Ventura Decries "Fascist" America After Judge Tosses TSA Case

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

Well here in Australia and I'm sure many other countries, we don't have those full Xray machines and we don't get subjected to invasive pat downs..

It doesn't seem to be an issue and it's also been shown that for all their security, people have still managed to smuggle items through the TSA checkpoints..
A serious terrorist would easily find a way to get past security..

I guess the question is,
how much freedom are you prepared to give up for the "illusion" of security?

You dont need to be anything special to work for the TSA. Now my question is, while the TSA is able to run around the entire airport, whos watching them? Explain to me whats stopping a 'serious terrorist' from simply getting a job with the TSA or worse, using an explosive on the thousands of people waiting in line to board their airplane? Nothing. There is your illusion of security.

reply to post by Xcathdra


Another method of travel. like driving?
TSA checkpoints in Tennessee - www.abovetopsecret.com...
Groping, it's not just for airports anymore.
"Oh, that's right, driving is another optional method of travel."
Maybe we won't get searched if we all ride donkeys.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
reply to post by e11888

 

Thats just it though. There is no 4th amendment violation. A pat down and a search are 2 compltely different actions. Secondly, its voluntary - meaning a person can either choose to go through security, or not go through security and arrange another method of travel.

Terry Vs. Ohio

"Pat down" is a misnomer.. Terry allows whats called "cursory search" which includes only outer clothing for "officer safety".

TSA are called "agents" because they are non sworn, thus not "officers".. I doubt Terry would apply to them. Also, if I recall.. Terry specifically said once "police" remove objects from pockets, it's a search... the exceptions being guns / knives / weapons.. Minnesota v. Dickerson.

Is what the TSA agents do "reasonable".. justified by one unsolved crime 10+ years ago, is what the courts failed to even address.

Ventura is right on, post 9/11 USA is new and improved Nazi 2.0.. this proto-fascist GOP / DNC engineered folly train will keep rolling.. just as it has throughout history. Fighting it will likely result in dying incarcerated or tired. Personally.. these dear leader megalomaniac ruling class Nazis can farm & manipulate all the dupes they want, not my scene.

Nations come and go, as do people.. good for him for calling it as it is.

Originally posted by Xcathdra

Then I guess you go through airport security.

Then I guess you go through airport security

I don't have to do anything of the sort. You see, here in Australia we don't see the need for such excessive security, and much of the rest of the world is the same. We look in from an outside perspective and see just how very, very wrong your current is.

My job requires me to travel around the country about 50% of the time.

As someone who is subjected to the TSA's "procedures" on a regular basis, I can say that it flat out sucks.

Some of the agents are decent people, but there are a lot of them that seem to get off on the power trip and go way above & beyond what any reasonable person would think is necessary. I've seen children and old women (and I mean old) get singled out for the intensive screening for no good reason. It's a travesty....and it should be outlawed.

I hope Jessie Ventura continues to shine a light on this as it makes me ashamed that my own country would subject it's citizen's to this kind of invasive, over-the-top and in my opinion illegal behavior by the TSA.

I was really sorry to see CLEAR go under. I was one of their early customers and at airports where they had facilities the process of getting through security was a breeze. You could also tell that the TSA didn't like them and it sometimes makes me wonder if the government had anything to do with their failure. I think it's possible the gov't knew they couldn't all of the sudden disallow them to provide the services they had agreed to let them provide so the only way for them to get rid of them was to have the company shutdown.

reply to post by Asktheanimals


What do the TSA highway check points have to do with this topic? If people did some research they would find that commercial vehicles are subject to Federal law, which means they can be stopped without cause to have theuir cargo checked / manifest / log book / current DL / Medical card etc etc are all up to date.

TSA is not empowered to do anything with regards to private vehicles.

Originally posted by GovtFlu
"Pat down" is a misnomer.. Terry allows whats called "cursory search" which includes only outer clothing for "officer safety".

Partially correct. If a foreign object is "felt" and the officer can articulate what it is, they are covered.

Originally posted by GovtFlu
TSA are called "agents" because they are non sworn, thus not "officers".. I doubt Terry would apply to them. Also, if I recall.. Terry specifically said once "police" remove objects from pockets, it's a search... the exceptions being guns / knives / weapons.. Minnesota v. Dickerson.

Going into pockets falls under the 4th. Its one of the reasons after a terry frisk police will ask the person to turn out there pockets. As far as agents, you are right. Ive pointed that out in numerous threads and people just gloss over it. It goes back to acting under color of law (TSA does have federally commissioned / armed officers, however ive never seen them work the security check.

Generally speaking when on private property and dealing with private security, there is no requirement in terms of needing RS / PC to make contact with the person. People still have issues when it comes to their rights and how they work.

Originally posted by GovtFlu
Is what the TSA agents do "reasonable".. justified by one unsolved crime 10+ years ago, is what the courts failed to even address.

