was done in the 1st Trimester.

Second time, my now 4 year old, struggling for life at 24 weeks, chose to wait it out, he was born emergency C-section at 26 weeks, but we had to decide again immediately before the C-section, then he continued to struggle for 4 months after that, we often second-guessed our decision, then he struggled for another year with an extremely bad prognosis as he developed "infantile spasms," and we struggled even more with all of our decisions, and now he is a perfectly normal and happy 4 year old!

This is NOT solely a woman's decision.

reply to post by Annee


I am a man, but have supported my sister when she went through a termination, and had a girlfriend who went through two terminations.

Both instances with my past girlfriend were accidents. In the first instance, she was on the pill, and we were using a condom, it broke, and apparently the pill she was on wasn't strong enough for me, so we were taking every possible precaution to avoid pregnancy at that point in our relationship. The second instance was 3 years later when we no longer used condoms due to our fairly long term relationship, she was on a stronger contraceptive, and again we were in the 0.1% that the even stronger contraceptive didn't work for.

After she got the birth control implant in her arm, we never had another issue.

It is a very difficult experience to go through, much harder on the woman than the man, but still stressful for the male, especially seeing someone you care for deeply in distress. My experience has firmed my opinion that it is a matter of choice for the woman, with the support of the man involved (especially in the first trimester), and not a matter that any other person or entity can force their opinion onto.

Abortion is murder, no matter how you look at it. An animal is not sentient, an animal does not comprehend that it is alive, therefore killing an animal for survival is not a realistic comparison. You know what you are doing when you do "the deed" and you know the risk of pregnancy is there, even with birth control of any kind there is a chance. If you don't want your child then go through the 9 months and give it up for adoption, because i know there are many loving family's out there who would happily take him/her in as there own.

reply to post by puzzlesphere


You have failed to prove there is any scientific consensus as you first stated.

You went to medical consensus and now you are on acedemic consensus.

I don't care if my views are centuries old...1000 years from now...abortion will still be murder.


You can choose to ignore Biology to justify your beliefs...but I'll just stick with science and a clear conscience that needs no justification for me to feel ok for what I believe.

reply to post by facewhatly


So you are saying that this statement:

All in all most of the time the reason for the termination is based on how the mother is viewing the future of the child, and most of the time it's a decision made with good intention towards the possibiblity of that person

Is your opinion that you have no facts to back it up with???

That is an very odd and specific opinion to have without any data to back it up with. I could easily say that most women get abortions becaue they are satan worshipers...and claim "hey...it's just my opinion".

Originally posted by Annee
So which one of you are women - - and which of you has been faced with making the decision to have an abortion or not?

Just curious - - who actually has first hand knowledge/experience with this subject.

I get really tired of the self-righteous holier then thou do gooders.

I'm not a murderer...nor have I ever been a victim of murder or involved in a murder in any way.


And yet...look at that...I have an opinion on Murder.



Your attempts to silence people is weak.

Originally posted by puzzlesphere
reply to post by Propulsion

 

A foetus in the first trimester is not medically considered to be a baby. It also does not have any brain function, so has no thoughts on the matter.

Can you prove without any doubt that it has zero brain function???

We don't have equipment sensitive enough to even detect if an adult brain is "completely" brain dead without any brain waves at all.

Who are you to make that judgment call to say that you know 100% when they do or do not have brain function???

Your argument has no basis in fact...just assumptions.

reply to post by puzzlesphere

Both instances with my past girlfriend were accidents.

Did you trip and accidentally have sex??? Did no one ever tell you that having sex could cause pregnancy?

There is no accidents...there is irresponsibility and people not facing the consequences of their actions.

Our screwed up society has said that it is acceptable to kill a human life to dodge your responsibility and be selfish.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


scientific = academic

... though academia also includes many other fields of research, and is a general catch all term for all scholarly research... and medicine is a science. I don't need to prove anything, the available "scientific", ethical and philosophical literature is available for all to read, and general research in the area has been almost non-existent for decades, showing that the scientific/academic community has reached a general consensus on the matter.

If the majority believed otherwise, abortion would still be illegal in most places, and there would be continuing research into the area… but that’s not the case. Only idealogies keep the minority from accepting the consensus.

Cheers

reply to post by puzzlesphere

I don't need to prove anything

You made the claim...it is on you to prove it.

You can't just assume that if there wasn't consensus among ALL scientist that it would be illegal.

And show me the consensus among biologists...not abortion doctors who directly benefit from abortion being legal.

You can't tell me that you think an abortion doctor is an unbiased source to use...and that is exactly what you did. Of course they are going to tell you that you aren't killing your child as they suck it out of you..."it's just a clump of cells...just like a tumor".


It's clear that you are just desperately trying to justify it as anything except the killing of a human life...I get it...I would have to as well if I supported the killing of babies. Soldiers all the time have to justify their actions...killing other humans is not a natural thing to do...it messes with peoples mind...so people have to justify that doing it was the "right thing to do".

But the more you desperately try to justify it, the more it shows that deep down that it bothers you. Because if you knew you were in the right...you really wouldn't care what others said.

