US Marine in critical condition after OccupyOakland

reply to post by AGWskeptic


Except for the small problem that the Oakland Police Department does not use, nor does it have any rubber bullets or similiar in its inventory. All the info also shows that it was only Oakland police present, ruling out an outside agency using that munition.

The videos taken from different angles show one of the Oakland officers tossing 2 flash bangs in that direction. IT also shows the marine going to the ground when the first bang goes off because of the people scattering and bumping into each other, followed a few seconds by the next flash bang detonation.

Flashbang - M84 - Source

A stun grenade, also known as a flashbang, is a non-lethal weapon. The first devices like this were created in the 1960s at the order of the British Special Air Service as an incapacitant.

These grenades are designed to temporarily neutralize the combat effectiveness of enemies by disorienting their senses. The flash of light momentarily activates all light sensitive cells in the eye, making vision impossible for approximately five seconds until the eye restores itself to its normal, unstimulated state. The extremely loud blast produced by the grenade adds to its incapacitating properties by disturbing the fluid in the ear.

When detonated, the fuse/grenade body assembly remains intact. The body is a tube with holes along the sides that emit the light and sound of the explosion. The explosion does not cause shrapnel injury, but can still burn. The concussive blast of the detonation can injure and the heat created can ignite flammable materials such as fuel. The fires that occurred during the Iranian Embassy Siege in London were caused by stun grenades. The filler consists of about 4.5 grams of a pyrotechnic metal-oxidant mix of magnesium or aluminium and an oxidizer such as ammonium perchlorate or potassium perchlorate.

* Emphesis added by me *


As with any less than lethal device, as well as just walking down the street, and injury can occur. However, we dont know how the Marine was injured, and nothing in the videos show exactly what caused his injury, which is why the investigation was rated priority and turned over to the PA's office instead of the Police department.

Should we wait for the investigation or should be get the rope and find a tree now for the 100 meter rush to judgment.

What some people in this thread are ignroing is the fact that protestors were throwing glass bottles, rocks poaint and other items at the police when the flash bangs were used. Any reason there is a rush to judge the police while ignoring the actions of some of the protestors? How about when the marine went to the ground, is it possible he hit his head, or something hit him, or possibly one of the other scattering protestors got tangled up in the process, excacerbating the injury?


If the injury was caused by the flash bang, youre still going to be hard pressed to find anthing illegal with the action taken. Unless it was a policy violation or the officer violated local or state law, the use of those items are allowed.

Why am I pointing this stuff out? Its not to protect / side with the officers, or to condemn the protestors. I do this so that people can get a better idea of both sides of that incident, instead of just running into the wall with blinders on simply because the in thing right now is to blame law enforcement, while ignoring anything coming from the non law enforcement side.

Use common sense please people, knock the 100 meter rush to judgment off and let the investigation run its course. Ive seen many of you argue that a person is innocent until proven guilty, and law enforcement is protected under the guaranteed right.

Respects

Originally posted by Xcathdra

Originally posted by technical difficulties
Here's a few examples:



blog.wallack.us...

I stated that the original tea party broke the law. You should read posts before you reply to them. Also,
en.wikipedia.org...

edit on 27-10-2011 by technical difficulties because: (no reason given)

Are you not familiar with history?

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. by Thomas Jefferson

God forbid people do research and actually learn about the history of this country and what our founding fathers talked about.

Taking that term and trying to portray the Tea party as violent isnt just funny, but it demonstrates a severe lack of common sense and ignorance of this countrys history.

What's funny is being in complete denial of the quote being violent. That quote was clearly talking about violent revolutions, especially given the time period. It being from the founding fathers doesn't magically make it peaceful.

You also seemed to not understand why I posted that (which I can blame myself for considering I removed the previous posts so the quote wouldn't be so huge). A guy on here was complaining about double standards, and I replied to him talk about other double standards, one of those being how people like him were ok with Tea Partiers threatening violence, but not ok when OWSers do the same.

reply to post by technical difficulties


No I got your point.

Blaming the Tea party for certain members using that slogan is no different than blaming a German for what the Nazis did.