Wrong application of the reasonable standard. Also, as you pointed out (as have I in other threads) TSA is not commissioned law enforcement.

Originally posted by GovtFlu
Ventura is right on, post 9/11 USA is new and improved Nazi 2.0.. this proto-fascist GOP / DNC engineered folly train will keep rolling.. just as it has throughout history. Fighting it will likely result in dying incarcerated or tired. Personally.. these dear leader megalomaniac ruling class Nazis can farm & manipulate all the dupes they want, not my scene.

Dont get me wrong im not defending the TSA or the manner in which they conduct their business. What I am pointing out is the argument people are trying to use (violation of the 4th) doesnt apply in this case because of the factors we both have listed.

Originally posted by GovtFlu
Nations come and go, as do people.. good for him for calling it as it is.

meh.....

Originally posted by Kryties

Originally posted by Xcathdra

Then I guess you go through airport security.

Then I guess you go through airport security

I don't have to do anything of the sort. You see, here in Australia we don't see the need for such excessive security, and much of the rest of the world is the same. We look in from an outside perspective and see just how very, very wrong your current is.

edit on 5/11/2011 by Kryties because: (no reason given)

Well good for the rest of the world. When the rest of the world gets off their asses and pulls their own weight, then maybe we should roll back the bulk of the security measures in place. Until that happens, the US is in the crosshairs.

While I have the utmost respect for Austrailia and you, the comparison between Australia and the US security methods are comparing apples to sea kelp.

Out of curiosity, what should the US be doing when it comes to security? If people dont care for the TSA, whats an alternative?

Am I one of the only people left who isn't afraid of death?
If I happen to be on an airplane when some deranged person sets a bomb off, it was just my time to go.

Traveling on the roads is putting your life in danger.
Do I check my oil and brakes every time I want to drive somewhere? Do I hug my loved ones and hold them tight every time I get into the car? No.

Why are we being conditioned to fear the skies? Because it gives them more control. Just as a man enters the military, his mind and body is government property until his contract is up. This is how the airports are now. Your mind and body belong to Homeland Security upon your entrance. This is sick, twisted, and beyond anything we should put up with.

I have a better chance of dying at the hands of a road rager than a terrifying terrorist airplane bomber.
It's as simple as that.

reply to post by truthseeker55


My 20 year old daughter came up from San Fransico to Lake Tahoe via Sacremento yesterday.
She said when she got off the train for the connecting transportation, there were Police Dogs and about 20 Cops and Homeland Security people randomly going up to people to ask to see their papers and where were they going? They were opening backpacks and looking in purses etc.

When they asked HER where was she going,SHE asked why the increase in security? She was scared.
A robbery or suspect loose thing going on?

They told her it was just new procedures at the Amtrak Hub.

WTF?

This TSA stuff is ridiculous. Worse, it's annoying, contemptible, and pathological. I haven't taken a US flight since 2006 and while still living there would cross into Mexico to fly. There are destinations you can't even fly to from the US - like to Cuba for instance.

Just view TSA as another erosion of your former privileges of living in a "free country" and know the reality of that now. The American Dream has turned into a nightmare, IMO, and it may be a good time to wake up if you haven't already done so. That dream is gone now and can't be seen again. It has been taken away from us and there is little left to do but love it or shove it.

Maybe this is the worst it is going to get and things will only improve now. These measures are only temporary, right?

If law enforcement wants to search your personal property or your person (also property) they have to have probable cause, and/or a search warrant right? They can't just strip search you for no reason, of course they have and do anyway, but unlawfully.

So basically you're innocent until proven guilty as far as that goes...

But TSA can frisk you when they want, even if you're a little kid, old lady, whatever.... for no reason.
Stepping through a scanner is one thing... it's not implying you're guilty..
But getting patted down is invasive and it seems unconstitutional for them to take it to that level without probable cause.

If they really feel that you are dangerous then they should have a reason, not just assume everyone is guilty automatically, which I believe is the core of the problem with TSA.

reply to post by Mellok


The core problem is the Patriot Act.
If it weren't for this dangerous manifesto being created, we wouldn't have to deal with any of this.

I agree fully, the patriot act nullifies many of our liberties in the pursuit of "safety".
We all know where that can lead to, and has already.
A few more false flags here and escalate the "terror" levels to red, make people willing to throw away their own responsibility for safety so these agencies can do it.

Reminds me of grade school, when one kid acted up or abused a toy, the simple minded teacher would take it away from all the kids.

Now imagine if the teacher paid one of the more "unruly" children to abuse that toy, so then the privileges get stolen from all.....

Then you have the U.S. Government... hooray!

ETA..

RP/Ventura 2012?
Then maybe we could get some things done.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
Out of curiosity, what should the US be doing when it comes to security? If people dont care for the TSA, whats an alternative?

I have to ask, do you feel these TSA measures are necessary and effective?

