Challenge for Those who are against #OWS!

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox

Also, don't link to a declaration of principles in one post, and then in the next one claim they have a "garbled message." it just ends up making you look confused.

edit on 9/11/2011 by TheWalkingFox because: (no reason given)

Apologies. From now on, I will use that link to define any and all OWS protesters and supporters.
Thanks!

Originally posted by TheImmaculateD1

1. Why do you stand against this movement?

It's turning into something resembling, "The Lord of the Flies." No sense of leadership in this movment. Either "too many cooks in the kitchen or a lack of." No clear definition of what is to be accomplished. Too many people wanting too many things. Make a list of what is most important to you all and work your way down!
This movment needs to set specific goals and quit flying by "seat of a lot of pants."

2. What would you like to see in this movement?

Clear and well defined goals.

3. Have you ever attended an Occupy event?

Yes, quite a few times in Phoenix, AZ.

4. Where do you see this nation and planet in 10 years time?

I have not consulted my crystal ball yet this morning. What are you looking for as far as an answer here? This is just like question #1. We all have different visions. Where does the leadership of Occupy see this nation and planet in 10 years?

5. What stances that this movement has adopted are you against and please specify a reason?

The movement is like an centipede. Way to many legs on this creature that serve no purpose. The ones in the back only follow the front because they have to. You might want to start clearing the bad elements out of the "movement" that are there for a free ride, and that could care less about your movement.

The results from this little poll here will be presented to the General Assembly Of OccupyWallStreet encampment at Zuccotti Park and will be posted to other occupations.

I will believe it when I see it.

Please remain civil, please be respectful of one another, please be specific as daily talking points and generic answers will not be taken seriously

You need to tell this to some of the people participating in "The movement."

You want to be apart of change right? Here is your chance!

Yes, and what exactly is it that any of these movements plan to change?

This poll will remain until 10 pages or more of replies are compiled and is your chance to be apart of history! Those offering no answers will be ignored as well as those attacking anyone will be ignored!

I am already a part of history, Thank You.

1. Why do you stand against this movement?
2. What would you like to see in this movement?
3. Have you ever attended an Occupy event?
4. Where do you see this nation and planet in 10 years time?
5. What stances that this movement has adopted are you against and please specify a reason?

reply to post by TheImmaculateD1


1. They are a bunch of self entitled so called do gooder's that say they represent me/us, if they represented me/us they would all be occupying the white hose and the capital those are the ones that need to be dealt with so the current status quo will desolve.

2. More protest against the government, because that is where the change is going to come from.

3. See #1

4. If this OC dose what its intended to do we will be living under the thumb of the government even more.

5. The "Its all pour me" attitude "I cant pay my mortgage, I cant pay my school loans, give me, give me, give me"
thats all I hear. Something given has no value.

Now im going to occupy the front seat of my boat.

reply to post by ga-`tv-gi


Just a question for you, Beezzer, and the other "completely ignore the banksters, protest the government" folks

Not too long ago there was a group of folks who set their aims on protesting government. They were known as the Tea party. I know Beezzer considers himself a part of this group, or at least a former member of the group. What I want to know is, with your sole focus being on "protesting the government," what was actually accomplished via this? The two of you among others seem to feel this is the "silver bullet," so to speak, a fail-proof panacea.

So why didn't it work when the tea party tried it? Why didn't it work the many other times others have attempted it? And why was the Civil rights movement - which began as years of boycotts against private businesses - successful, and actually started losing ground when it went after government?

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by ga-`tv-gi

 

Just a question for you, Beezzer, and the other "completely ignore the banksters, protest the government" folks

Not too long ago there was a group of folks who set their aims on protesting government. They were known as the Tea party. I know Beezzer considers himself a part of this group, or at least a former member of the group. What I want to know is, with your sole focus being on "protesting the government," what was actually accomplished via this? The two of you among others seem to feel this is the "silver bullet," so to speak, a fail-proof panacea.

So why didn't it work when the tea party tried it? Why didn't it work the many other times others have attempted it? And why was the Civil rights movement - which began as years of boycotts against private businesses - successful, and actually started losing ground when it went after government?

edit on 9/11/2011 by TheWalkingFox because: (no reason given)

You're part of the "microwave" generation. If you don't see results immediately, then it's a fail to you.

These things take time. It's still in motion.

1. It's a movement brought about people who are against the system, but as history shows these movements turn violent and are co-opted by communists.

2. Less threats against capitalism.

3. No.

4. I see a future where the era of property rights come to an end. Eventually freedom of religion too. Certainly a step towards a one-world government, but not before much suffering and persecution. For you see you have to seize private property before it can be public. 10 years is maybe too short a time, but in the next few decades we will see violence and revolution, even in developed nations.