Blaming an entire group for the views of some of its members is no more intelligent than blaming all of OWS for some of its members pushing for violence. Would you like to see the list of groups that back OWS? Neo Nazi groups, Communist groups etc. Because those groups support the OWS movement, does it make all OWS part of the Nazi or Communist movement / groups and does it mean OWS subscribes to those ideologies and goals?

When people get off their blinded high horse about the tea party, others will get off theirs about OWS.

Both groups are split - OWS AND the Tea Party.

Namely both groups have members who are their for a genuine purpose, which is that of effecting change within the government system we have now. The other half are people, again in both groups, who seize on that movement in order to push a different agenda while hiding behind the group.

Its like the MIAC report that came out, where people went nuts because they took it as targeting third party candidates. What people refused to take note on was the fact that more violent groups were using thrid party candidates, like Ron Paul, as a cover for their activities.

As people pointed out with the G20 in Canada, all it takes is one or two people to be in the mob, to throw something, which sets the entire encounter off into a confrontation, with both the police and the legitimate protestors blaming each other for the escalation.

The 100 meter rush to judgment using the blanket mentality doesnt work.



respects

reply to post by Xcathdra


There are pictures and video of protestors that were shot by rubber bullets, one had 2 wounds about 4 inches apart about the size of a dime, and there is a rubber bullet with 2 balls. The other is a single bruise very similar to the bruise a single rubber bullet would produce. There are also empty .12 ga shells marked as rubber bullets, and rubber bullets themselves that have been recovered reportedly at the scene.

Is that 100% proof that the OPD used them? No, but it's pretty strong evidence pointing to that fact. I doubt these guys shot each other then dropped the stuff at the scene.

If the police had evidence that strong against a perp they'd have them in cuffs before you could spit.

No inquests, just jail.


And for the record I disagree with the use of flash bangs on crowds, they have killed people before. There are less violent ways to get the job done.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
reply to post by technical difficulties

 

No I got your point.

Blaming the Tea party for certain members using that slogan is no different than blaming a German for what the Nazis did.

Blaming an entire group for the views of some of its members is no more intelligent than blaming all of OWS for some of its members pushing for violence.

I'm not blaming the tea party for a few people threatening violence, just as i'm not blaming the OWS movement for a few people threatening violence.

I think it's pretty obvious that he was hit initially by either a rubber bullet or some type of bean bag, in the head. You have someone who knows him say that and you can even see him in the flash bang video. Eye witness to what happened.

www.youtube.com...

Tossing a flash bang, or even a CS grenade so close to a defenseless person in no position to react to it is reckless if not criminal.

Originally posted by AGWskeptic
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

There are pictures and video of protestors that were shot by rubber bullets, one had 2 wounds about 4 inches apart about the size of a dime, and there is a rubber bullet with 2 balls. The other is a single bruise very similar to the bruise a single rubber bullet would produce. There are also empty .12 ga shells marked as rubber bullets, and rubber bullets themselves that have been recovered reportedly at the scene.

Which would be miraculous since OPD does not use, nor does it have any rubber bullets in its inventory. Kind of hard to delpoy something that you dont have is it not?

Originally posted by AGWskeptic
Is that 100% proof that the OPD used them? No, but it's pretty strong evidence pointing to that fact. I doubt these guys shot each other then dropped the stuff at the scene.

Thats called a leap of logic and is problematic because it assumes something as fact based on supposition and not solid evidence. Specifically the accusation rubber bullets were in use and caused the marines injury is not supported by the video evidence either. Rubber bullets arent lobbed, they are discharged. Its shows the officer tossing 2 flash bangs in the middle of the protestors.

If a rubber bullet was used where did it come from? To take a step back ask yourself this question. People are upset at wall street, and since they police are present, that anger can get shifted / refocused to them. Any injury that may occur to a protestor could be used in a manner inconsitent with the action IE someone tripping over a curb and injuring themselves could be spun that the police were behind it.

I make this suggestion based on a few protestors advocating violence against the police / other groups. Does it mean all protestors are of that mindset? Nope, and based on that the protestors shouldnt assume any injury to a protestor is a result of police actions.

Originally posted by AGWskeptic
If the police had evidence that strong against a perp they'd have them in cuffs before you could spit.

