ACORN Officials Scramble, Firing Workers and Shredding Documents, After Exposed as Players Behind Oc

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi

 

You'll be screaming for the government to provide for you when your public economy collapses

I don't need government to survive.

If you do that shows more about your capacity and capability than you care to realize.

Do I personally need government to survive? No.

But unlike you, I don't intend on watching my society around me descend into backwards chaos because capitalism raped us of our sense of community.

reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi


Capitalism didn't do anything.

Capitalism doesn't create force.

Government does.
en.wikipedia.org...

There is, however, little controversy that elements of capitalism include private ownership of the means of production, creation of goods or services for profit in a market, and prices, wages and competition.[2] The designation is applied to a variety of historical cases, varying in time, geography, politics and culture.[3] It is generally defined as the economic system where the means of production are privately owned, operated for profit from investment, and in competitive markets.[4]

George Washington on Government:
"Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action."


I don't get it. Why do you wanna force radical leftism on everyone around you when there are plenty of places on Earth that provide it?

Why not go there?

Originally posted by projectvxn
Capitalism doesn't create force.

Adam Smith's "Invisible Hand". Need I say more?

reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi


Self-regulating nature isn't force by decree or arms of authority.

Someone doesn't understand what they are going on about.

Big surprise.

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi

 

Self-regulating nature isn't force by decree or arms of authority.

Someone doesn't understand what they are going on about.

Big surprise.

Yeah, you.

Obviously you don't understand that paradigms shift and the concept of economy has evolved. Neo-liberal economics have paved the way to fascism where transnational corporations profit from the destruction caused by military force. Governments employing this modern imperialist shock and awe strategy say that it is in the public interest so they don't regulate it, instead allowing the private corporations to regulate themselves.

For instance, do you think your cost of gas will go down if your country captures more oil fields? Absolutely not, because oil prices are dictated by economic speculation. The oil companies who ensure prosperity from conflict dictate the price of gas, and thus can use it for political manipulation.

reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi


That's not capitalism, sir.

Again, you don't understand the difference between what Adam Smith talked about and what government coercion and manipulation in industry has caused.

And you want me to advocate for this very same governmental entity to "take care of me" when the SHTF?

No thanks, I'm not a masochist.

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi

 

That's not capitalism, sir.

Again, you don't understand the difference between what Adam Smith talked about and what government coercion and manipulation in industry has caused.

And you want me to advocate for this very same governmental entity to "take care of me" when the SHTF?

No thanks, I'm not a masochist.

No, you don't understand. You're trying to tell me that the imperialist nature of finance capitalist countries is not capitalism? It is the highest state of it.

And no, I don't expect you to stand hand in hand with the very same government entity. But a society needs a government to survive, especially if it plans to maintain itself and progress into the future. There is no space race for tribal countries.

reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi


What you describe as imperialist capitalism doesn't exist. What you are describing can more accurately be termed Mafioso capitalism. Or gangster corporatism which requires a large state apparatus to work.

We would not have what we see today, as you describe it, without a large and unaccountable government enabling it. A government that exceeds it's prescribed Constitutional authority in favor of "need of the moment" policies that are all too easy to manipulate by interests not so interested in the welfare of the people.

I'm not anti-government. But I am not for a government that assumes for itself the authority to take care of me. Because any government capable enough to give me everything I need and want is capable of taking everything I have. Including my liberty as an individual, and my life if I refuse to comply.

There is no space race for tribal countries.

The Space race became a stagnant monopoly of government with overly expensive and slow "innovation". The best thing that could have happened to the space race is what happened recently, turned over to the private citizen.

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi

 

What you describe as imperialist capitalism doesn't exist. What you are describing can more accurately be termed Mafioso capitalism. Or gangster corporatism which requires a large state apparatus to work.

And you went to university to learn this? Because I go to university and have studied exactly this. I don't care if you don't like my Leninist/Marxist terminology because it's been established for a century or longer. Your "accurate" term of "Mafioso capitalism" is not accurate, nor are they actually described as such in the realm of serious political science.