5. Anti-capitalism, because I think capitalism is the best economic system.

1. Why do you stand against this movement?
2. What would you like to see in this movement?
3. Have you ever attended an Occupy event?
4. Where do you see this nation and planet in 10 years time?
5. What stances that this movement has adopted are you against and please specify a reason?

1. It is not organized, and no clear message. Too many left leaning groups are trying to steer the movement.
2. A clear and defined message and goals that are attainable, and targeted at the source of the problem.
3. No as I am in no position to do so.
4. On it's current course, a Nazi like state with the gestapo...I mean TSA monitoring every aspect of our lives.
5. Forgiving student loans. No one made them take out these loans. There are plenty of good schools that don't cost $100k for a degree. Be financially responsible for yourself and quit blaming everyone else. Stop asking for handouts. It does nothing to lend credibility to the movement.

That is as concise as I can make it without going off on a tangent. There are many aspects of this movement that I do not agree with, but the above points are foremost in my mind. Here are some points I would address if I were a leader in this movement.

Remove our military from foreign soil.
Abolish IRS and institute a no deduction tax structure.
Abolish the FED and let free market regulate the banking industry.
Institute a budget law that requires the government to repay all loans within 10 years, and MUST balance the budget each year.
All departments and programs would be under review for effectiveness and viability.

These are straightforward and to the heart of our current financial issues.

Why oh why do people insist that this group has no message and no goals? Does anyone bother to fact cheque anymore?

These are without a shadow of doubt are our stated goals and message and to discredit this means that the poster has clearly no clue and for those who still do not listen the problem does not lie with us but with you :

As we gather together in solidarity to express a feeling of mass injustice, we must not lose sight of what brought us together. We write so that all people who feel wronged by the corporate forces of the world can know that we are your allies.

As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power. We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments. We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known.

They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage.
They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses.
They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one’s skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation.
They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization.
They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless animals, and actively hide these practices.
They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions.
They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right.
They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers’ healthcare and pay.
They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility.
They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance.
They have sold our privacy as a commodity.
They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press.
They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit.
They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce.
They have donated large sums of money to politicians, who are responsible for regulating them.
They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil.
They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people’s lives or provide relief in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantial profit.
They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit.
They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media.
They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt.
They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad.
They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas.
They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts.*

To the people of the world,

We, the New York City General Assembly occupying Wall Street in Liberty Square, urge you to assert your power.

Exercise your right to peaceably assemble; occupy public space; create a process to address the problems we face, and generate solutions accessible to everyone.

To all communities that take action and form groups in the spirit of direct democracy, we offer support, documentation, and all of the resources at our disposal.

Join us and make your voices heard!

*These grievances are not all-inclusive.

Adopted, voted on and passed September 29, 2011!

To those who say to go after Gov't and Govt alone and fail to see that time and time again the problem is companies buying votes and that is a fundamental problem and until that is addressed it will be the same time and time again!

reply to post by TheImmaculateD1

Thanks D, I'll add to the thread.

1. Why do you stand against this movement?

I've been saying this the whole time, I think that the protesters are wasting time protesting banks and corporations. I believe the root of the problem is our government. I believe reforem in government is the first step, and maybe boycotts to express the anger at corporations at the same time. But I work sometimes 60 hours a week, I love my job, its unique and fun, but I can't stand with the protesters if I think they are wasting their time, I have things to do, places to go. Also, when I say wasting time, its not that I think that what they are doing is wrong, I just think they're starting backwards.

2. What would you like to see in this movement?

Protests: The case for Non-Violence, Leadership, and Clear Goals
I wrote this thread a couple days ago. The strategies discussed, I believe, can do nothing but help OWS.

3. Have you ever attended an Occupy event?

I don't know if you'd call it "attending" but I have witnessed Ocupy Seattle and Denver so far.

4. Where do you see this nation and planet in 10 years time?

If we don't restore the republic, I don't know if I give the nation ten years. And if this nation doesn't exist, this planet might as well not as far as I'm concerned. I love my country

5. What stances that this movement has adopted are you against and please specify a reason?

Any solution that is unconstitutional, wealth caps, etc. I don't really need to explain that.

reply to post by GringoViejo


Do you feel that corporations and banks being allowed to bankroll campaigns and force those who they backed to do whatever the banks want to the detriment of the nation be ok?

This will end the corruption and the practice of buying votes.

