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Originally posted by Xcathdra
Out of curiosity, what should the US be doing when it comes to security? If people dont care for the TSA, whats an alternative?
Originally posted by Xcathdra
Out of curiosity, what would you do if you had to put together a plan for airport security?
It's been a while since we last heard about a loaded gun slipping past the watchful eyes and groping, toy-taking hands of TSA's diaper-busting agents and making it onto an airplane. We thought that maybe the agency had patched up that minor security breach issue, or something. Nope!
The LA Times reports that yet another loaded gun ended up on an airplane—this one a .38 caliber handgun that "tumbled from an unzipped compartment in a duffel bag" and was discovered by an airport ramp crew at LAX. Stupid, clumsy gun! The owner, who was en route to Portland, gave up his piece to the authorities after answering some questions. The bad news: He will now be defenseless against Portland's gutterpunks and fixie bicycle gangs. The good news: He avoided arrest and detention
HOUSTON (AP) — U.S. and Argentine authorities were investigating how a stick of dynamite in a college student's checked luggage ended up on a Houston-bound flight, one of seven security incidents that disrupted U.S. flights in a day.
There was no indication terrorism was involved in any of the incidents, which caused two flights to be diverted, others to be delayed and passengers to be questioned.
The dynamite was discovered during a baggage search in an inspection station at Bush Intercontinental Airport shortly after Continental Airlines Flight 52 from Argentina landed early Friday.
Originally posted by Xcathdra
reply to post by Mellok
Commissioned Law Enforcement has to have RS / PC in order to have offical contact. Any law enforcement officer can randomly approch and talk to people - its called voluntary contact, and because its voluntary the person contacted is under no obligation to respond to the officer.
The TSA is not commissioned law enforcement, so the rights people say are being taken away dont apply in the manner they expect it to with TSA check points. Strip searches are another area that people seem to be confusing. The ability to perform a strip search is outside the realm of law enforcement authority unless a very specific exigent circumstance exists, and even then the justification used will be under extreme scrutiny.
Jails are going to be the exception to that rule, and even then they are covered under procedures that dont apply to law enforcement.
A frisk / pat down is not considered a search per Supreme Court rulings. Secondly, and this is central to the debate, is the concept of voluntary. I know people dont view it as such, however it doesnt change the fact that by going through a TSA checkpoint, you are voluntarily consenting to the process. A person is free to leave the line and not go through security, which means they can find another mode of travel.
There are exceptions to the 4th amendment -
* - Search incident to arrest (refined / restricted under Arizona V. Gant)
* - Plain sight contraband
* - Consent
What people need to understand is the exceptions coupled with case law rulings from the courts. I say this not to force people to adapt, but to get people who dont care for the current rules / laws to be knowledgable to better counter the intrusions they feel are occuring.
To simply state the TSA is violating the 4th amendment, especially in todays day and age, is not an argument. A person must be able to explain how that violation is occuring, why its a violation and how best to challenge it. In this area knowledge is paramount to overcome the status quo.
A pat down is not a search and is therefore not covered by the 4th amendment. An officer does not have to have PC in order to conduct a frisk.
Take this for what its worth - When I went through the Police Academy (2 academies in 2 different states now) the search portion was pretty much identical. During a frisk we are taught how to section off the body and how to conduct a patdown correctly. This part is not meant to offend anyone so please dont take it as such. Our instructors explained that if a male officer doesnt get called a homo by the male we are patting down, then we arent doing the pat down correctly.
The concept is to conduct a patdown in such a manner that if the person had a BB hiddon on their person, we would be able to locate its position if we did the patdown correctly. You will also have a differing standard whgen it comes down to females searching males, and males searching females. Normally we request a same sex officer for a patdown however if none are present the same procedure applies with minor exceptions.
We move the female to the front of the police car where all parties are on dash cam. When it comes to the chest, we use the back of our hands for part of that region. We then ask the female to lift her shirt some and lean forward while having the perosn manipulate the bra area to ensire nothing is being concealed there.
As I said I get what you guys are saying. What I am tying to tell you is under current law, no law is being broke and no civil rights are being infringed upon. However, it should never stop people from pushing ahead to make the changes.
As a side note, and this is directed at no one in particular - Please stop trying to lump me into the evil government category. I take the time to provide information in these forums so you guys can see both sides of the argument. My explanations dont neccissarily mean I agree with the way the law is. The best way to overcome an obstacle is to understand it first, identify potential weakness and develop a game plan from there. Attacking / insinuating Im part of something when all I do is provide the info people refuse to look up doesnt make me part of the problem.