Again a leap of logic. Its one thing when there are a few people around. Its an entirely different scenario when you are dealing with mass quantities of people in a confined area. In those circumstances the major focus will be to be present yet distances from the protestors. If something goes wrong the goal is to disperse the crowd using area of effect items (tear gas / pepper spray / flash bangs). Wading into a throng of people who are already upset and looking for an outlet of their anger and frustration actually can escalate the problem.

A situation that normally would be lowe to medium risk can easily escelate to the use of deadly force simply because of the sheer number of people. Its one of the reasons you see a police line move as a line and not as individuals. Those who are "over run" by the line are dealt with by the follow up officers while the rest are dispersed.

In theswe cases the goal is not so much to arrest, but to regain some semblence of order by dispersing the crowd.

Originally posted by AGWskeptic
No inquests, just jail.

Since law enforcement doesnt charge, try or convict people they arrest, this would be correct - they go straight to jail. Once there they will be processed and issued a citation for a court appearence if the accusation is a low level crime. If its felony level they are booked, a PC is filed and the PA decides what to do (actually in all of those cases its the PA).


And for the record I disagree with the use of flash bangs on crowds, they have killed people before. There are less violent ways to get the job done.


Disagreement is fine wbut when people arent familiar with them, what they do, how they are deployed etc I can see the confusion and how that confusion can escalate into something its not. As for things that kill people, a protestor could be standing there doing nothing and drop dead from natural causes. What you and some others are either not seeing / understanding or just plain ignoring is the manner those items are used.

The crowd is given multiple / loud / clear commands to disperse from the area they are in. It doesnt mean they cant protest, but it does mean they must move. Once those commands are heard and ignored, again after multiple notices, then those items are employed.

A flash bang going off is a lot safer tahn they way it use to be - Batons, and advancing police line resulting in the beat and release polices of the wearly years. Something we should never strive to go back to.

People must get over this notion that if the police tell you to move while protesting that they are trying to end the protest. Instead of using common sense and getting clarification, people just assume and most of the time the assumption is incorrect.

respects

Originally posted by jefwane
I think it's pretty obvious that he was hit initially by either a rubber bullet or some type of bean bag, in the head. You have someone who knows him say that and you can even see him in the flash bang video. Eye witness to what happened.

2 items that are not present, and not used in crowd control.

OPD doesnt have or use rubber bullets and bean bag rounds arent used for crowd control.

So not sure where the ideas are coming from for those.

The video from one of the protestors shows an officer tossing 2 flashbangs into that portion of the protestors. The simple fact the officer just tossed them actually demonstrates how close the protestors were to those officers.

Question - If you were one of those officers, standing behind police barricades doing nothing but observing, and you have a throng of protestors who are throwing glass bottles, rocks, paint etc at you while getting closer and yelling, what would your reaction be?

If they are there to protest, why advance on the officers? Thats only going to cause a confrontation, as we saw.

reply to post by Xcathdra


I dunno. I think they used them. You say they don't have them, but I find it hard to believe they couldn't obtain them for this demonstration. Also hard to believe that these people are making it up and have some to plant and frame OPD.

Now, even if they really didn't use rubber bullets, they did in face use excessive force and endangered lives.
They did for fact use bean bags, flash bangs, and tear gas.

The link below shows evidence towards rubber bullets.

LINK

OPD said they didn't use flashbangs, but you have seen the videos. You are familiar with the weapons what do you think the loud flashing explosions were. They look exactly like concussion grenades and I don't see them smoking (i did see smoke, but not from the flashbangs that they DID use).

Question - If you were one of those officers, standing behind police barricades doing nothing but observing, and you have a throng of protestors who are throwing glass bottles, rocks, paint etc at you while getting closer and yelling, what would your reaction be?

How big of a #!@$ am I that I am standing on this side of the wall?

reply to post by GogoVicMorrow


OPD states they didnt use rubber bullets because they dont have them. That came directly from the Chief when he addressed the issue while announcing the PA investigation.

The flash bangs, pepper spray and tear gas are all designed to disperse crowds without the need of a mass group of officers rolling into the crowd and engaging in essentialy hand to hand combat with protestors.

The question stands though on why that group felt the need to not only advance on the officer line, but to get so close that you can see the barricades and the fact the group was within tossing distance of the flash bang.