What if you lost your job today? How would your family make it?

reply to post by TheImmaculateD1


And do you think any of that will be changed by protesting banks? Or by protesting the people that allow, enforce, and have the ability to change the rules?

reply to post by peck420


We are targeting the puppetmasters and for far too long we've been targeting the puppets and wind up losing everytime as all Wall Street and the banks have to do is find another sucker and puppet while nothing changes.

Originally posted by TheImmaculateD1
reply to post by GringoViejo

 

Do you feel that corporations and banks being allowed to bankroll campaigns and force those who they backed to do whatever the banks want to the detriment of the nation be ok?

This will end the corruption and the practice of buying votes.

I don't see it this way. Say you, me, and john doe are the people(you), corporations(me) and goverment(john doe). Now, i'm one of the corporations that's evil and nefarious, paying off politicians and whoever else I can. No one is disputing that I'm a bad entity, no one is sticking up for me But if you camp outside my headquarters each day yelling at me about how evil and nefarious I am, that's fine with me. Because I know that until my buddy john doe changes, i don't have to change at all. Yes, I influence his decisions sometimes, but the system allows for that to be possible, and yelling at me will never change the system.

But lets say you decided to focus your outrage on john doe. John doe, especially if enough of you demand it, has to listen to you, and he can change the system. If you guys demanded term limits, campign finance limits, no giving yourself a raise in gongress, annual audits of people in office, things like that? Well I'd be a bit worried, all of those options together would serve to weaken my influence. Its not perfect, no, but it would be a start.

What if you lost your job today? How would your family make it?

I've done pretty well for myself, my family would be fine.But that's irrelevant, really.

reply to post by GringoViejo


Corruption in govt only occurs when lobbyists are paying politicians to look the other way and to vote with them 100% of the time.

Get corporations and banks out of govt and corrupt individuals would be gone shortly thereafter! You could be elected today and have all the best intentions in the world to fix the ails of society but when the same people you went to so that you could get elected will call in their favour and there is no such thing as saying no because before they see you they stop by your house first, snatch your kid or wife from your house and tie and gag them up while presenting you a laptop with your family on the video all while they were saying "If you don't do what I tell you they are dead" while someone on the vid in a bandana with 3/4 of their face covered donning a pair of sunglasses and a hoodie holds a 9mm handgun to your little girl's head while another masked man has your wife buck naked on all fours getting beat and raped serves an an excellent motivator. Events like this occur way more frequently then you know. You will agree to anything just to make it stop.

The script for the Will Smith movie "Enemy Of The State" where the Dir of The NSA kills a member of Congress and tries to cover it up by killing everyone who could possibly know the truth. This is more commonplace then you think!

Originally posted by TheImmaculateD1
reply to post by peck420

 

We are targeting the puppetmasters and for far too long we've been targeting the puppets and wind up losing everytime as all Wall Street and the banks have to do is find another sucker and puppet while nothing changes.

Where as changing the players, without changing the rules, will change the game how?

Second.

reply to post by peck420


Change the players and the financiers and that allows you to change the rules as you would no longer have lobbying groups from trying to either derail or sidestep you at any chance they get. This is what we all must remain vigilant in ensuring doesn't happen!

Lockdown and end corporate and bank dollars into our system and a vast majority of the coruption will end with it.

Politicians are too beholden to their corporate backers and are ordered to not care about the people that they swore to represent!

Originally posted by TheImmaculateD1
reply to post by peck420

 

Change the players and the financiers and that allows you to change the rules as you would no longer have lobbying groups from trying to either derail or sidestep you at any chance they get. This is what we all must remain vigilant in ensuring doesn't happen!

Lockdown and end corporate and bank dollars into our system and a vast majority of the coruption will end with it.

How so? There is a long list of players (some even nastier) waiting just outside the gates to take the current players positions. Players you have not heard of and have no control over. We will call those players international banks from abroad.

Unless you change the rules, changing the players will do nothing. Unless of course you wish the new players to have even less regard for Americans...

reply to post by peck420


Change the players by ending the ability of the banks and corporations to finance and bankroll candidates as we are supposed to have Citizen Legislators and not Career Politicians!

Originally posted by TheImmaculateD1
reply to post by peck420

 

Change the players by ending the ability of the banks and corporations to finance and bankroll candidates as we are supposed to have Citizen Legislators and not Career Politicians!

The only people that can make that change, work and play in Congress.

You are asking to have legal changes made, yet you protest the people that use the laws not write them.

reply to post by peck420


A vast majority of these laws that benefit only banks and corporations were authoured in some executive boardroom somewhere.

The Federal Reserve Act of 1913 was authoured at The Rothschilds Family Island in Jekyll Island and not in the Capitol!