German tanks in WW2. Were they really that bad?

Well, according to my knowledge Germans had best tanks from all countries. And that's including the crews, because those fellas really knew how to use their toys.
edit: Remember, it was germans who first introduced crews with strictly divided duties and commander giving orders.

But hey, not only tanks, they had best military engineers, scientists and industrial capabilities in whole world. U-Boats were nearly a masterpiece of those times with their diesel engines.
They also designed first rockets ever, and used them on small scale. Everything US had after war regarding space program was german in origin.

Just look at todays designs, stuff varying from AK-47 to US standard isssue helmets.

reply to post by stainlesssteelrat


Take a wild guess where the modern jet turbine engine design comes from. Berlin was a pinata, and when the youngest country got all the toys, the oldest got mad.

Here was the Jagdpanther tank distroyer, It was a single directional turret and had the most powerful punch of all the German tanks!

en.wikipedia.org...

The only problem was it was slow and could be flanked easy. It was best used with a suport to cover its flanks

reply to post by camaro68ss


I know what it is, I just didn't include it because they were extremely rare.

My grandad was in an allied tank divison in WW2 and told me a story about a time when he and his crew fired a shell at a german panzer and watched it just bounce off! He said they abandoned their tank and ran for their lives.

Thats always been my favourite story!

reply to post by 11I11


My Grandpa told me a story about getting word that a German tank (he didn't say what kind), was coming through a small town to get supplies. So four Sherman tank crews set up and ambush and waited for them. They hit them from each side at close range, and took the tank out.

He also told me a story about how they ran like hell from only two German tanks.

Originally posted by Evolutionsend
reply to post by pointr97

 

Read the wiki. According to them they were not good tanks. The "idiot" I have firsthand information from was my Grandpa. He claims that although they were feared, a German tank could be picked off by a pack of Shermans. He also claims that they were cocky and had no problems being completely alone.

I start by saying this is all written with a light sense of humor, I mean zero disrespect if my words of read in a different way than intended....

Wiki.....Seriously, your trusting them to lead us down the path of truth.......I will say that is something that West Point taught me, the lessons of WWI and WWII......In WWII, the Major Problem that the Germans had was the top leadership, there were many field commanders that were brilliant. However, they didn't get the support OR the upper leadership negated the strategy, ie, starting a two war front (beginning of the end) with Russia, who they had a NAP with at the time. WWII can not be wrapped up effectively in a wiki, there were so many theaters and campaigns that it is impossible to boil it into a simple wiki. That being said...
....
You said a Pack of Shermans, the Sherman tank was a 'mother of invention' concept....It was a wonderful little tank that would fire anything you put in the barrel. It was a fast little tank, had a huge barrel and would literally fire all kinds of round down to scatter shot. But it was a light tank, kind of like the AK-47,....cheap, easy, and if you dropped them in mud, they continue to fire. It would take a full Platoon(4 tanks) to harass a heavy german tank. So please explain to me how a fight between multiple units and a single unit makes that single unit bad tech? ....

Not sure who or what your grandpa did in WWII, but both of mine were there too. And I will say this from experience, their stories are what is called tactical stories. A tactical unit is a small unit, company or platoon. There are always exceptions to every rule, and what I have learned by my grandparents stories compared to my education is that.....

1. They are very entertaining
2. There are great kernels of truth to be learned
3. It was very long ago, and their memories are suspect: age(the age they experienced it, age they are telling it), point of view, and propaganda(we told our boys that the german equip sucked, on purpose).

WWII was huge, hence the World part of the title....The Germans lost for many reasons, but the main reason was Leadership....The list of reasons the Germans lost WWII does Not include tech problems.....

Originally posted by stainlesssteelrat
Well, according to my knowledge Germans had best tanks from all countries. And that's including the crews, because those fellas really knew how to used their toys.

But hey, not only tanks, they had best military engineers, scientists and industrial capabilities in whole world. U-Boats were nearly a masterpiece of those times with their diesel engines.
They also designed first rockets ever, and used them on small scale. Everything US had after war regarding space program was german in origin.

Just look at todays designs, stuff varying from AK-47 to US standard isssue helmets.