Originally posted by Char-Lee
With laws that now say you can be taken and held without charge and no lawyer for as long as the "authorities" deem appropriate...not many people want to mess with saying no now days!
Originally posted by rogerstigers
Originally posted by gift0fpr0phecy
With security, you loose some liberty.
Without security, prepare to have ALL your liberties taken from you.
Pick one.
Utter hogwash! The TSA has done NOTHING to secure our freedoms! They have caught noone and if they have discouraged anyone from making an attempt, it sure doesn't show up in the statistics. This is just more make believe fear tactics meant to make adult Americans fear the boogy man once again.
This was written by Franklin, with quotation marks but almost certainly his original thought, sometime shortly before February 17, 1775 as part of his notes for a proposition at the Pennsylvania Assembly, as published in Memoirs of the life and writings of Benjamin Franklin Source
Police arrested a TSA agent accused of stealing electronic devices from passengers and stuffing them down his pants before putting them up for sale online.
A rogue TSA Agent who stole more than $50,000 worth of property has been fired and arrested after he was caught trying to shove an iPad down his pants.
A man said to be a trusted and well-respected security agent with the US Transportation Security Administration (TSA) was recently released on bail after having been taken into custody on charges of possession and distribution of child pornography, according to WBAL TV 11 in Baltimore, Md.
A Transportation Security Administration agent was arrested this week on federal charges for her role in an alleged phony marriage scheme that sought to secure U.S. citizenship for her purported spouse, a Lebanon native.
(Reuters) - Three Transportation Security Administration employees, a police officer and a state trooper were among 20 people arrested and accused of running an interstate prescription drug ring, officials said on Tuesday.
www.reuters.com...
A former TSA agent has admitted helping a man accused of running a drug ring repeatedly evade security and smuggle money through the Buffalo Niagara Airport.
Minetta Walker, 43, confessed that she helped the man get around airport security scanners and had warned two of his associates that agents were tailing them.
The behavioural detection officer for the Transportation Safety Administration was caught directing travellers she appeared to know away from security checks.
ORANGE COUNTY, Fla. (WOFL FOX 35) - A TSA agent has been arrested and charged with lewd and lascivious molestation of a minor after police say he tried to keep a girl as a sex slave. Police arrested 57-year-old Charles Bennett of Winter Garden on Friday. A 15-year-old girl was the one who reported him to police.
A Transportation Safety Administration employee was taken into custody Tuesday after he unlawfully tried to bring a handgun into the secured area of Miami International Airport, police said.
Just before noon, Eduardo Valdes, 29, a screener for TSA was reporting for duty on the sterile side of the airport. He was passing through an employee security checkpoint when another screener noticed a handgun in his bag.
According to the police report, Valdes admitted he knew it was illegal to bring a firearm into the airport and that he just "forgot." He also said the gun was not registered and he did not have a concealed weapons permit.
Originally posted by Char-Lee
With laws that now say you can be taken and held without charge and no lawyer for as long as the "authorities" deem appropriate...not many people want to mess with saying no now days!
Originally posted by Xcathdra
Originally posted by Char-Lee
With laws that now say you can be taken and held without charge and no lawyer for as long as the "authorities" deem appropriate...not many people want to mess with saying no now days!
This comment right here highlights what ive been talking about. There is no law that allows an American citizen to be taken and held without charges. There is no law that prevents an American from talking to a lawyer. We know this from 42 USC 1983 in addition to our rights.
What you and some others are doing is taking bits and pieces of the Patriot Act and applying them to domestic law, which is not accurate at all.
Originally posted by Riffrafter
I hate petty bureaucrats like that TSA manager that get a Napoleon complex when they perceive themselves to be in some position of power. Makes you want to beat the snot out of them....
Originally posted by Xcathdra
Originally posted by Char-Lee
With laws that now say you can be taken and held without charge and no lawyer for as long as the "authorities" deem appropriate...not many people want to mess with saying no now days!
This comment right here highlights what ive been talking about. There is no law that allows an American citizen to be taken and held without charges. There is no law that prevents an American from talking to a lawyer. We know this from 42 USC 1983 in addition to our rights.
What you and some others are doing is taking bits and pieces of the Patriot Act and applying them to domestic law, which is not accurate at all.
In the United States, indefinite detention has been used to hold terror suspects. This process, which has been highly controversial, is currently under review.[4]
One of the most highly publicized cases has been that of Jose Padilla.[5]
According to the American Civil Liberties Union, section 412 of the USA PATRIOT act permits indefinite detention.[6]
Though no single opinion of the Court commanded a majority, eight of the nine justices of the Court agreed that the Executive Branch does not have the power to hold indefinitely a U.S. citizen without basic due process protections enforceable through judicial review.
