Do Desires cause Suffering?

Originally posted by Radekus
In the modern day era, there are such things as being a victim to reality

Who is the victim?

reply to post by Q:1984A:1776

While I have the utmost respect for Buddhist philosophy, I must say that I think they have it a little backwards. I think that suffering causes desire. Of course, unfulfilled desires can cause suffering (such as hunger) but unfulfilled desires can also motivate you to become better (like inventing agriculture). Without desire, we would all be cavemen. Enlightened cavemen, but cavemen nonetheless.

You are right when desire is driven by need. The Buddha understood this, which is why he abandoned asceticism after experimenting with it. He believed that one should not deprive oneself of basic physical necessities, because doing so generates unquenchable desires that prevent the attainment of liberation.

When desire is driven not by need but by the quest for pleasure, however, it always becomes a cause of suffering at some point. When one is sick or starving, athirst, afraid, in pain, exhausted, or lonely, all one’s concern is about eliminating that condition; but since most of us are not in such dire straits, our desires are usually for pleasure or self-gratification. By schooling ourselves to ignore these cravings, we attain liberation from karma. It is really very hard to argue with.

It is instructive to compare the philosophy of Buddhism with that of Epicurus or the Utilitarians, both of whom believed pleasure to be the one indubitable good. Oddly enough, I believe this to be just as true as the Buddhist insight into the relationship between karma and craving. Reading these Western philosophers, we learn that there are degrees of pleasure, that the highest degree of pleasure is most desirable of all, and that the highest degree of pleasure is that which is least alloyed by suffering or pain. Whether we agree with this or not, we can see that from here to Buddhism is a very short step, and one that can be taken in either direction. The Buddha was keenly aware that life without suffering is impossible. Some amount of it has to be tolerated – others’ as well as our own – until one has broken the chains of the world for ever.

The question that remains is whether such complete liberation is worth attaining. That is a question each of us must decide for himself. As you say, the way of striving and suffering has resulted in much social and technological progress. This validates it for some; others are not so sure. Personally, I find it hard to make up my mind. I’m glad not to be a caveman, but if I was a Buddhist caveman lacking any craving for soft furnishings and picture windows, would I mind being a caveman at all?

I only listened to half of the vid. and apologize to the OP. It is just very long and I have to get to work, but will take the time to listen until the end later.

I think that we tend to make a distinction between desire and need- we feel a need for the essentials for living, and then a desire for all pleasurable experiences after that, in many peoples way of using the words.
I am not sure this accurate actually, because they both seem to be a energy of momentum, impulsion, which is produced in the body to make change.

But we do need ways in our language to specify our perceptions of priorities- what we consider important and to be changed before other things.

Learning to appreciate delayed fulfilment is a key to "not suffering" because of desire- one learns to produce the energy (physiologically) slowly, or only when the action is needed. Teaching children this ability early on is very constructive for them later.

The suffering happens when the body, responding the minds imagery of what it wishes to change things into, begins secreting the hormones needed to carry out action and hard work...... but they are not used by the muscles, and the mind sends no signals that the vision has been achieved by other means. The body keeps supplying the fuel, and that circulates and builds up and causes depression.

For this reason, I think keeping oneself very in touch with reality is super important, and floating up into the visions of ones head can provide one with temporary relief (the body recieves the false information that the desired change has been achieved, it stops producing, and a feeling of contentment is created). This is only sustainable IF you are in a situation in which you are somehow protected from reality breaking down those walls and forcing you to see what is real- this would send a major alert to the system, with such a high production of energy in response that we cannot canalize or use all that- you get a blown fuse. The inability to respond to crisis, danger, difficulty.

This is a real problem for those not well grounded, and involved in intense belief systems which do not embrace reality.

Learning to use and canalize energy with focused awareness, to dose out the hormones appropriately and progressively, is a long and very useful education.

Sometimes I percieve desires subjectively this way-
I create an image of myself, (in a certain situation, being a certain way, having certain things...) which is my "future",
In doing so, I have sent some of my energy into the future, it is no longer "here and now".
I need to bring that energy back here and now, to enable myself to get from here to there!
I think this is what some people refer to when they talk about projecting what you want, then "letting it go"- stop thinking about it, focus on the present.

