The Moon Is Upsidedown Tonight ! Las Vegas, Nevada

A handy tool can also be located here:

Sun or Moon Altitude/Azimuth Table from the U.S. Naval Observatory

aa.usno.navy.mil...

OMG!!!! Everything around me is upside down!!!!!

Wait...

I'm standing on my head.

Whew, that was close.

Carry on.

Originally posted by dcmb1409
A handy tool can also be located here:

Sun or Moon Altitude/Azimuth Table from the U.S. Naval Observatory

aa.usno.navy.mil...

Thanks. That's a useful table.

If we apply that table to this photo taken in Kansas on March 8, 2008....

[image source]

We can easily see the reason the Moon is an nearly horizontal crescent. If we choose "Topeka Kansas" as the location on that table for that date, we can see that the Sun set at about 6:20 PM. At that time, the Sun was at an azimuth of 264.5° east of north (which is almost directly west).

AT THAT SAME TIME that the sun was setting (6:20 PM), the Moon was 262.8° east of north -- a difference of only 1.7° from the azimuth of the Sun. That means the moon was almost directly above and a bit to the left of the setting Sun (at an altitude of about 16° above the Sun, by the way). So, if we apply that to this picture, the Sun would be almost directly beneath and just a bit to the right of the Moon, although over the horizon, basically in a spot behind that tallest part of the treeline.

Considering that position of the Moon relative to the Sun in that picture -- which seems exactly as predicted by the azimuth table -- obviously the bottom of the Moon should be lit.

Again, the tables that show the predicted location of the Sun and moon do actually match the observation -- even the slight angle of the tilt away from horizontal.

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People


I don't think anyone is disputing that it happened. I certainly am not disputing that I have seen the boat moon in Las Vegas, Los Angeles and Northern New Mexico. There are still plenty of pictures on the web showing a boat moon in diverse places, far from the equator. I know I'm not disputing that it's happening. There continue to be boats everywhere - you don't really know from one day to the next.

Thing is the boat moon is supposed to be on the equator. But not anymore. So now what?

Originally posted by luxordelphi
Thing is the boat moon is supposed to be on the equator. But not anymore. So now what?

Can you quote any text that says that the boat moon should ONLY occur at the equator?

And again, what angle defines a boat moon exactly? 30 degrees?

Originally posted by Uncinus

Originally posted by luxordelphi
Thing is the boat moon is supposed to be on the equator. But not anymore. So now what?

Can you quote any text that says that the boat moon should ONLY occur at the equator?

And again, what angle defines a boat moon exactly? 30 degrees?

Why do we allow this Groundhog Day to perpetuate endlessly?

I'm as guilty as anyone else, but the proof has been provided. Overwhelmingly. Actual explanations, charts, videos, stick figure examples...proof. luxordelphi merely refuses to accept that proof as anything but our "opinion." And before she comes back here and says "show me" just re-review this entire thread. It's all here. You just flat-out refuse to accept it as anything but opinion.

I've asked numerous times what it would take to convince her and the OP they are wrong, and both have avoided the question. 1 respected astonomer? 2? 50? We can't get the moon itself to settle the debate, so how many people telling you that the moon is behaving normally, that the boat moon can be witnessed from the Northern Hemisphere in the winter, will it take? Or just at least be honest that your position can never be changed, so all these bright and good-intentioned folks can move on to threads that actually seek the truth.

Some people will never concede a debate no matter the quality and quantity of evidence provided to the contrary. It's the ultimate troll and a complete spit on the motto "deny ignorance."

I don't mean any offense, but as John Wayne said: "This is getting to be re-g*ddamn-diculous."

Originally posted by luxordelphi

Thing is the boat moon is supposed to be on the equator. But not anymore. So now what?

Nothing you have shown thus far that says that you will always see a boat Moon at the equator also says that you can NEVER see a boat moon anywhere else BUT the equator.

You made that part up yourself.

I know for a fact that the Earth tilts 23 degrees. Therefore, obviously there are times the the 23rd parallel is at the ecliptic -- not just the equator. So it just seems logical (and using critical thinking skills) that a perfectly horizontal Moon can be seen at the 23rd parallel on occasion.

I also know that the Moon's orbital plane is off the ecliptic an additional 5 degrees. Therefore (again using logic and deductive reasoning) it seems logical that the perfectly horizontal Moon can be seen at times at the 28th parallel.

Therefore it seems logical that at the 36th parallel (Las Vegas, like the OP's image) there can occasionally be a Moon that is heavily tilted (such as in the OP's image).