I am talking about imperialism. Imperialism is made possible by finance capitalism. Imperialism is when an imperical country 'owns' a 'colony' country through credit (globalist institutions such as the IMF, WB, or WTO), free-trade/investor's rights agreements, or direct/indirect military force. Economic imperialism is necessary when your own homeland cannot sustain its own population's needs, and thus must take from other countries to compensate.

The Space race became a stagnant monopoly of government with overly expensive and slow "innovation". The best thing that could have happened to the space race is what happened recently, turned over to the private citizen.

You must be joking.

The space race has stagnated because the US and the USSR virtually stopped trying to be serious about it after the whole going to the Moon thing. Space stations were the next step, and they were built... only to see them decay and fall into the ocean.

It was government that put Sputnik into space, and it was the same government that put Gagarin up there too. Corporations don't give a flying crap about human achievement unless it is profitable and they will most certainly NOT provide better space technology than what governments can accomplish.

PS: I hope you won't be thinking private space race is the way to go when Russia sends astronauts to Mars in 20 years.

reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi

And you went to university to learn this? Because I go to university and have studied exactly this. I don't care if you don't like my Leninist/Marxist terminology because it's been established for a century or longer.

Ahh yes. I almost forgot. People who go to college to learn about how certain philosophies work on paper while living in a society that provides them the comforts and liberties to pontificate on these systems from a distance have the experience to tell others how things "really" are.

And this is why I don't bother arguing with leftists. They think their academic approach to life is all there is to it despite decades of experiments in their respective philosophies proving otherwise. The USSR, China, Cuba, North Korea. These are all places you could go(except for the USSR obviously because that little commie empire collapsed didn't it?) if you want a taste of what it's really like to be a Marxist.

Your little "Occupy" movement would be put down with extreme prejudice in these countries.

reply to post by projectvxn


You can call me leftist all you like. I don't recall ever saying that I was. I don't have to be leftist to study the contribution to political science by leftist ideology, now do I?

And you can rant about how incorrect academic training is. It's pretty damn important to have it if you want to actually understand the standards of modern society, instead of just speculating. Speculating and knowing is the difference between following and leading.

Nothing is black and white in politics, but it most certainly seems that way when it is easier to learn it as so, isn't it? The reality is that politics is a gray field of neumenic social thought, and those with the best solutions realize that there is no "right" or "wrong" but rather politically and morally correct according to our current social paradigm. For you to ignore the left simply because it is the left is pure ignorance.

You want to see the effects of the right? Look around you: extreme economic disparity, poverty, pestilence, war, sublimation of thought. I would rather fight on the losing side if it still meant that I could be human doing so.

reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi

extreme economic disparity, poverty, pestilence, war, sublimation of thought

Soviets never started a war?

Chinese Communists didn't create poverty and pestilence?

North Korea doesn't indoctrinate their people thus "sublimating thought"?

You're just too much.

And to compare what they have done to American conservatism...:shk:

Absolutely absurd.

Go back to school.

Originally posted by PhoenixOD
Not everyone here is from the US who are ACORN and SEIU ?

Acorn (whoever the hell they are) hold no quarter in the UK.

Why do people think everything relates to god damn America all the time?

reply to post by mr-lizard


More than 50 % of ATS users are American.

OWS was started in America.

ACORN has been behind it since day one.

ACORN is actually an international organization with many front groups. I wouldn't be surprised if they were operating in some capacity in the UK.

reply to post by projectvxn


fair enough. But if the protesters genuinely protest with their heart and souls then ACORN cannot claim that they are responsible for OWS when the people are out there protesting against corruption.

People are waking up.

Thanks for your reply.

reply to post by Blaine91555


Don't you dare bring in facts and logic based on hard work and long term startegies into this debate...

This invloves OWS god damn it!

Kudo's for not tearing apart that post based on the simple fact that Canada does not have 50 major cities. Woudl be cool if we did, but we don't.