It is not desire that causes suffering. Desire is the suffering. Desire and fear are the states that most people find themselves in. Running from fear, they desire something better. They fear the feeling of lack, the feeling of not enough.
Each human being is cursed with this feeling of incompleteness. It is all part of the game.
Human beings believe that that feeling can be removed by 'something'. We believe it because it seems to work. We feel rubbish and we buy something and for a short while the feeling of agitation lifts, but not for long.
That is why consummerism sells so well, the big companies know about the pshycology of humans, they know humans feel lack and they can promise relief.
There is a permanent feeling of dissatisfaction, that is the suffering, not at ease (dis-ease). The wanting to be rid of that feeling is desire (not wanting is also desire).

What can cure this feeling of lack? Not a short term cure but a permanent one.
The realization that you are complete, that there is nothing lacking, that you are whole.
When the truth is known desire and fear stop.

We are looking for the missing bit, the bit that will complete us, make us feel whole. That 'bit' could be a better car, a better house, or 'my other half'!!!!
Really all that has been lost, has not been lost, it has just been forgotten.
When you find that bit that has been forgotten you will be whole and you will feel complete and you will no longer 'need' anything, you will have everything you could of possibly dreamed of. Happiness and peace.
Each 'thing' we 'think' we want is no more than an attempt to obtain happiness and peace.

The problem with the law of attraction is that it promising you relief from the suffering.
It is confirming that you have something to suffer about and it is then telling you that if you 'think' in the right way that your life will change.
What if your life doesn't need to change for you to be happy? What if your life could stay exactly as it is and you can be happy about it?
The 'external' world is the way it is and no matter how much you try to change it, it won't.
It is the attitude that we approach life with that makes all the difference. It is the experience of life, not the content, the 'things' that are seen, it is how life feels.
Life is sensation appearing as form.

reply to post by SuperiorEd


Nice response. Thanks.

Originally posted by Radekus
reply to post by blazenresearcher

 

I loose interest the moment I hear things like "personal vibration"



I'm not a new ager, or religious for that matter, because I do not believe in the unprovable.
hence I avoid these topics, let's just say I have a very low tolerance for bs.

Rad, I understand. Take the Vid on face value, however the topic has sparked a lot of discussion and is worthy of review.

Limerence.The suffering can be nice.You might miss it.Unrequited love is the only true love. 'You are what you love,not what loves you' - Charlie Kaufman

I think attachment issues can magnify suffering to a great extent.

Decrease your attachments to stuff that is only temporary and live a much more free life.

Since the words I use mean little in comparison to words of Buddhism,
since it seems obvious that certain words have dual meaning as pointed out
by Juveous, I henceforth resign from discussing this topic any further.
Questions you may have about my own views will be answered,
but I won't have a discussion into Buddhism due to
1) I know little about its philosophy.
2) There is clearly a misunderstanding between meanings,
I speak of A while others speak of B.

reply to post by Seventhdoor


We all are victims of reality.

Did you choose how you were born?
What social class?
What genetics?
What part of the Globe?
What planet?
How people treat you as a result?

Please don't say yes, because that is a spiritual belief, not a known fact.

reply to post by blazenresearcher


Discussion, two meanings.

Conversation and debate, what is happening here is a conversation.
I am attempting at debate. It is a battle against windmills.

Originally posted by Radekus
reply to post by Seventhdoor

 

We all are victims of reality.

Did you choose how you were born?
What social class?
What genetics?
What part of the Globe?
What planet?
How people treat you as a result?

Please don't say yes, because that is a spiritual belief, not a known fact.

Its not a matter of saying yes to these things. Its that being a victim is a mindset. You're a victim if you make yourself into a victim. Its not like the circumstances of my life have been all love, light and rainbows. But I'm not a victim of those circumstances. How we choose to see reality will define the reality we see. When Hurricane Katrina destroyed my city, I was not a victim. I was a person living in a city destroyed by a Hurricane. I did what I had to in order to rebuild my life, and moved on. If I had sat around beating my breast over the unfairness of life and the injustice of nature and so forth, I would have created a ton of problems for myself. Thats just one example, but its an example.