I'm not just making this stuff up as I go along to try to pull explanations out of my rear end for a Moon that is suddenly and mysteriously tilted. Rather, I understand that the Moon CAN IN FACT look heavily tilted from the mid-latitudes, and I have understood the mechanism behind this for many many years.

I mean, really. Don't you think that amateur astronomers who have been looking at the Moon for decades would have noticed if it was suddenly doing something it has never done before? Don't you think that astronomers and fishermen who have used the Moon rise/set tables and the Moon Azimuth tables for years would have noticed a conspiracy to secretly change those tables?

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People


No one made up anything. You cant have it both ways. You cant have an equatorial moon on the 36th - 55th parellel's , In order for a person to see the boat moon the moon has to be setting on their parellel!!!!!!! You can't use that 23 degree defense either. I will explain why.

The earth is in winter mode for the Northern Hemisphere now. One month ago the earth was 1 month into the tilt/angle of the sun for the winter solstice. Now it's 2 months + approx into the tilt/angle of the sun for the winter soltice and it means we are angled/ tilting northward. The 36th parelell moves north with the tilt just like everything else does on the planet. Therefor if you wanted a chance for a boat moon at the northern lats, you would have a better chance in the summer months when the earth is tilting southward not northward in relation to he sun and moon.

You know it's not the end of the world if you simply accept the fact that its happening. It is a sign and wonder in the heavens. Nothing more. Its also a disgrace to the eyes and minds of thousands of thousands of people who agree they have never seen this before when you try to tell them they are suffering from mass memory loss and delusions. Maybe there is a chance you don't remember correctly? Or are you saying it's impossible for the heavens to evolve and we are witnessing it.

reply to post by GeorgiaGirl


Another meaningless offtopic contribution... ust like your last one

reply to post by CherubBaby

Therefor if you wanted a chance for a boat moon at the northern lats, you would have a better chance in the summer months when the earth is tilting southward not northward in relation to he sun and moon.

What do you base this statement on? The eclitpic of the Sun and Moon and different...The Winter path of the Moon offers the best chances of people in the Northern Hemisphere seeing a boat...and your photo is not truly a boat in the strictest sense...

reply to post by jeichelberg


I have to laugh.. You are once again "Check Mated" I had to test you and you fail easily !!

You error again because there is no such thing as a "Winter Path" of the moon.!!!
The moon doesn't have a seasonal cycle to follow. Therefor there is no "Summer Path" either.
You should know this since you talk like someone of authority.

Its comical for a person who knows so little about this ( As yourself ) to recommend to others the need for classroom and dialogue with "Experts". Still the sadest part of all is that you are the one that needs an education and you don't even realize it. ( Shaking my head )

The truth is , ( and your "Experts" would tell you this ) The moon follows a 18.6 years cycle , that has nothing , Nothing, No Thing to do with the seasons of the earth. Which means the moon doesn't know winter from summer , but in this case you seem to think it does. I will let you read and educate your folly.

The Moon also changes in declination, but it does so in only a month, instead of a year for the Sun. So it might go from a declination of +25° to −25° in just two weeks, returning to +25° two weeks later

And

But, unlike the Sun, the maximum and minimum declination reached by the Moon also varies. This is because the plane of the Moon's orbit around the Earth is inclined by about 5° to the plane of the Earth's orbit around the Sun, and the direction of this inclination gradually changes over an 18.6-year cycle

And

The effect of this is that at one particular time (the minor lunar standstill), the Moon will change its declination during the month from +18.5° to −18.5°, which is a total movement of 37°. This is not a particularly big change, and may not be very noticeable in the sky. However, 9.3 years later, during the major lunar standstill, the Moon will change its declination during the month from +28.5° to −28.5°

But this only happens once every 18.6 years.

Do you still need help?

Originally posted by CherubBaby
reply to post by Soylent Green Is People

 

Its also a disgrace to the eyes and minds of thousands of thousands of people who agree they have never seen this before when you try to tell them they are suffering from mass memory loss and delusions.

It is a disgrace to the eyes and minds of thousands of amateur astronomers who have seen it long before now and know for a fact that it's normal, myself included, to tell them they are lying or delusional.

reply to post by CherubBaby


No thanks...I do not need help to understand that when the Earth goes through the seasons and we here in the Northern Hemisphere go through our winter, the Moon travels a different path across our sky here in the North...That is what I meant...It rises it a different location on the East horizon and sets on a different location on the West horizon...I understand this...you do not...

reply to post by CherubBaby

The Moon's path follows the ecliptic within 5º.