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi

 

extreme economic disparity, poverty, pestilence, war, sublimation of thought

Soviets never started a war?

Chinese Communists didn't create poverty and pestilence?

North Korea doesn't indoctrinate their people thus "sublimating thought"?

You're just too much.

And to compare what they have done to American conservatism...:shk:

Absolutely absurd.

Go back to school.

edit on 5-11-2011 by projectvxn because: (no reason given)

What is your point by posting what other countries than yours have done?

This is ideological. It goes beyond nations and nationalist virtue.

This is between communitarianism, and neo-liberalism.

It is between people who believe that all people should have equal opportunity to prosperity while having equal individual rights VS people who believe in engineered disparity within society and wish to maintain it (the tyranny of the minority).

And you tell me to go back to school? I already know the political science academic system in the US; it is taught on six different levels depending on what quality of school you can find yourself privileged to go to. Here in Canada, there is only one national standard for political science. I am learning the same stuff as those in Trinity. And despite the fact that I am only attending a relatively small university, my instructors are well experienced (some even have published books and even "pick our brains" for ideas for new books). You think you'd be getting the same treatment in your country if you weren't going to Harvard or Yale? In fact, I hear that in such elite American universities you don't even get to meet your famous instructors and that just attending those schools is the point of the related prestege.

So mock my education all that you want. I'm just some guy who grew up in a small village in the forest who happens to be doing very well in higher education (to the behest of those who tried to keep me from it). Obviously you don't have the same experience. You can mock someone spending four years of their youth in university studying, but you wouldn't be mocking it if you tried it yourself. You might actually learn something intelligent instead of talking reactionary politics.

peck420-
Kudo's for not tearing apart that post based on the simple fact that Canada does not have 50 major cities. Woudl be cool if we did, but we don't.

What is that supposed to mean?

whether these protests were started by officials or not, people are out there trying to get change, so its very much a real movement. there's nothing fake about it. why else would the govt spark revolution unless we were in fact due for a change?

I think its pretty dumb to take this crap on face value-they have been trying to portray the OWS as a communist movement since it began.

ACORN is one of those groups that basically everyone is suspicious of, or actively hates-to my observations, its purely a smear campaign to discredit OWS.

With respect to the discussion about 'isms. The US is currently, and very blatantly under a system of fascism, where the rule of law has been suborned to corporate interests.

In my opinion capitalism is an economic, not political methodology. Communism requires a powerful state to rob people, capitalism can exist even with anarchy.

Capitalism is economic freedom within a moral law, any other system requires loss of freedom. However at the moment, and for the last 100 yrs, capitalism has been suspended, once in part, and now in entirety.

Where private institutions are handed trillions of dollars of the peoples money to cover private losses, that is socialism for the rich, and debt slavery for everyone else. It is also correctly identified as crony capitalism, or as previously stated; fascism.

One of the central issues that I hope will be addressed by any future revolution, is the problem with law that is not accessible to the common man, and a legal system that is centrally controlled.

How is that any man can feel they will be free when they hand the power to create law, the power to interpret law and the power to enforce law over to a small handful of men?

The law is not intelligible to every day people, this is not an accident, neither is it an inevitable consequence of s system of law-it is an intentional corruption. Morally, it is the right of every man to have even and fair access to the law.

Using means that remind me strikingly of the dark ages, where bibles were written in Latin, and only the priests were able to read and interpret it, they suspended every day men from access to the law. Now the priests have been replaced by lawyers, and the same system is in effect today.

In my opinion, it is this loss of direct access and power over the law, that truly lies at the core of the corruption of the western world.

It is also my opinion that having a legislature, high courts, supreme courts and supreme court judges is an abrogation of peoples lawful rights, and will always lead to injustice.

An alternative system is to use the natural law as the only true law, and peoples courts of justice as the only lawful courts, where juries not officials decide verdicts and sentences, and those edicts are based not upon the letter of the law, but upon careful consideration of the circumstances, morality to provide the application of justice as seen fit by the people.