All things Pagan. A Druid's guide.

Originally posted by DarkStormCrow
Druids were Celtic and Runes are Germanic, Celts and Druids utilized Ogham which is similar to Runes. The Germanics, Norse, Germans, Danes, and Swedes utilized Runes.

Actually the Ogam (old Irish)/ Ogham (modern Irish) can not be shown to be used in divination, unlike the runes, there is one (and only one) oblique reference to them being used in that way (or perhaps not). Also Ogam was invented after the Druids had moved on/been replaced by monks. Also it was the Gaelic Celts who used them, not ALL Celts. Sorry just a pet pieve of mine

Originally posted by Druid42
reply to post by Agarta

 

Thanks for the information. It appears you are well read on this subject.

I have studied the Ogham, simply because I ran across it in my research. Definitely based on trees.

The Ogham:

(source)

However, I made my rune set following the Elder Futharck. I cast according to their definitions and meanings. It works much like a Tarot set, with runes taking on a different aspect according to their placement and position with other runes.

The Elder Futharck:

(source)

Much information has been lost. When the Christians "converted" most of Europe, a lot of the old ways were destroyed. That to me is a shame. It's like reading a history book, only to find several pages ripped out.

Thanks for the link. I love to read old stories, from previous eras, and see how they thought about the world around them.

Actually Ogam have over 100 different attestations (The Druids' Alphabet: What Do We Know About the Oghams by Skip Ellison) with at least two associated with trees, sadly Robert Graves (a poet, who wrote the White Goddess, a good poem, but a bad source for history) screwed up peoples views on the Ogam. Other attestations include Castles, birds, rivers, etc. Also you can use 20 or 25 letters, the last 5 (fordeda or "additional letters" were added to let the monks write in latin and greek )

Runes actually normally were not cast like "tarot", but whatever works. Also remember there are several forms of Runes, including the larger "Anglo-Saxon" alphabet (I think it has 33 rather than 24 letters, if memory serves)/

Originally posted by Noinden
Runes actually normally were not cast like "tarot", but whatever works. Also remember there are several forms of Runes, including the larger "Anglo-Saxon" alphabet (I think it has 33 rather than 24 letters, if memory serves)/

that was interesting. It seems all traditions change with time: as it should be , no?

in my observation, anything can be 'cast' like Tarot. the only requirements, as far as i can tell are:
-belief in the system
-a personal connection to the media (tea leaves, any tarot, rune stones, i ching, etc)
-practice..lots and lots of practice.
-observing patterns and making correlations: or just trusting the feelings upon gazing.

these systems can be complex and following the foundation of tradition is a useful way of attaining more understanding more rapidly, but all can be learned given time and patience.

i'm curious: how do the (most? some?) druids frame the multiple facets of our minds and the forces that move us? Is there something akin to the Tarot Major Arcana?

Originally posted by galactix

Originally posted by Noinden
Runes actually normally were not cast like "tarot", but whatever works. Also remember there are several forms of Runes, including the larger "Anglo-Saxon" alphabet (I think it has 33 rather than 24 letters, if memory serves)/

that was interesting. It seems all traditions change with time: as it should be , no?

in my observation, anything can be 'cast' like Tarot. the only requirements, as far as i can tell are:
-belief in the system
-a personal connection to the media (tea leaves, any tarot, rune stones, i ching, etc)
-practice..lots and lots of practice.
-observing patterns and making correlations: or just trusting the feelings upon gazing.

these systems can be complex and following the foundation of tradition is a useful way of attaining more understanding more rapidly, but all can be learned given time and patience.

i'm curious: how do the (most? some?) druids frame the multiple facets of our minds and the forces that move us? Is there something akin to the Tarot Major Arcana?

Spot on! People should use their divination tool (whatever it be) in a way that works for them

Umm I'm not a Tarot person, so the Major Arcana question was over my head (I started with Ogam, and stuck with it ),

But how do we deal with the "facets of our minds"? It depends on the Druid I am sure. As an ADF member (11 years and counting), I tend to see things in terms of Indo-European mythology.