I didn't have attachment to my things, so I wasn't hurt that I lost some material possessions. I was attached to certain ideas I had about my future, and therefore suffered because they didn't come to pass. Yet I learned then that life will throw curve-balls, now when it does I smile and just see it as a challenge to be overcome. I don't sit around and lament that my version of the future isn't coming to pass, nor will I give up on that version, but just have to take some minor detours on the way there. What good would such lamenting do? It would waste my time and energy. If I don't like my situation, then I work to change it. Thats all we can do.

This, in a nutshell, is what I'm talking about in regards to non attachment. Its not about being a emotionless mechanical robot who has no feelings, its about self control, about choosing our thought patterns, about choosing how to approach reality.

In essence you are a victim of your reality because you've made yourself into a victim. Rather than just manning up you would rather blame anyone and everyone else for your circumstances. Well, things only change when we take personal responsibility for all our actions, and that means handling every situation whether or not its fair or we created it as though we did create it. In that way we take ownership of our lives and our selves. Taking ownership of our reality is the first step into making it what we want it to be. So long as you are the victim, your reality belongs to someone else, and so does your power.

reply to post by Seventhdoor


When the hurricane tore through New Orleans, the people there were victims of reality,
for they had no control over their fate, if their house was in the way, well,
they weren't going to have a house anymore. Reality has also decided to kill
some of the people in the event, would they not be victims? Or was this some sort of opportunity for them?

I discuss how things are, not how I choose to perceive them.
Certainly, I am experimenting in this manifest destiny idea,
I wouldn't be in Business school if I wasn't.
But this isn't about my life, this is about how things simply are.

I mentioned that people are, for a prettier word,
"affected" by natural reality, things we have no control over,
There is also a second, being "affected" by artificial reality,
one which humans call societal structure,
this is what could potentially be amendable,
albeit harder for those who are negatively "affected" by natural reality.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
It is not desire that causes suffering. Desire is the suffering. Desire and fear are the states that most people find themselves in. Running from fear, they desire something better. They fear the feeling of lack, the feeling of not enough.
Each human being is cursed with this feeling of incompleteness. It is all part of the game.
Human beings believe that that feeling can be removed by 'something'. We believe it because it seems to work. We feel rubbish and we buy something and for a short while the feeling of agitation lifts, but not for long.
That is why consummerism sells so well, the big companies know about the pshycology of humans, they know humans feel lack and they can promise relief.
There is a permanent feeling of dissatisfaction, that is the suffering, not at ease (dis-ease). The wanting to be rid of that feeling is desire (not wanting is also desire).

What can cure this feeling of lack? Not a short term cure but a permanent one.
The realization that you are complete, that there is nothing lacking, that you are whole.
When the truth is known desire and fear stop.

Desire is not suffering. Separation is suffering. The Ego is Suffering. The Ego
is the action of separating oneself from Reality. Thus the Ego is Fear and Emptiness.
The Ego then Seeks Union but Seeking Already Presumes Separation and Seeking
is the cause of Separation.

Quoted from:
The Knee of Listening
Adi Da
Epilogue: The Man of Understanding

The man of understanding is not entranced. He is not elsewhere. He is not having an experience. He is not passionless and inoffensive. He is awake. He is present. He knows no obstruction in the form of mind, identity, differentiation and desire. He uses mind, identity, differentiation and desire. He is passionate. His quality is an offense to those who are entranced, elsewhere, contained in the mechanics of experience, asleep, living as various forms of identity, separation and dependence. He is acceptable only to those who understand.

He may appear no different from any other man. How could he appear otherwise? There is nothing by which to appear except the qualities of life. He may appear to have learned nothing. He may seem to be addicted to every kind of foolishness and error. How could it be otherwise? Understanding is not a different communication than the ordinary. There is only the ordinary. There is no special and exclusive communication that is the truth. There is no exclusive state of truth. But there is the understanding of the ordinary.

