Unprovoked Police Brutality…Occupy Oakland? (Video)

reply to post by Kali74


Oh trust me I know.. I responded as I did to highlight the stupidity of the post I replied to.. probably a wasted effort given the blind vitriol involved.

Originally posted by Simon_Boudreaux

Originally posted by seabag

I've seen video of police in plain clothes at OWS. Do you have video of police infiltrating OWS in plain clothes inciting violence? Please share.

Nice trick question. The cops never advertise they're cops when they're provocateurs. That's why they cover their faces. It's usually protesters with a good eye or ear that catches them at their act. I saw one live feed where there was a protester on a bike that kept going up to the barricade and talking to the cops. Even saw a few cops talk back to him. Other protesters went up to the barricade to talk to the cops and the cops started slapping the barricade with their sticks yelling for them to get back. The crowd started yelling the guy on the bike was a provocateur and he quickly pedaled out of there. If the guy doing the live feed was recording as well( not sure if live feeds record also) then I'm sure the video is out there somewhere. I'll do a little bit of searching and see if I can find it.

Trick question?? 

You accused the police of infiltrating OWS and starting violence and you have no evidence to share. That's not very believable. 

Police admit dressing in plain clothes to gather info (there is a video here on ATS) but that is a far cry from inciting violence. 

Come on, OWS'ers. Now is the chance to prove that police are corrupt.

Originally posted by Kali74
The answers are right in the video, as they have been in most videos of wrong doing by supposed occupiers... posted while salivating. The protesters in this video are screaming at the people setting the fires to stop to put them out. The scenes on the day of the general strike of a group of people attacking a Whole Foods Market were also scenes of protesters surrounding the offenders and trying to stop them.

That's EXACTLY the problem when you have MOB rule with NO leadership. Some of the movement starts CRAP like that while others try to prevent it.

But, you don't want to see that, you want to be right.... right?

RIGHT!

Originally posted by Kali74
The answers are right in the video, as they have been in most videos of wrong doing by supposed occupiers... posted while salivating. The protesters in this video are screaming at the people setting the fires to stop to put them out. The scenes on the day of the general strike of a group of people attacking a Whole Foods Market were also scenes of protesters surrounding the offenders and trying to stop them.

But, you don't want to see that, you want to be right. It's all good as long as the dirty, entilist hippies look bad, right?

So we're back to "someone else did it"? Come on, is that your defense? Looked to me like they were side by side with OWS.

Please answer these 2 questions. If someone jumps into your protest to start trouble and you still stick around are you going to be surprised if you get a rubber bullet? Were the police justified in this case based on what those "other people" did?

reply to post by seabag


In this situation, I don't think the police did wrong...others they have. This doesnt need to be an "us" vs the cops. Even the mayor of Oakland noted that this was an outside group.

Sorry, to answer your second question...yes I would stay.

Originally posted by Kali74
reply to post by seabag

 

In this situation, I don't think the police did wrong...others they have. This doesnt need to be an "us" vs the cops. Even the mayor of Oakland noted that this was an outside group.

Sorry, to answer your second question...yes I would stay.

edit on 8-11-2011 by Kali74 because: (no reason given)

I think that was an honest answer and I appreciate it.

My theory is that every video that supposedly shows police brutality has been edited to highlight what the person posting it wants to show. You always see the club or tear gas or someone thrown to the ground. You don't see the protesters throwing stuff, lighting stuff on fire, spray painting buildings, etc that went on for hours leading up to the "money shot". Things aren't what they appear when taken out of context. 

reply to post by seabag


Yes, it's a trick question. The cops aren't going to identify themselves as cops, especially if they're there to create a ruckus. So you won't see that video until the protesters start tackling them, unmasking, and identifying them. Which is what needs to be done.

I accused? Point to any post in this thread where I accused the cops of being infiltrators and starting violence.

Originally posted by seabag
My theory is that every video that supposedly shows police brutality has been edited to highlight what the person posting it wants to show. You always see the club or tear gas or someone thrown to the ground. You don't see the protesters throwing stuff, lighting stuff on fire, spray painting buildings, etc that went on for hours leading up to the "money shot". Things aren't what they appear when taken out of context. 