Laws don't make something right or wrong...it only makes it legal or illegal.

reply to post by heineken


Huh. I would have suggested an abortion.. Doctor must not have thought about that.

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
I'm not a murderer...nor have I ever been a victim of murder or involved in a murder in any way.

It is your choice to believe a lump of flesh is a viable being. It does not mean it is.

In fact - - most doctors/scientists do not agree with you.

And neither do I. So murder? Not in my world.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


I'm not making the judgement, it's not my area... trained professionals and the academic community have made the judgement.

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
Did you trip and accidentally have sex??? Did no one ever tell you that having sex could cause pregnancy?

There is no accidents...there is irresponsibility and people not facing the consequences of their actions.

You are being ludicrous with those questions, and deliberately misinterpreting my experience. I clearly stated the precautions we took, and the unfortunate outcome of an unwanted pregnancy, and we did take responsibility for our actions, and discussed the matter in great depth both times. Fortunately society had allowed for the option where I live to make the grave decision we made.

I suppose you believe in no sex before marriage, and never had sex before marriage yourself?

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
Our screwed up society has said that it is acceptable to kill a human life to dodge your responsibility and be selfish.

One final time... a foetus in not a human life, by any currently accepted definition. You are welcome to think otherwise, but the literature and general belief and laws in most societies suggest the majority think contrary to your opinion.

Obviously, I believe we will have to agree to disagree.

Cheers

... and thanks for the lively debate!

Originally posted by getreadyalready
This is NOT solely a woman's decision.

No - not in circumstances where there is a difficult joint decision being made.

It is the self-righteous holier-then-thou men - - on their pedestals I have no use for.

reply to post by Natame
Well the answer to that is to keep your legs closed... There are too many couples in the US alone waiting to adopt... 9 months is a small price to pay for the childs sake

Originally posted by BigDogLittleDog
Abortion is murder, no matter how you look at it.

NO - - that is your choice of belief.

Just like a person chooses to believe in a god.

Choice.

Originally posted by Twilly
reply to post by Natame

 

Well the answer to that is to keep your legs closed... There are too many couples in the US alone waiting to adopt... 9 months is a small price to pay for the childs sake

Not my problem that people want to adopt babies. Let them adopt older kids already in the system.

I choose abortion over "pot luck" that a baby would get a good home and live a happy life.

Originally posted by puzzlesphere
It is a very difficult experience to go through, much harder on the woman than the man, but still stressful for the male, especially seeing someone you care for deeply in distress. My experience has firmed my opinion that it is a matter of choice for the woman, with the support of the man involved (especially in the first trimester), and not a matter that any other person or entity can force their opinion onto.

It is difficult.

And yes - you have it right. The woman needs the man to support her - - and hopefully the decision was made jointly if there is a caring relationship.

reply to post by calstorm


Well Im no doctor, but to me, a fully formed baby, with brain and heart is a baby, so aborting it is wrong.

But from a larger ethical and moral standpoint, I see the mothers life as primary, and its function more important than the babes life. Thus, if the baby's presence or birth is going to risk the mothers health or lessen her quality in any way (thus affecting a whole bunch of other people including her spouse/other children etc) then I would chose the mothers life over the baby.

No matter how ugly the solution is, you cannot make abortion illegal and equal to murder. This would bring up hoards of other societal problems in the name of fixing one. Things like women trying to abort themselves, or shooting themselves, or killing the baby after its born etc.

I mean what difference is there between a mother who aborts and a mother who gives a child to adoption right after its born? I see no difference. In the first instance, the child is mercifully sent back to the heaven it came from, in the second, its given a life full of misery and a very small chance of becoming a healthy human in society.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


There is no desperation from my part, merely reasoned discussion, and in the end I don't particularly care what people have to say (except when the result of what they say leads to infringement on another person’s rights), other than an interest in a range of topics, from both sides of the fence.

A general consensus does not mean that all have to agree, only that the majority lean a certain direction, as my fairly quick perusal of the literature confirms. I started with a range of general search criteria, both in Google Scholar and in some larger library databases, which includes all areas of research, including biology. I wasn’t looking particularly at topic areas at this stage of my search, but didn't notice much biological literature on the matter. Mostly it was from medical, ethical, philosophical and some law collections. I then refined my search into the areas that showed the most literature on the subject, which was medicine, followed by ethics.

THe abortion doctor that you keep referring to seems to be welll respected and has a large research publication list, which is most likely why he is considered an expert in the area, and there are multiple papers from him covering a range of the issues around embryonic development, so in any given search it is likely you will come across his work.

On going back and searching purely in biology collections, I must say that there really doesn't seem to be much of an opinion on the matter from the biologist’s standpoint. In my quick search I found nothing referring to the definition of human life, or to abortion. There were a few sources that may have brushed on the subject from the perspective of biological life, but from what I could tell they were discussing "life" in a much more broad sense than the individual definition of human life.

This leads me to the belief that the academic consensus I have stated is correct, and the majority of the world would seem to agree with me.

Again... thanks for the discussion.

Cheers