Yes almost all of our modern weaponry is based upon Axis designs.

For example the A-10 Thunderbolt II ground attack craft is designed heavily borrowing from this aircraft design from Germany in WW2, the Junkers 'unnamed' jet ground attack aircraft

Notice the similarities, like the tail and the dual engines (although in today's model the engines are moved back closer to the tail section).

Also the "new" V-22 Osprey tilt-rotor aircraft is based heavily upon a Nazi WW2 design, the Fa 269 which utilized a tilt-rotor system very similar to what you see today.

That's how far ahead they were in terms of technological development, the V-22 has only become operational in the last decade or so. There were a lot of technical problems/issues they had to work out first.

reply to post by pointr97


really the only foot up the shurman tank had was its speed. I belive it was the fastest tank in the war. But if you can track it and hit it just once its was down for the count.

reply to post by pointr97


According to his stories, breaking company policy was a regular thing. One German tank meant ambush, two meant RUN! I'm not saying they were bad tech, I'm saying that they were that good because it required more than one Sherman and some very unorthodox and dangerous tactics to get the job done.

Originally posted by Evolutionsend
reply to post by 11I11

 

My Grandpa told me a story about getting word that a German tank (he didn't say what kind), was coming through a small town to get supplies. So four Sherman tank crews set up and ambush and waited for them. They hit them from each side at close range, and took the tank out.

He also told me a story about how they ran like hell from only two German tanks.

edit on 25-10-2011 by Evolutionsend because: (no reason given)

Sorry, didn't see this post while I was working on my last one.....you just said it, there are exceptions to every rule:

They are cocky, well the germans were a bit cocky, but that is a unit aspect not a full trait of the entire german military.

They set up an ambush, sorry, but if you have fore knowledge that a single tank is coming in, and you have 4(platoon) shermans at your command. You had better be able to take it out or you need to resign your commission.

The sherman was a close range tank.

Sorry, but I love the story, and it has a very strange sound of Kelly's heroes....Yet, the story does not express in any way how the german tanks were bad tech.

reply to post by camaro68ss


Indeed. My Grandpa was the tank's driver, and he said company policy dictated that in a war zone no heads were to be outside the tank. According to him, that policy was a very bad idea. The only way to keep a Sherman from being a fireball, was to peak out, put foot to floor, and don't stop.

reply to post by Evolutionsend

The primary problem with later German armoured vehicles was not that they were "bad" either from a design or engineering perspective,but that they were labour intensive with far more production steps required to build say a Tiger 1 than there was in the case of a T-34.
As a result Soviet T-34 production far outstripped Tiger production,at one point by close on 1000-1 and at a point in the war where Germany required quantity rather than quality.
Sure the Tiger with its excellent 88mm gun could outshoot the T-34,but not at a rate that caused any real attrition to the soviets.Had Germany have had the luxury of being in a position to develop the Tiger and King Tiger to such a degree that most of the production methods had been perfected and they were able to turn them out in massive quantities,they would, I feel ,have prevented a Soviet victory against Germany in the east.

reply to post by SLAYER69
Russian tank suspension systems were based on the designs of Walter Christie, an American. Christie is thought by many to be the best tank designer of his day, too bad the Americans didn't listen to him.
Yes, a German tank could beat 5 American tanks. Thing is, the Americans always had that 6th tank. They also had the logistical tail to support those tanks. The Allies won WWII due to Soviet blood and American industry.

Originally posted by Evolutionsend
reply to post by pointr97

 

According to his stories, breaking company policy was a regular thing. One German tank meant ambush, two meant RUN! I'm not saying they were bad tech, I'm saying that they were that good because it required more than one Sherman and some very unorthodox and dangerous tactics to get the job done.

Then I apologize, I misunderstood the topic of this thread.....german tank's bad rap.

Sorry, I agree with your post, a sherman against any heavy german tank would require a lot of 'creative' thinking to kill it.

I was a tank commander many years ago, so this is a close topic to me....That being said, it is hard enough to say another countries tanks were better than ours, but yes the germans had better tanks......