I don't believe they are to any great extent more effective than what we had before with metal detectors and X-ray our carry-ons. I don't believe they add in any appreciable degree of security for the travellers and that the psychological and emotional conditioning is not worth the cost - and dollar cost as well not worth it. Of course in your line of work I doubt you would have any problem with that sort of conditioning as it helps create a more compliant populace.

As for necessity, Americans and the world are becoming much more aware of the United States' role in the global world as its corporate enforcers and henchmen. In that case Americans should be spared some of their economic hardships augmented after the 2008 collapse for carrying out that role in the global community. That should be the trade-off then, tit for tat. It is not a pleasant role to carry out the dirtywork for these interests and maybe doing so does necessitate more active security measures.

As this is not a role the American people by vote or popularity have chosen but rather one thrust upon them they should have some immunity to the consequences and/or have privileges in other arenas, such as financial security. Americans do not live such privileged lives as they have been told. They do not have the highest standard of living in the world, nor are the healthiest, nor happiest, nor wealthiest. Americans are neither the worst-off, but perhaps are the most propogandized in the world and have some of the most enduring delusions about themselves. That is no kind of pay-off though. The TSA-type of security measures which I expect will only get worse are just an insult to add to the injury.

I think though that most Americans just consider such security measures the price to pay for all their illusions of freedom. PT Barnum lives!

Originally posted by Xcathdra
reply to post by Asktheanimals

 

TSA is not empowered to do anything with regards to private vehicles.

And if they did it would be against the law correct?

reply to post by Mellok


Commissioned Law Enforcement has to have RS / PC in order to have offical contact. Any law enforcement officer can randomly approch and talk to people - its called voluntary contact, and because its voluntary the person contacted is under no obligation to respond to the officer.

The TSA is not commissioned law enforcement, so the rights people say are being taken away dont apply in the manner they expect it to with TSA check points. Strip searches are another area that people seem to be confusing. The ability to perform a strip search is outside the realm of law enforcement authority unless a very specific exigent circumstance exists, and even then the justification used will be under extreme scrutiny.

Jails are going to be the exception to that rule, and even then they are covered under procedures that dont apply to law enforcement.

A frisk / pat down is not considered a search per Supreme Court rulings. Secondly, and this is central to the debate, is the concept of voluntary. I know people dont view it as such, however it doesnt change the fact that by going through a TSA checkpoint, you are voluntarily consenting to the process. A person is free to leave the line and not go through security, which means they can find another mode of travel.

There are exceptions to the 4th amendment -
* - Search incident to arrest (refined / restricted under Arizona V. Gant)
* - Plain sight contraband
* - Consent

What people need to understand is the exceptions coupled with case law rulings from the courts. I say this not to force people to adapt, but to get people who dont care for the current rules / laws to be knowledgable to better counter the intrusions they feel are occuring.

To simply state the TSA is violating the 4th amendment, especially in todays day and age, is not an argument. A person must be able to explain how that violation is occuring, why its a violation and how best to challenge it. In this area knowledge is paramount to overcome the status quo.

A pat down is not a search and is therefore not covered by the 4th amendment. An officer does not have to have PC in order to conduct a frisk.

Take this for what its worth - When I went through the Police Academy (2 academies in 2 different states now) the search portion was pretty much identical. During a frisk we are taught how to section off the body and how to conduct a patdown correctly. This part is not meant to offend anyone so please dont take it as such. Our instructors explained that if a male officer doesnt get called a homo by the male we are patting down, then we arent doing the pat down correctly.

The concept is to conduct a patdown in such a manner that if the person had a BB hiddon on their person, we would be able to locate its position if we did the patdown correctly. You will also have a differing standard whgen it comes down to females searching males, and males searching females. Normally we request a same sex officer for a patdown however if none are present the same procedure applies with minor exceptions.

We move the female to the front of the police car where all parties are on dash cam. When it comes to the chest, we use the back of our hands for part of that region. We then ask the female to lift her shirt some and lean forward while having the perosn manipulate the bra area to ensire nothing is being concealed there.

As I said I get what you guys are saying. What I am tying to tell you is under current law, no law is being broke and no civil rights are being infringed upon. However, it should never stop people from pushing ahead to make the changes.

As a side note, and this is directed at no one in particular - Please stop trying to lump me into the evil government category. I take the time to provide information in these forums so you guys can see both sides of the argument. My explanations dont neccissarily mean I agree with the way the law is. The best way to overcome an obstacle is to understand it first, identify potential weakness and develop a game plan from there. Attacking / insinuating Im part of something when all I do is provide the info people refuse to look up doesnt make me part of the problem.

Jesse should have filed the case saying the X-ray's were being absorbed by his Titanium implants, causing cell injury.

He could have found some scientists/ metallurgists in other countries who would testify repeated X-raying of Titanium medical implants is bad.

Which it is. Frequent Flyers who have titanium implants would be exposed to more bad radiation than non-disabled.....from the X-ray machines.

He should have played the Disabled Card.

reply to post by Pervius


Great defense you have there, but he still would've been subjected to molestation though.