Ancient Cave in the Moravian Karst Still Stumps Archaeologists: (ever heard of this place?)

Originally posted by KryptKeeper
I think about this kind of thing quite often. It amazes me. 10,000 years from now if most of our records of history and of ourselves (books etc.) will probably be gone with maybe a few scarce traces will be left. People will exhume things that have stood the test of time. Maybe like the vault at fort knox. We would be pondering that if we found a steel room with thousands of gold bricks stacked up to the roof. Maybe they find some underground gasoline storage tanks from a gas station and try to figure it their uses.

Some stand up comedian suggested that we all made wills to the fact that we should be burried with 10 toasters in a circle around our caskets. All aligned north/south.

That would give future archeologists food for thought.

Originally posted by Freedom_is_Slavery
nice find
Interesting ring and spectacular head piece

Spectacularly good condition.

I had only worn my wedding band for a few weeks before my work efforts made tell tale dents and scratches on it.

The person wearing this must have been important. Or maybe the ring was custom made for his funeral.

A slaughter no one actually knew, sad to say.

Originally posted by HolgerTheDane

Originally posted by KryptKeeper
Some stand up comedian suggested that we all made wills to the fact that we should be burried with 10 toasters in a circle around our caskets. All aligned north/south.

That would give future archeologists food for thought.

Haha. This reminds me of a site in I think it is Greece where all the male archeologist's couldn't quite pin down what a place was for, and thought it was a place of worship. Then a female archeologist came on site, got to know things and looked at their "religious idols" and realized they were dildos.

Awesome stuff.

reply to post by anon72


Very cool! Thanks, OP for the post. I find it fascinating when there's a new find like that of any sort. Can't wait to see if more finds come from that cave system.

Great thread OP, thanks for sharing this with all of us... I've never heard of any of this, looking forward to doing some of my own research on it. Extremely interesting stuff...

S & F

reply to post by Awen24


Now you're talking. I was hoping someone would come along with info about the time/era in the story.

The head dress/halo and the ring just seem out of place-

Can you provide any pics of things you know to have been used in that period?

reply to post by lokdog


It's widely known/accepted that Europe lost A LOT of knowledge after the fall of the Roman Empire. The Hellenistic Age of Greece offered incredible works of art that are still marveled at in this day and age, and the Egyptians did amazing things with stone and gold as well.

The Dark Ages were exactly as they sound, a time when knowledge was horded by a very select few who wanted to control the ideas and thoughts of others. They practically rewrote the Bible and kept men in the region "in the dark" for several centuries. There's nothing amazing about the craftsmanship of those items for that era. 2600 B.C. was the time of Plato and Aristotle when art and philosophy were flourishing, it stands to reason that craftsmanship was equally impressive.

It's also now widely assumed that many regions in Europe and around the Mediterranean were much more cosmopolitan than originally suspected when archaeology was in it's infancy.

Stone age serial killers den?


A nice horde there, wouldn't of minded stumbling on that find

reply to post by indisputable


It's become much more acceptable in recent years to believe that the known world of that region was much more cosmopolitan than originally assumed. And that part of the world uses Cyrillic as a root language which also is the root language for ancient Greek.
2,600 B.C. was the time of great artists and thinkers in the Greek city-states. So the artistry is not that impressive if you suppose that merchants were traveling from Greece into deeper parts of Eastern Europe on trade routes we no longer recognize or make modern use of.

Originally posted by MrCipher
reply to post by lokdog

 

It's widely known/accepted that Europe lost A LOT of knowledge after the fall of the Roman Empire. The Hellenistic Age of Greece offered incredible works of art that are still marveled at in this day and age, and the Egyptians did amazing things with stone and gold as well.

The Dark Ages were exactly as they sound, a time when knowledge was horded by a very select few who wanted to control the ideas and thoughts of others. They practically rewrote the Bible and kept men in the region "in the dark" for several centuries. There's nothing amazing about the craftsmanship of those items for that era. 2600 B.C. was the time of Plato and Aristotle when art and philosophy were flourishing, it stands to reason that craftsmanship was equally impressive.

It's also now widely assumed that many regions in Europe and around the Mediterranean were much more cosmopolitan than originally suspected when archaeology was in it's infancy.

Not to nitpick or anything, but Plato wasn't on the scene till about the 5th century BC. Neither was Classical Greece.