Our cosmology (I'm speaking ADF and recon types here) are polytheistic, and focus on a specific group of shinning ones that "speak to us" (as I said, the Gaels for me, the Cymric for my wife etc). But we tend to see the world not in the 4 "classical elements" but more complex. For me I see the world in 9 elements that were taken from the "divine twin". I'm also a Pharmaceutical chemist retraining into bioinformatics, so I tend to see complex patterns anyhow

So can you reframe that "major arcana" question a little, for a non Tarot user (they don't speak to me at all).

Originally posted by boomerdude
reply to post by wildoracle13

 

I remember you said the same thing back in 6700 B.C.E. when Archula decided we were wrong to only follow Og, that we should follow all the Titans. Then those damned Sumerians came along with their stupid Anunnaki, and look what happened then.

So if a practitioner decides to follow Darth Vader, so what? At least they have cool action figures. When was the last time you saw an Oestre figure?

Granted, what Darth has in common with the One and all his/her aspects in Nature I don't know. But call them Djinn, Watchers or The Empire, I don't see how it hurts the Old Ways.

Ostara is celebrated by most witches and most of us are aware of the goddess Oestre, patron of renewal and fertillity. I believe she is a germanic goddess? Anyway, last time I saw an Oestre figure was probably in an on-line metaphysical shope. You wont find Darth I can promise you that. Above all, the this kind of thing is degrading to the pagan community that works really hard to show the world that we are competent, level-headed, real people. As you mentioned, what this has to do with the craft no one knows. This has NOTHING to do with the "Old Ways" and serves to dilute the true beautiful, simplistic, path we follow. Un real.

Originally posted by Noinden
Umm I'm not a Tarot person, so the Major Arcana question was over my head (I started with Ogam, and stuck with it

),

Our cosmology... are polytheistic, and focus on a specific group of shinning ones that "speak to us" .

yes. polytheistic makes sense to me and many others, largely because we see the many varied 'forces' that move us and polytheism is a way of 'naming' the forces, no? The Tarot does this without also making these forces 'deity's, or 'personalities' meant for human worship.
but its essentially the same idea, i think.

a little history: as near as i can tell, the Tarot first made it's debut during the Italian Renaissance (1400-1500 ish) - i'm not too particular about exact dates, so if others are, feel free to post 'em-. They were a simple set of 'playing' cards made for some Italian Aristo family. Over the centuries they have been added to, updated, argued over and further symbolically developed, with the newest sets including alchemical and astrological attributions, that further define the specific 'idea'. Today, there are many thousands of different sets made for many different reasons, not all of which are based in the same traditions ...

My interest lies in the sets that have clear lineage because they represent development on the very earliest ideas and contain the most information (hints). So this means: The Golden Dawn sets, A.E Waite's set, the Thoth deck, Paul Foster Case's set, and a number of more recent ones that i am not aware of.

i use them not as a divinitory tool (tho i do pull random cards here and there), but more as a lesson book... a contextual framework in which to understand and deal with the many forces that move/are moved by us.

Currently most decks have 78 cards: 22 major arcana and 56 minor arcana. The majors deal with forces larger than humans and the minors deal with human scale forces. Right there, we can see that the Tarot tells us that 1/3 of what moves us is completely beyond our power to control, while 2/3 is within our grasp.

If you look closely at the Majors, u see that they are a division of the mighty forces that move us as human animals. Very very briefly we have:
- the now or moment: the fool (0)
-the arch-typical gender expressions: priestess (2), magician (1), empress (3) and emperor (4)
-wisdom (9), strength (8), luck (10), justice (11), teaching (5), love (6), death (13), art/magik (14), hope (17)...

for a total of 22 (which, indecently is the old alchemical number meaning "circle" because 22 is the first whole number that pie (3.14) divides into)

after a coupla more decades (1 decade into study currently) of thought and experience, i might actually really understand them and sometimes, looking at how other systems divide these forces can shed light on to my own studies, so:

Do the Druids have a system for dividing these 'major' spirits or forces?