Now the Sherman was a great tank.......the poster that said speed, yes, yes yes, Speed was the key aspect to the kill power of the sherman. If you can't track the sherman, you can't kill it.....It had a faster turret speed(turret rotation) and fast mov speed. However, the major tank battles of WWII were in north africa and they were decided by supply chain. Sherman, great light tank, but it is cannon fodder one on one with a panzer or any heavy german tank. I think we are on the same page, and again I love the story of your grandpa about ambushing the german tank.

Originally posted by DarthMuerte
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

Russian tank suspension systems were based on the designs of Walter Christie, an American. Christie is thought by many to be the best tank designer of his day, too bad the Americans didn't listen to him.

I'll quote that part. It always seems to be overlooked and or ignored.

Originally posted by Evolutionsend
Take a wild guess where the modern jet turbine engine design comes from.

Berlin was a pinata, and when the youngest country got all the toys, the oldest got mad.

You mean Vatican ? BTW, don't forget nearly every bank on Wall Street was giving huge loans to german military industrial complex. Hell, Opel, one of biggest tank manufacturer's in Germany was.... a wholly subsidiary of General Motors!
from wiki

Even after June 1940, official connections between Opel and America were not broken and monetary gain continued throughout the war which was controlled by the J.P Morgan firm

Originally posted by muzzleflash
Yes almost all of our modern weaponry is based upon Axis designs.

My favorite german IIWW design was definitely Horten Ho229. Gives you insight what those folks were capable of.

Originally posted by stainlesssteelrat
They also designed first rockets ever,

Please do research before making absurd claims like this. Von Braun got his ideas from American Robert Goddard.

Von Braun was working on his creative doctorate when the National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP, or Nazi party) came to power in a coalition government in Germany; rocketry almost immediately became part of the national agenda. An artillery captain, Walter Dornberger, arranged an Ordnance Department research grant for Von Braun, who then worked next to Dornberger's existing solid-fuel rocket test site at Kummersdorf. He was awarded a doctorate in physics[14] (aerospace engineering) on July 27, 1934 from the University of Berlin for a thesis titled About Combustion Tests; his doctoral advisor was Erich Schumann.[15] However, this thesis was only the public part of von Braun's work. His actual full thesis, Construction, Theoretical, and Experimental Solution to the Problem of the Liquid Propellant Rocket (dated April 16, 1934) was kept classified by the army, and was not published until 1960.[16] By the end of 1934, his group had successfully launched two rockets that rose to heights of 2.2 and 3.5 kilometers.

At the time, Germany was highly interested in American physicist Robert H. Goddard's research. Before 1939, German scientists occasionally contacted Goddard directly with technical questions. Wernher von Braun used Goddard's plans from various journals and incorporated them into the building of the Aggregat (A) series of rockets. The A-4 rocket is the well known V-2.[17] In 1963, von Braun reflected on the history of rocketry, and said of Goddard's work: "His rockets ... may have been rather crude by present-day standards, but they blazed the trail and incorporated many features used in our most modern rockets and space vehicles."[8] Goddard confirmed his work was used by von Braun in 1944, shortly before the Nazis began firing V-2s at England. A V2 crashed in Sweden and some parts were sent to an Annapolis lab where Goddard was doing research for the Navy. If this was the so-called Bäckebo Bomb, it had been procured by the British in exchange for Spitfires; Annapolis would have received some parts from them. Goddard is reported to have recognized components he had invented, and inferred that his brainchild had been turned into a weapon.

reply to post by pointr97


The funny, but not so funny part of that story, was that he thought he was about to die. The Sherman crews spent a lot of time avoiding the heavy German armor from what he said, and when he got orders to stand and fight even one, they weren't thrilled about it.

Originally posted by Evolutionsend
reply to post by pointr97

 

The funny, but not so funny part of that story, was that he thought he was about to die. The Sherman crews spent a lot of time avoiding the heavy German armor from what he said, and when he got orders to stand and fight even one, they weren't thrilled about it.

I can only imagine, there are so many images popping in my head reading your note. The nearest experience I can relate it too is coming around a turn in a bradley and coming face to face with 4 t-72's.....72 is not a great tank, but your first reaction is 'OH @$%^'. This is going to hurt.......