The use of the flash bang and tear gas, from what ive seen, are consitent with their intent and deployed in the same manner. Although I concede the use of those items are also governed by department policy and I am not familiar with OPD's.

Tear gas and flash bangs are a lot safer than the rocks, glass bottles and paint thrown at the officers prior to the deployment.

Originally posted by 0zzymand0s

Question - If you were one of those officers, standing behind police barricades doing nothing but observing, and you have a throng of protestors who are throwing glass bottles, rocks, paint etc at you while getting closer and yelling, what would your reaction be?

How big of a #!@$ am I that I am standing on this side of the wall?

Congrats

you missed the point of the question.

Wanna try again?

reply to post by 0zzymand0s

How big of a #!@$ am I that I am standing on this side of the wall?

Yes, it is completely reasonable to let mobs of people wander around and do whatever the hell they want.

Honestly, it takes a certain personality to approach a police barricade. You are just looking to get from point A to point B and conduct yourself accordingly, or you are wishing to "make a stand" and cause a conflict to stand against.

That's it. Everyone else leaves it alone.

reply to post by Xcathdra


Nevermind. I see. Rubber bullets were used, but it was by "other law enforcement agencies" at the scene.
However OPD did lie about not using flashbangs as seen in videos, so why should we believe they didn't use rubber bullets?

I guess they are using the mysterious other agency loophole.

In a statement about the clashes, Oakland police said that they did not use rubber bullets or flashbang grenades, but cannot speak for the other law enforcement agencies on the scene.

Source

Originally posted by NightGypsy
reply to post by AnonymousFem

 

Is there any updates on the condition of this marine? Has the Officer in question been suspended, or put on administrative leave. Is there an investigation been launched?

No one will be suspended. The crowd was warned and they refused to disperse. It really is that simple, whether you like it or not.

Who cares if they were warned? They were doing nothing wrong and they had every right to be there as the cops did. It's their tax dollars that pay for the area AND the cops salaries. The cops are supposed to protect and serve, not boss around and throw grenades at you. When they were helping out a fallen friend, what the hell was wrong or illegal about that. How was the cop that threw the flash bang protecting or serving the fallen victim? These cops are nothing but trash today and anyone who agrees with them and their action, they are trash too. The way that I see it is, anyone who agrees with tyranny (which clearly the cops of today have demonstrated in spades).......is just one of them and that's the reason they agree or support them. Why would someone in the 99% agree with the cops behaviors today unless they were one of THEM? One day soon, the crowds are going to turn and majority rule will have a whole different meaning. ......the voice of the majority will either be 99% of the population making the wrong decision or agreeing to do something about those puppets (cops) who are the iron hand of those who abuse the 99%, ...which is the right thing. Like it or not.

reply to post by Xcathdra


Again.. OPD said they didn't use flashbangs either so I don't know why I should believe they didn't have or use rubber bullets. Especially when people were shot by them.

reply to post by AzureSky


I'm sure all of the Orphans in Iraq will be praying for his well being!

reply to post by GogoVicMorrow


I wouldnt say they lied, since as you can see from the vidoes how chaotic things are. Hence the reason its turned over to the PA for investigation instead of IA.

The other agencies being involved is a new one,. The info I read only contained OPD reference. If other agencies were present and using rubber bullets then yes, that creates the possibility then of the Marine being hit by one. Could it be possible the officers we saw arent OPD (the ones tossing flash bang). Are there any clearer videos that show agency patch?

However it doesnt excuse the advance on the police line, and im not sure why people ignore that part. Any insights on that one?

reply to post by GogoVicMorrow


Must have been those TSA agents pulled off the highways.

I sure wish they'd get the story straight, either they were the only police officers there or they weren't.

It not a hard question to answer. If it is hard for them I could see how people got messed up, they lacked basic command and control.

reply to post by Phenomium


Law Enforcement pays taxes as well, so no, they dont have their salaries paid for by just the people.

They have every right to be there while non violent and non threatening to anyone else or any property. If they are there to protest corporate greed, why would they need to advance on a police line to the extent of being withing spitting distance of them? When they were given warnings to clear why didnt they comply and go back to the main protest area?

Your rights end the moment they interfere with the rights of others.

What happened prior to the video?
What happened after the video?
Why did they advance on the police?