But we tend to see the world not in the 4 "classical elements" but more complex.

the world according to the Tarot is more complex than the four elements also, but like the primary colors (RGB) which can be combined in different measures to create any color, so the 4 'elements' can be combined in different measures to create any more complex expression and each major has one or more elemental attributions that help us to understand them.

for example:
the emperor = strong earth
the Star (hope) = strong water
the high priestess = strong water

further i am finding it very useful to frame people's personalities in different elemental combination (most humans being a combo of two). If u begin to really understand these metaphorical definitions u (i) can really see how and why people do or do not work well together.

earth + fire = good: the earth absorbs the energy
fire + air = explosive: not always bad
fire + water = often hiss and spitting or just plain fizzles

a very simplistic (and incomplete) elemental definition:

fire = passion, leadership, performance, inspiration, raw energy : both male and female "the wand"
water = love, memory, subconscious, creativity, deep thinking : female "the cup"
earth = wealth, friends, skill, work, foundation, home, stability : both male and female "the coin"
air = communication, logic, rapid thought, decision making : male "the sword"

can u see how easily it would be to frame human personalities in this context? and like root equations in science (or which there are only a few), the proper combination can produce almost any human flavor, i think. and so i spend most of my thought here, on the elements, and once better understood, i should be able to combine (and understand their combinations) better.

the elements can also be framed in terms of skills or tools:the mastery of which brings more capabilities to one's life: i have acquired (learned) the sword and the cup, am very close the the coin and just stepped on to the path of fire...and i dunno if the wand is within my grasp...

Originally posted by galactix

Originally posted by wildoracle13
" Dedicating myself to a God and Goddess just doesn't feel right to me, I think I will worship Darth Vader instead."

Are we to teach newcomers to follow their hearts or follow the beaten path?

nothing new is ever discovered along the beaten path.

maybe you were not listening, but Yoda had it more correct and Darth Vader is an important lesson.

tradition is useful..to a point.. but i feel it should be considered a foundation, not a cage... and sometimes we just gotta start with a whole new shape.

the 'force' is as useful a metaphor as any other, and based upon my research, it might actually be closer than many other useful metaphorical frameworks to what actually is.

if one is not open to new ideas, one is not open to change... just sayin'

You missed the point I believe, sorry I don't follow you on the metaphor as I haven't seen the Star Wars movies or whatever. One must learn existing traditions, all of which are based on worshiping (I hate that word) a creator, he/she/them what have you. Knowledge of said traditions are the foundation upon where ritual is built. How can someone call themselves a follower of earth based religion when freaking Darth Vader is replaced as creator?
Don't get me wrong, new ideas and change are all part of building those rituals, beliefs etc but deviating from the foundation so far as to change it's purpose, creates what? Delusion...? We combine knowledge with facts to create belief. How you can define Darth as a fact completely escapes me.

reply to post by Druid42


We as Elders?? No no no, not me. That is a term reserved only for those who deserve such a title.

Originally posted by wildoracle13
How can someone call themselves a follower of earth based religion when freaking Darth Vader is replaced as creator?
Don't get me wrong, new ideas and change are all part of building those rituals, beliefs etc but deviating from the foundation so far as to change it's purpose, creates what? Delusion...? We combine knowledge with facts to create belief. How you can define Darth as a fact completely escapes me.

i do not believe in a creator, but i do worship what most people refer to as a "God".