Therefore, the man of understanding cannot be found. He cannot be followed. He can only be understood as the ordinary. He is not spiritual. He is not religious. He is not philosophical. He is not moral. He is not fastidious, lean and lawful. He always appears to be the opposite of what you are.

He always seems to sympathize with what you deny. Therefore, at times and over time he appears as every kind of persuasion. He is not consistent. He has no image. At times he denies. At times he asserts. At times he asserts what he has already denied. At times he denies what he has already asserted. He is not useful. His teaching is every kind of nonsense. His wisdom is vanished. Altogether, that is his wisdom.

At last he represents no truth at all. Therefore, his living coaxes everyone only to understand. His existence denies every truth, every path by which men depend on certain truths, certain experiences, certain simulations of freedom and enjoyment. He is a seducer, a madman, a hoax, a libertine, a fool, a moralist, a sayer of truths, a bearer of all experience, a righteous knave, a prince, a child, an old one, an ascetic, a god. He demonstrates the futility of all things. Therefore, he makes understanding the only possibility. And understanding makes no difference at all. Except it is reality, which was already the case.

Heartless one, Narcissus, friend, loved one, he weeps for you to understand. After all of this, why haven't you understood? The only thing you have not done is understanding.

You have seen everything, but you do not understand. Therefore, the man of understanding leaps for joy that you have already understood. He looks at the world and sees that every one and every thing has always understood. He sees that there is only understanding. Thus, the man of understanding is constantly happy with you. He is overwhelmed with happiness. He says to you: See how there is only this world of perfect enjoyment, where every one is happy, and every thing is blissful. His heart is always tearful with the endless happiness of the world.

He has grasped it, but no one is interested. He is of interest to no one. He is fascinating. He is unnoticed. Since no one understands, how could they notice him? Because there is only understanding, he is beloved, and no one comes to see him. Because there is only truth, he is likely t

Originally posted by Radekus
reply to post by Seventhdoor

 

When the hurricane tore through New Orleans, the people there were victims of reality,
for they had no control over their fate, if their house was in the way, well,
they weren't going to have a house anymore. Reality has also decided to kill
some of the people in the event, would they not be victims? Or was this some sort of opportunity for them?

I discuss how things are, not how I choose to perceive them.
Certainly, I am experimenting in this manifest destiny idea,
I wouldn't be in Business school if I wasn't.
But this isn't about my life, this is about how things simply are.

I mentioned that people are, for a prettier word,
"affected" by natural reality, things we have no control over,
There is also a second, being "affected" by artificial reality,
one which humans call societal structure,
this is what could potentially be amendable,
albeit harder for those who are negatively "affected" by natural reality.

Ah, I was kinda baffled by your statements about victimhood, but this may have made it clearer what you mean by that- You actually mean "powerless" don't you? For you being "powerless" in relation to something, someone, or some event is being "victimized", right? Did I understand you correctly?

If so, I do see what you mean about words being misunderstood between you and others.

The word victim, is to me used to describe a subjective state- that is, whether an event or experience of powerlessness (and objective description) is victimizing is dependant upon the judgement of the person who experiences it. You can only honestly claim another is victim if they have judged that they have been victim.

Originally posted by Seventhdoor

Originally posted by Radekus
In the modern day era, there are such things as being a victim to reality

Who is the victim?

id say each one of us , where we precieve one self through others or others through one self ,
id all so say that we are victims in the belief that reality is precieved exactly in the same manner
regardless of empirical or theoretical facts of nature,
reality is what we make of it ,

but as to answer the OP id say desires that cant be answered causes suffering but answered desires can also cause regrets ,

then again it takes two to tango

reply to post by RRokkyy


Thank you for posting what Adi Da considers separation. This thread is talking about desire.
What do 'you' think about desire?

The idea is that false expectations cause us to suffer, as far as mental suffering is concerned in a world physical pain and pleasure.

i.e. Fear of pain
Lust for pleasure

Without either the mind is supposed to overcome the negative side of each, being despair and selfishness, and aggressiveness and depression.

Without expectation, suffering is minimised and pleasure is enjoyed but not lamented over.