Originally posted by Riffrafter
Great stuff, Zorgon. Thanks for posting all the links and videos.
Originally posted by RelentlessLurker
kind of like how the TSA's biggest mouthpiece (janet napolitano) came out and said that the hopkins university claims the machines are safe.
...and for those of you who still cherish honesty:
DHS claim to safety
DHS's own source claiming otherwise
Oct 23 2011, 4:57 PM ET
We know how air travel has changed in the era of the Transportation Security Administration. We know about terrorist groups' not-quite-rational obsession with targeting airplanes -- not rational because they could create more fear, more easily, by blowing up shopping malls or recreating the (genuinely terrifying) Beltway Sniper episode. And we know about the public's not-quite-rational fearfulness about airplane crashes. A hundred people a day die on the roads, and we hardly blink. A hundred people blown up in the sky has a completely different effect.
What I didn't know until now was that the TSA is extending its protective scrutiny to the nation's roadways. Take a look at the clip below, which appears to be a bona fide news report this week from Tennessee.
Think you could avoid the TSA's body scanners and pat-downs by taking Amtrak? Think again. Even your daily commute isn't safe from TSA screenings. And because the TSA is working with Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) and Border Patrol, you may have your immigration status examined along with your "junk".
As part of the TSA's request for FY 2012 funding, TSA Administrator John Pistole told Congress last week that the TSA conducts 8,000 unannounced security screenings every year. These screenings, conducted with local law enforcement agencies as well as immigration, can be as simple as checking out cargo at a busy seaport. But more and more, they seem to involve giving airport-style pat-downs and screenings of unsuspecting passengers at bus terminals, ferries, and even subways.
These surprise visits are part of the TSA's VIPR program: Visible Intermodal Prevention and Response. The VIPR program first started doing searches in 2007, and has grown since then. Currently, the TSA only has 25 VIPR teams doing these impromptu searches: in 2012, it wants to get 12 more.
Posted: 04/21/2011
By: WPTV Web Team
WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. - Hoping to keep terrorists and others off-guard Transportation Security Administration conducted what it calls a random "Visible Intermodal Prevention and Response Operation" on Thursday morning at the West Palm Beach Tri-Rail station.
TSA spokesperson Sari Koshetz said that response, known as VIPR, is a highly-visible operation to help detect and deter any suspicious or dangerous activity in various modes of transportation.
Following the Madrid train bombings, TSA stepped up its efforts to enhance security on rail and mass transit systems nationwide by creating and deploying Visible Intermodal Prevention and Response (VIPR) teams. Comprised of federal air marshals, surface transportation security inspectors, transportation security officers, behavior detection officers and explosives detection canine teams, VIPR teams over the past two years have augmented security at key transportation facilities in urban areas around the country, including New York City, Buffalo and Syracuse, N.Y., Los Angeles, Boston and Providence, R.I.
07/04/2011
by Ron Paul
The press reports are horrifying: 95 year-old women humiliated; children molested; disabled people abused; men and women subjected to unwarranted groping and touching of their most private areas; involuntary radiation exposure. If the perpetrators were a gang of criminals, their headquarters would be raided by SWAT teams and armed federal agents. Unfortunately, in this case the perpetrators are armed federal agents. This is the sorry situation ten years after the creation of the Transportation Security Administration.
The requirement that Americans be forced to undergo this appalling treatment simply for the "privilege" of traveling in their own country reveals much about how the federal government feels about our liberties. The unfortunate fact that we put up with this does not speak well for our willingness to stand up to an abusive government.
Many Americans continue to fool themselves into accepting TSA abuse by saying "I don't mind giving up my freedoms for security." In fact, they are giving up their liberties and not receiving security in return. Last week, for example, just days after an elderly cancer victim was forced to submit to a cruel and pointless TSA search, including removal of an adult diaper, a Nigerian immigrant somehow managed stroll through TSA security checks and board a flight from New York to LA -- with a stolen, expired boarding pass and an out-of-date student ID as his sole identification! He was detained and questioned, only to be released to do it again 5 days later! We should not be surprised to find government ineptitude and indifference at the TSA.
Nov. 17, 2010 - Congressman Ron Paul (TX-14) introduces the American Traveler Dignity Act in response to regulatory measures taken by the TSA to implement potentially dangerous X-Ray screening procedures or invasive "pat-downs" by TSA officials. Campaign for Liberty has released a written statement opposing this regulatory overreach by the TSA.
Follow this link for Campaign for Liberty's written statement:
www.campaignforliberty.com...
Follow this link for the text of Ron Paul's bill, the American Traveler Dignity Act
paul.house.gov...