Agree here. That's why I watch the live feeds. If you did the same then you would know this group in black is not part of the protesters. Every time that I've seen them on the feed they come out of nowhere, do their thing, and once the police react they take off. Either the cops need to have a squad in hiding ready to arrest this group when they show up and start in, or the protesters need to throw the group a good beating every time they show up. You would also see that the cops aren't always provoked. I've seen them pop people with rubber bullets and chuck flash bangs at them while just walking past the barricades. One of the guys hit with a rubber bullet was walking by and filming the cops when they shot him. Guess his dangerous camera was provoking them.

As for the Whole Foods, the group in black showed up after the protesters were already there. They weren't side by side as you say. Watch the live feeds instead of picking one video that even you admit is edited to show what the person that uploaded it wants you to see.

Originally posted by Simon_Boudreaux
reply to post by seabag

 

Yes, it's a trick question. The cops aren't going to identify themselves as cops, especially if they're there to create a ruckus. So you won't see that video until the protesters start tackling them, unmasking, and identifying them. Which is what needs to be done.

I accused? Point to any post in this thread where I accused the cops of being infiltrators and starting violence.

Boncho said

And if the provocateurs are the Police themselves? That means they set the trash can on fire just to use force....

And you said

Why are the cops covering their faces, badges, and nameplates? So they won't be seen breaking the law?

Do you have video of cops breaking the law? The video I posted clearly shows OWS lighting fires and starting violence. There is video that shows cops undercover amongst the protesters, so they were identified. But they weren't seen breaking the law. 

Originally posted by Simon_Boudreaux

Originally posted by seabag
My theory is that every video that supposedly shows police brutality has been edited to highlight what the person posting it wants to show. You always see the club or tear gas or someone thrown to the ground. You don't see the protesters throwing stuff, lighting stuff on fire, spray painting buildings, etc that went on for hours leading up to the "money shot". Things aren't what they appear when taken out of context. 

Agree here. That's why I watch the live feeds. If you did the same then you would know this group in black is not part of the protesters. Every time that I've seen them on the feed they come out of nowhere, do their thing, and once the police react they take off. Either the cops need to have a squad in hiding ready to arrest this group when they show up and start in, or the protesters need to throw the group a good beating every time they show up. You would also see that the cops aren't always provoked. I've seen them pop people with rubber bullets and chuck flash bangs at them while just walking past the barricades. One of the guys hit with a rubber bullet was walking by and filming the cops when they shot him. Guess his dangerous camera was provoking them.

As for the Whole Foods, the group in black showed up after the protesters were already there. They weren't side by side as you say. Watch the live feeds instead of picking one video that even you admit is edited to show what the person that uploaded it wants you to see.

My point is this - if you're protesting and the "group in black" (another straw man argument) shows up to start violence and you chose to stay...don't you expect that you might get hurt by the police? Don't you think you might have rubber bullets shot at you because you're standing next to the provocateurs? Ever heard of guilt by association?

By the way, where are the "men in black" at Tea Party rallies? I've been to several and never seen these people. How come they only happen to show up and most of the OWS events? 

Originally posted by seabag

Do you have video of cops breaking the law? The video I posted clearly shows OWS lighting fires and starting violence. There is video that shows cops undercover amongst the protesters, so they were identified. But they weren't seen breaking the law. 

No, the video you posted shows the same group in black that we keep seeing coming in and doing these things. It even says at the beginning of the video that Black Bloc showed up after the protesters had been there peacefully all day. This group is not the protesters. The protesters have made it clear they are not part of the OWS movement and even the mayor of Oakland has said this. Why do you and other members here continue to make claims these are the protesters when it's known they aren't?

I've been to Occupy St.Louis. I've talked to protesters. Have you been to any of the protest? Have you bothered trying to get any answers or try to find out why these people are out there from any source other than MSM or YouTube? Or are you like these other members that do nothing but spew hate for the protesters without knowing anything other than what the news has told them? So continue to join other ATS members attempts to demonize the protesters who have the balls to take a stand and make their voices heard while you sit on your ass behind your computer and bash them. There are some that are there thinking they should be given everything but they are a very small minority. Most of the protesters are there for many of the things we discuss and bitch about on this site. The media doesn't show them. They move around the crowd looking for the few that are there for the wrong reasons and put them on the news.

Go to one of the protest, walk around and talk to them. You just might learn something.

Originally posted by seabag

My point is this - if you're protesting and the "group in black" (another straw man argument) shows up to start violence and you chose to stay...don't you expect that you might get hurt by the police? Don't you think you might have rubber bullets shot at you because you're standing next to the provocateurs? Ever heard of guilt by association?

How is it a straw man argument?