The location of the ecliptic in summer is different from the location of the ecliptic in winter. The Moon has a winter path because it follows (within 5º) the ecliptic.

The Moon, like the planets and the Sun, travels along a special path in the sky called the ecliptic. Observationally, the path arcs generally across the southern half the sky from west to east, but it is not a simple arc that is in the exact same part of the sky year round. Rather, it curves higher in the sky and lower in the sky as the seasons change.

urbanastronomer.blogspot.com...

When the ecliptic is nearly perpendicular to the horizon at moonset, the Moon is nearly horizontal.

Originally posted by CherubBaby
Therefor if you wanted a chance for a boat moon at the northern lats, you would have a better chance in the summer months when the earth is tilting southward not northward in relation to he sun and moon...

In the Winter, the Northern Hemisphere is tilted toward the north in the DAYTIME. On winter NIGHTS, the Northern Hemisphere is tilted toward the south. The pictures of the 1st quarter and last quarter moon you've shown us from Las Vegas have been at taken at night or very early (pre-sunrise) morning.

I've posted this graphic before, but here it is again:

Note: The Earth and the Moon are not exactly aligned with the Sun's ecliptic, but I'm showing it that way for simplicity's sake.


By the way, this picture also explains why the perfectly horizontal last quarter Moon was visible from the 20th parallel last week and NOT from the equator. It was NOT perfectly horizontal when seen from the equator at that time. That's because the 20th parallel is tilted toward the south at night in the winter.

So it makes perfect logical sense why the perfectly horizontal Moon was seen from the North America (places like Mexico City at the 20th parallel), rather from the equator. As you can see in the graphic above, the equator was tilted too far southward at night to see the Moon as being perfectly horizontal.

reply to post by CherubBaby


And rather than just offer this source, why not take this opportunity to offer in your own words how the 18.6 year period may or may not impact the result of your photographic evidence...I will anxiously await your explanation...

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People


I honestly believe that you must find a way to add chemtrails into your diagram...then the OP will accept it as a legitimate depiction of an actual event...

If
1) I had an inkling that I was on to what I believed to be something of massive proportions (i.e., the Moon was so far off kilter that it is behaving as it never has since records have been kept in the field of astronomy); and,
2) I lived anywhere near Flagstaff, AZ...

I WOULD RUN to LOWELL OBSERVATORY and present the evidence and have my questions answered...

When presented with this suggestion, what follows from the OP is how much schooling I need...Well, I am not the one with the question...

reply to post by Phage


The sun has a 'winter' path and a 'summer path' and a 'springtime path' and a 'fall path.' The earth takes a year to orbit the sun and in each season there is a path for the sun.

The moon takes a month to orbit earth. There is no winter in each month. There is no 'winter path.' There is only the monthly path and an 18.6 year cycle.

If you want to see the path of the sun perpendicular to the horizon go to the equator on the spring or fall equinox.

If you want to see the path of the moon perpendicular to the horizon get yourself down to between 29 degrees north latitude and 29 degrees south latitude and wait...it will happen at some point in 18.6 years.

PS Jeckylborgs comment,

...I understand this...you do not

Is another claim without proof.
Another juvenile "Quip" of frustration

reply to post by CherubBaby


If I made even one person chuckle, then my post was not meaningless. It was a joke--ON the topic at hand. So I find my post to be meaningful and on topic.

The last post of mine you say was also not up to your standards was my reply to someone who had made a good point.

I know you are heavily invested in this topic, and you feel passionate about it. I also love a good conspiracy, but this just isn't one. You've got pages and pages of people with scientific evidence that you are wrong. Your thread has been moved to skunkworks. I think a little light hearted fun is perfectly appropriate.

I do admire your persistence. You're certainly not a person who gives up easily. However, that doesn't make you correct.

Originally posted by CherubBaby
The sun has a 'winter' path and a 'summer path' and a 'springtime path' and a 'fall path.' The earth takes a year to orbit the sun and in each season there is a path for the sun.

The moon takes a month to orbit earth. There is no winter in each month. There is no 'winter path.' There is only the monthly path and an 18.6 year cycle...

The winter path of the Moon is the winter path because of the tilt of the Earth. The actual path of the Moon isn't changing, but the way the Moon's path across the sky looks will change due to the tilt of the Earth, which is a seasonal thing.

We can basically ignore the 18.6 year cycle for this case. The seasonal changes in the way the apparent tilt of a specific phase of the moon the Moon does not change because the Moon's orbit changes, but rather it changes because of the seasonal tilt of the Earth.