Darth Vader is not replaced as a 'creator'. He is a lesson in what happens when you stray too far from 'Earth'... when u let anger and 'ideas' drive you. when u ignore your feelings: good lessons.

i believe we combine feelings with observations and build belief which leads to faith. "Facts" and 'knowledge" are so slippery... and different sets of 'facts' can 'explain' the same set of conditions.: this is Plato's cave allegory, and it is as true now as it was then.

are then the Hoodoo (native american + african magik) practitioners 'delusional'?

as far as i can tell, the 'purpose' of these traditions are to bring understanding,

You would be surprised at how many humans are moved by the 'force' metaphor: it certainly applies more to our modern context, given technology an' all. If you wish to speak to these individuals , u would do better by translating your 'facts' into their context, then bemoaning their lack or 'foundation'.

or simply ignore them: why do u care?

reply to post by wildoracle13


this is an example of what i mean when i say that many are moved by the Star wars context:

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Originally posted by wildoracle13
reply to post by Druid42

 

We as Elders?? No no no, not me. That is a term reserved only for those who deserve such a title.

In total agreement with you on this one Sister. I've been Blessed with many gifts...teaching, in this time, is not one of them.

Direct I can do if the Spirit so guides me...Teacher I'm not....yet.

reply to post by galactix



Hey Thanks for the crash course in Tarot. I know a little about the history, but the use, meh, just not my bag, mind you many people don't take to Ogam thinking it's "all trees" (which it is not).

Ok there are several types of polytheism. But two main streams. Hard polytheism (all gods are separate) and soft polytheism (similar gods are the face of an archtype, or even part of the source"). Myself I am a hard polytheist. Over time I have become more and more convinced of this being right, for me. But it is a UPG (unverified personal gnosis) and I respect others views if they respect mine.

Most pagans see the world as made up of the 4 (or 5) classical western elements (air, earth, fire, water and perhaps Spirit/aether for 5), that just does not work for me, I think as a holder of a PHD in chemistry (and working on a masters in Bioinformatics (long story for another time)) that influences me a lot. SO the Indo-European idea of 9(ish) bits of the divine twin (or a divine cow) makes more sense.

Originally posted by wildoracle13
reply to post by Druid42

 

We as Elders?? No no no, not me. That is a term reserved only for those who deserve such a title.

I agree whole heartedly! But thanks to bad experiences with folks claiming this title, I am biased. I am lucky that the "elders" in my Druidic community are the clergy who have spent years in the certified training course (I am just starting that now), oh wait we call them clergy.

perchance the OP means teachers?

Originally posted by Noinden
SO the Indo-European idea of 9(ish) bits of the divine twin (or a divine cow) makes more sense.

can you share a bit more detail on the divine twin their 9(ish) bits?

i curious.

edit: The Wikipedia article was useless (on Ogen) and i've no wish to plumb bazillions of info sites getting it all different...

reply to post by galactix


Ok so I am sorry this has taken a bit of time, I've been busy in the lab. But here is a quick and dirty (with links) break down.

The Divine twins are seen in many of the indo-european mythologies (en.wikipedia.org...). In many of these one of the twins kills the other and creates the universe from the bits (though sometimes it is a divine cow or something too). This is reflected in many of the cultures.

Originally posted by Noinden

Originally posted by wildoracle13
reply to post by Druid42

 

We as Elders?? No no no, not me. That is a term reserved only for those who deserve such a title.

I agree whole heartedly! But thanks to bad experiences with folks claiming this title, I am biased. I am lucky that the "elders" in my Druidic community are the clergy who have spent years in the certified training course (I am just starting that now), oh wait we call them clergy.

perchance the OP means teachers?

Sorry for my absence, I was busy with "other" things, but I'd like to make a few comments. I've read through, and several disclaim the title of Elder. There is no shame in that. I also welcome you, Noinden. Well met.

Noinden, to you I have to say that an "Elder" is a teacher, as well as any other pagan who has studied for a long time and who has helped others. An "Elder" is not the achievement of completing a certified training course, but one who has dedicated their selves to the art, and has the ability to teach, and the patience to answer questions.