No, the cops shouldn't be firing rubber bullets, tear gas, and pepper spray into the crowd of peaceful protesters. They should be going after the Black Bloc group. But that would require them to come out from behind their precious barricade. The cops know it's Black Bloc doing it but yet they won't go after them when they show up? Why is that? Only reasons I can think of is either the cops are cowards, Black Bloc are cops, or they're being paid to show up and do this to give the cops a reason to use their toys against a peaceful assembly.

Guilt by association?
In that case every cop standing next to the cop that shot the Olsen fellow and the one that threw the flash bang into the group trying to help him should be arrested and jailed with the cop/s.

Every cop standing next to the one that shot the camera man walking by should be arrested and jailed with him.
The cops standing next to the one that shot the homeless man with a rubber bullet for no F#$%^^g reason should be arrested and jailed with him.

After all, fair is fair.

By the way, where are the "men in black" at Tea Party rallies? I've been to several and never seen these people. How come they only happen to show up and most of the OWS events?

Let's see...could it be that many of the TP protesters were armed? You don't see Black Bloc showing up at Occupy Arizona either do you? You don't see the cops in Arizona doing the things Oakland PD is doing do you? Because many of protesters there are armed! The cowardly cops aren't going to fire tear gas and rubber bullets into a crowd that can shoot back.

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by Trueman

 

Who is on their knees? Me?

So you won't help me understand OWS? This isn’t a RANT. I mean, the questions are pretty straight forward. I read posts every day claiming the police are unfairly provoking violence. I don’t see it! I want someone to watch this video and explain to me how the violence was unprovoked.

Hey brother, I just translated that for you and any other member.

By the way, that's an old quote used by E. Zapata and Ernesto "Che" Guevara.

Originally posted by seabag
Face it, OWS wants violence.

That's quite the blanket statement....so you are saying that a few bad apples spoil the bunch?

They are baiting the police into conflicts so they can point fingers; they want this and the police are obliging.

The same could be said in the opposite. What I have seen is the police show up armed to the hilt in full riot gear and attempt to impose their will upon peaceful protesters who are doing nothing more than exercising their constitutional right. What I have not seen is the protestors showing up at the police station doing the same. Who's instigating whom?

reply to post by Aggie Man

That's quite the blanket statement....so you are saying that a few bad apples spoil the bunch?

I’m saying that OWS instigates violence. If it was just ‘a few’ I might think differently but it’s happening quite frequently. I just don’t recall this type of thing happening at Tea Party protests. Can you name any? I didn’t think so.

The same could be said in the opposite. What I have seen is the police show up armed to the hilt in full riot gear and attempt to impose their will upon peaceful protesters who are doing nothing more than exercising their constitutional right. What I have not seen is the protestors showing up at the police station doing the same. Who's instigating whom?

You can’t be serious!!

Of course the police show up with gear on….what would you wear if you had to confront these freaks? If you watched the video (which you probably didn’t) it shows the ‘peaceful’ protesters lighting trash cans on fire and hurling objects at the line of police. Since when did arson, destruction of property and violence (especially against police officers) become constitutional rights?

Originally posted by seabag

My questions are:

1) Why were trash cans lit on fire during a peaceful protest?

idiots man. there's idiots everywhere and then there are followers. the was a movement of leaders, but the followers and the people who still have a weak mentality are taking center stage.

2) Does vandalism fall under the “peaceful protest” umbrella?

No i've always stated this kind of bull crap would be the death of what can be a Huge movement. IDK people are starting to act like spoiled brats, but then again i can't turn my back on the movement, because i must blame myself and others who think right. it is our job to go to these movements and talk/smack some sense into these people. you don't let the weak do the job of the strong.

3) Why were the self-proclaimed “innocent” protesters throwing things at the police?

they aren't innocent had i been there i would have thrown them to the wolves. let them go to jail, better to sacrifice a lamb than the herd.

4) If you were at a “peaceful protest” and instigators showed up to start trouble would you leave or would you stay there in solidarity with those instigators and face the consequences of their actions?

honestly if they were using violence and instigation to start trouble i'd probably use violence to stop them. i am more concerned with the progression of the movement than any specific individuals feelings. had i been there i would of done my best to stop them. maybe keep a click with me armed and ready to possibly have equipment to make citizens arrests.

5) Why were people wearing things over their faces? Was it so they wouldn’t be seen breaking the law on camera? Or was it because they knew their actions would elicit the use of tear gas?

who know's really?