This is the first ive heard of this mysterious archeological find..They were very skilled to make that kind of beautiful jewelry and head dresses ..I hope they tell us more about this site..Thanks for the thread op! S&F

Star and Flag. I love these topics and finds. I need to find a site/forum that deals with just this kind of stuff. Anyway, I'm not at all surprised by the craftsmanship as those were the skills and livelihood of the craftsman at that time.

The man usually took on the father's role, being an apprentice and picked up the trade. When you don't watch tv for 4-8 hours a day you can accomplish a lot.

Can anyone here with a PhD in the field confirm that the Scythians and other Steppe people shared or lived with Celtic people? They share a lot in the crafts it seems, chainmail, tartan patterns and torcs etc.

I don't mean to derail the topic but I wanted to share the Nebra Disk, found in Germany.

reply to post by MrCipher


That is a good factor to take on board well done friend. If trade routes were used for migration of craftsman who held skills gathered from corners of the globe then yes even the most limited civilization can apply the knowledge.

Reading all the replies. I am amazed. Seriously.

Some great thoughts about this place and the finds inside (and the life around).

I still think the metal work is the most impressive I have seen from the past. I think it blows the Egyptian stuff away.

I have a huge book on the God of Egypt. I will look through it and try to find something close in time to this stuff.
Hmmmm.

Originally posted by MrCipher
reply to post by lokdog

 

It's widely known/accepted that Europe lost A LOT of knowledge after the fall of the Roman Empire. The Hellenistic Age of Greece offered incredible works of art that are still marveled at in this day and age, and the Egyptians did amazing things with stone and gold as well.

It's also now widely assumed that many regions in Europe and around the Mediterranean were much more cosmopolitan than originally suspected when archaeology was in it's infancy.

Just to note that it was the western part of the Roman empire that fell, the eastern section based on Constantinople did quite well for another 1,000 or so years.

reply to post by jlv70

amazing detail and craftsmanship.

A little to amazing for hand made if you ask me.

reply to post by MrsBlonde


The head dress would have sat higher on the crown. It looks tightly fitting as a result of where it sits, low down the nape of the skull. With the flesh and skull covering it would sit higher up.

Originally posted by anon72
reply to post by Awen24

 

Now you're talking. I was hoping someone would come along with info about the time/era in the story.

The head dress/halo and the ring just seem out of place-

Can you provide any pics of things you know to have been used in that period?

I can do that, yes.
The ring strikes me as interesting also... because the ring IS characteristically Hallstatt. Two concentric spirals (possibly stylized snakes? Hard to know without a better image)... that's fairly typical for the... well, anywhere from about the 15th century BC through to the 7th or 6th. The variance between the headdress and the ring can suggest multiple things, but I don't think that either of them are necessarily beyond the technological capability of the era. Hallstatt period pieces are typically of excellent craftsmanship, so there's nothing unusual here in that sense.

What the variance does suggest to me is that this is potentially a site that has external influences... whether those influences be due to trade, invasion, or other forces... is up for debate... but the headdress simply doesn't fit right with me as a Hallstatt piece. In fact, headwear in and of itself is a little unusual for the Hallstatt period. The few descriptions we have of Hallstatt headwear are generally related to conical hats made of animal skins etc., and not anything anywhere near as elaborate as this.

The theory on your original link, of possible Scythian influence, is a good one... but even then, I'm not aware of any Scythian headwear that resembles this. I've been racking my brains and looking through all my research materials, and I've got literally nothing. The Scythians were much bigger on headwear than the Hallstatt culture, and certainly had much more elaborate items, but still nothing that resembles this. The headdress on that skull almost looks more... Middle-Eastern, possibly even African... which wouldn't surprise me, to be honest. I think trade was much more widespread than we've ever given it credit for, in the ancient world.

With those things said though... these finds are clearly indicative of a high-status individual (not to mention the chariot)... but if this person was a high-status Hallstatt culture individual... where are the status items? The torc? Armbands? Weapons? The whole thing is very odd.


Images for reference.

Double spirals:
www.royalathena.com...
www.royalathena.com...
www.royalathena.com...

Typical Hallstatt headdress (still not particularly common, but this is the prevalent design IMO):
www.kelticos.org...

Typical helm from the same period (this particular example is not Hallstatt, but similar in design):
www.landschaftsmuseum.de...

(not very exciting, are they?)

Originally posted by Freedom_is_Slavery
nice find
Interesting ring and spectacular head piece

This is most definately Celtic and even his first thought was Hallstatt which is Celtic.

Look at the top of the Celtic scabbard found in Ireland in this picture and compare the shape to the ring.





I've got alot of books on Celts and this looks very much like their artwork