We are crossing a tenuous line here, where you would like to equate an "Elder" to the Christian equivalent of a "Pastor", "Reverend", or "Priest". I was "Ordained" years ago, a distasteful title now, as I see how others view the process, and get deceived by others. Most "Elders" adhere to the same "power-control" structure that Christianity does, that you are lesser and they are greater, more knowledgeable, and I'm pretty sure that is where your bias comes into play. We are all equal, and until we share equally the knowledge we have, there will always be a schism in the position we perceive ourselves to be in. When someone claims to be an "Elder", which I may have done inadvertently, thinking I had a group of like-minded individuals all equal, I mistakenly went on the path of deception. I would like to correct that. I do not intend to mislead.

Originally posted by Druid42

Originally posted by wildoracle13
I've been watching some youtube videos submitted by a few of my favorite pagan friends lately and have noticed a common trend. There seems to be some arguement about beginners of the craft creating their own tradition. Some "teachers" out there are directing students of the craft to do what feels right.

This has sparked a lot of outrage in the community over how to deal with this situation. One of the comments made was something like, " Dedicating myself to a God and Goddess just doesn't feel right to me, I think I will worship Darth Vader instead." Unfortunately, this type of thing is actually going on in some circles and there is a great fear among many Pagans that this type of behavior is diluting what we have left of traditions world wide.

I want to know what position you guys take on this very important topic. Are we to teach newcomers to follow their hearts or follow the beaten path?

It's their hearts, as always. We as Elders are to guide them, and let them seek their own abilities. Once they see what they are capable of, then some true direction can take place. WE may be the guides, but we must also realize our humility. We are no better than the student, for we were once there.

Think about it, and pause.

I think this is the post in question. Read the context. Read the bold.

As a Pagan, you should have no fear, only your path ahead. Fear is a negative emotion, and one of the first things you need to let go of. Yes, you will be persecuted amongst Christian peers, but stand your ground, and have patience. Christians are imbued with fear of hell, and since their fear is their primary motivation, they live their lives in constant fear.

See beyond that trap, that you don't need to be controlled by fear, or controlled by lack of knowledge in your art. Your duty is to follow your path as a Pagan, and nobody can tell you what that is except you.

You'll find friends as you follow your path, and as you listen, you'll learn. Nobody has complete knowledge, nobody has the "correct path", and if anyone tells you that, they are wrong.

The bits of wisdom we share with each other help us on our path. That is what being a Pagan is all about. An "Elder" only has the title if his/her peers give it to him/her. It's not something you get from a certified course, it's not something you declare, or brag about, it's something known, and unspoken, and revered. It's not a title I want if people utilize jealousy, scorn, or disdain. It's just something you acknowledge, like the rising sun on a dewy morning in the summer while you walk across the grass in your bare feet, like breathing in the air on a crisp fall morning while the trees are shedding their leaves around you, or something really simple like watching the lilacs breaking ground during the early spring.

You really have to step away from all the labels that people place on you, step back from all requirements that people expect from you, and just be yourself, one with nature.

Blessed be,
Druid42, what you speak is quite true. Someone claiming to Wiser than his/her students, is in fact not. A wise person never states they are Wiser as we all continue to learn and are therefore never Wiser than others.

Namasté

reply to post by KhaliWitch

Khali,

It'd be my opinion that everyone who studies Paganism should have read a few on Buddhism as well. Zen Buddhism in particular.

*bow*

reply to post by Druid42


Notice I put it as "elders" for ADF Clergy. I'm just entering that phase there, and at 39 I'd be one of the younger trainee clergy. In ADF the clergy are also teachers, so it fits your terminology.

I've an issue with the term "elder" as many communities see that s giving the holder of the title cart blanche to be a dooche. Milwaukee (where I was most recently living till moving home to New Zealand) had that problem, and the problems cause by this is ... well well known all over the USA