6) Based on what you saw in this video, do you think the police were provoked?

i think this one kinda goes both ways. being in full riot gear is honestly pretty stupid in my eyes and invokes anger, but at the same time these (what seemed to be young adults at best) people fell for it and started acting real irresponsibly. they don't take into consideration that this kind of stuff hurts the movement. IT"S NOT COOL TO GO TO JAIL IDIOTS.

And finally….

7) Do any of you see why OWS is getting a bad rap or do you want to stick with the whole “police state” argument? Be honest, folks!

honestly yes OWS is getting a bad rap. i don't think police should start getting involved, but at the same time. idk. in this specific situation yes they got what they deserved. but then again i never disagreed with them gassing people who started a bon fire. we need to step up our game. most of us can agree there is major change that needs to happen, and those of us who are strong minded enough to restrain ourselves from being foolish need to take charge. if this fails we can ultimately blame ourselves.

Originally posted by stuncrazy

Originally posted by seabag

My questions are:

1) Why were trash cans lit on fire during a peaceful protest?

idiots man. there's idiots everywhere and then there are followers. the was a movement of leaders, but the followers and the people who still have a weak mentality are taking center stage.

2) Does vandalism fall under the “peaceful protest” umbrella?

No i've always stated this kind of bull crap would be the death of what can be a Huge movement. IDK people are starting to act like spoiled brats, but then again i can't turn my back on the movement, because i must blame myself and others who think right. it is our job to go to these movements and talk/smack some sense into these people. you don't let the weak do the job of the strong.

3) Why were the self-proclaimed “innocent” protesters throwing things at the police?

they aren't innocent had i been there i would have thrown them to the wolves. let them go to jail, better to sacrifice a lamb than the herd.

4) If you were at a “peaceful protest” and instigators showed up to start trouble would you leave or would you stay there in solidarity with those instigators and face the consequences of their actions?

honestly if they were using violence and instigation to start trouble i'd probably use violence to stop them. i am more concerned with the progression of the movement than any specific individuals feelings. had i been there i would of done my best to stop them. maybe keep a click with me armed and ready to possibly have equipment to make citizens arrests.

5) Why were people wearing things over their faces? Was it so they wouldn’t be seen breaking the law on camera? Or was it because they knew their actions would elicit the use of tear gas?

who know's really?

6) Based on what you saw in this video, do you think the police were provoked?

i think this one kinda goes both ways. being in full riot gear is honestly pretty stupid in my eyes and invokes anger, but at the same time these (what seemed to be young adults at best) people fell for it and started acting real irresponsibly. they don't take into consideration that this kind of stuff hurts the movement. IT"S NOT COOL TO GO TO JAIL IDIOTS.

And finally….

7) Do any of you see why OWS is getting a bad rap or do you want to stick with the whole “police state” argument? Be honest, folks!

honestly yes OWS is getting a bad rap. i don't think police should start getting involved, but at the same time. idk. in this specific situation yes they got what they deserved. but then again i never disagreed with them gassing people who started a bon fire. we need to step up our game. most of us can agree there is major change that needs to happen, and those of us who are strong minded enough to restrain ourselves from being foolish need to take charge. if this fails we can ultimately blame ourselves.

Star for you! That is the best answer I’ve heard yet. Your take on this is similar to mine. If you are protesting for what you believe and some within the group start to act out (which is obviously counterproductive) you want to kick them out. Many people want it to happen but don't want to take the blame; they want to use the straw man defense and cast the blame onto a fringe group. The fact is, as long as this kind of thing is going on within OWS (or any protest in America) the movement will fail. Violence begets violence. The instigators will be overpowered and the entire movement will be marginalized because of those actions.

You and I both agree that we need some serious change. I don’t support OWS simply because I don’t agree with the solution many of them seek. I’ve written many posts on that so I won’t rehash it here. Bottom line is this – as long as OWS has radical aspirations they will never garner enough support to accomplish their goals. And it’s really sad because Americans do see that the country is in trouble and the majority agree that we need change. The disagreement arises in the solution.

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by Aggie Man

 

I’m saying that OWS instigates violence. If it was just ‘a few’ I might think differently but it’s happening quite frequently. I just don’t recall this type of thing happening at Tea Party protests. Can you name any? I didn’t think so.

First, AND foremost, what does the Tea Party have to do with this OWS movement? However, since you bring it up....The TPM was a daytime "one and done" "rally"...Not a sustained (toughing it out) protest....Let's not confuse the two...Don't be a hater because your favorite movement wasn't sustainable for the long-haul...More importantly, Why are you are taking the MSM bait???.."Oh, look..LOOK, LOOK....It happened in this one place...NOW, let;'s apply the same sentiment to all that are involved throughout the entire movement"...IN REALITY, the troublemakers (who are being reported and turned in by the REAL OWS protesters) are not part of the movement; rather, they are taking advantage of the situation....and it's so obvious that a blind man could see it.

Come on; seriously, let's apply that same theory to gun owners (Which I am one of)..."oh look...someone died at the hands of a gun owner"..."What? one of those scumbag gun owners killed someone"...."let's marginalize them and get the majority on our side"...before you know it, they (I/we) will be silenced and stripped of our arms. Why??? Because the few take the spotlight of the many; No? Please don't say "NO"; as, if you do, then your entire argument is invalid....AND I'm sure you have legitimate complaints to make (within the constitutional verbiage; no? )

Of course the police show up with gear on….what would you wear if you had to confront these freaks?

I dunno, what would I do when I was ordered to strike violence on a bunch of non-violent protesters (freaks as you call them...BTW, already showing your brainwashed, uneducated. constitution hating position)...OH, I KNOW...let's beat the spit out of them...CLASSY! Not to mention...TOTALLY justified... What, are you retarded, or just totally ignorant of the Constitution?

Let's not forget the most important rule of all....follow your commands OR DIE ...Are you serious??? Just because someone tells you to walk off a cliff, then you should??? I could only hope those "law enforcement" assholes wold take that order...maybe you coluld march with them

If you watched the video (which you probably didn’t) it shows the ‘peaceful’ protesters lighting trash cans on fire and hurling objects at the line of police. Since when did arson, destruction of property and violence (especially against police officers) become constitutional rights?

Prove to me that the fires and violence were started by the protestors prior to the thug violence perpetuated by the OPD and the other agencies invited to their ass beating party. YOU CANT...no more than I can prove my POV....therefore, I must ask...Why the fock are you so quick to take the side of the jackasses that, daily,rape your rights...and push to further bend you over? What? are you uneducated? Retarded? Stupid? Or just plain bitter?

Bottom line is that no one (not me; nor anyone else, has asked you to join OWS...In fact; please DON'T); However; you sure are ignorantly opinionated; considering you obviously know very little about the OWS movement...and; SPECIFICALLY, know nothing about what is going on at "ground zero" of the movement. I suggest you pick you ass up off the couch and check it out...or don't....but don't sit here and play "Chairborne Ranger"




WooHooo...GO Wall Street, Right?

reply to post by Aggie Man


First of all, the Tea Party was the first big protest in my lifetime to address government corruption, reduction of government spending, reduction of the national debt and adherence to the constitution. TTP is the inspiration for OWS, so if you can’t see why I made then comparison then you’re not looking hard enough.

Secondly, to say that TTP was “one and done” is ludicrous. I’ve personally been to 5 Tea Party protests and I just attended another meeting locally (probably the 30th I’ve attended) a week ago, so you don’t know what you’re saying. The difference is that TTP protests to promote awareness of the issues and awaken voters rather than a sit-in style movement like OWS, which will have no effect.

Thirdly, there have been dozens of reports of violence at OWS across the nation, so it cannot be blamed on the fringe any longer. There have been numerous posts on ATS outlining this violence, so please stop trying to downplay it….it’s not working…..OWS is violent! The majority are clueless about how to achieve results so they’re letting their true colors show. A percentage of OWS doesn’t like authority of any kind and they’re lashing out like the punks they are. I hope they are crushed every time because lawlessness is unacceptable in America.

Finally, you are completely lame when you call anyone against OWS a “Chairborne Ranger’ and say we are doing nothing or claim we haven’t seen what’s going on. That is a complete logical fallacy and you know it. As a matter of fact, I was at Occupy the Fed in Dallas a few weeks ago and I did see the OWS crowd in person. I’m not impressed! They don’t have a clue what the real problems are. They’re just acting out like children.

Originally posted by Aggie Man

Originally posted by seabag
Face it, OWS wants violence.

That's quite the blanket statement....so you are saying that a few bad apples spoil the bunch?

Yeah....it's just a few bad apples. Are you sure? 200 protesters were polled in New York's Zuccotti Park last month. Guess what they found?

Link

98% say they would support civil disobedience to achieve their goals, and nearly one-third (31%) would support violence to advance their agenda.