Do chistians see a prophetic "use" for Israel and the jews?

Originally posted by bogomil

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by bogomil

 

Which of all the optional anti-christs are you referring to?

I wasn't aware there was more than one "the" antichrist. You may have been called "an" antichrist, it would be inaccurate to call you "the" antichrist.

The Bible speaks of the spirit of antichrist and "the" antichrist himself. When Christ was speaking about the signs of His immanent return He was talking about what "the" antichrist would do.

That's an inter-christian quibbling on the point of who the 'true' christians are, and which (and how many) candidates for anti-christ(s) they have. Considering that most of you are 'heretics' from certain perspectives, the point is meaningless and ridiculous for a non-believer, even in the case of a non-believer taking the concept of an anti-christ seriously (which I doubt many do).

HUH??? I've not discussed anything whatsoever about what a true Christian is or is not. Who cares about the quibbling in regards to that?

If it's meaningless and ridiculous then why are you here? Do you normally spend an inordinate amount of time discussing things you find to be meaningless and ridiculous?

reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

That's the problem, your to busy feeding your head with the opinions of scholars instead of reading and understanding the prophecy for yourself. If you don't understand the prophecy spoken of by Jesus then you have more studying to do.

The problem is studying? I suggest everyone study, but from people who are qualified in their field, not people who just write for a buck and plagiarizing other's work. Tell me how much you understand about prophecy from just you sitting there reading the Bible, without any other input.

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— Matthew 24:15

That would have been to do with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[a] had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2

When it comes to the Thessalonian letters, you have to choose one or the other. The second letter says, disregard the first letter because that was a forgery. You can either believe that claim, and throw out the first letter, or believe the first one was real and that the second one was lying, so throw that one out. You can't keep both. All the scholars I read accept the first because it fits the other writings of Paul, while the second does not.

Everyone and there brother knows the temple has to rebuilt before the end can come. It's not that great of a mystery.

This answers my earlier question, you do believe it because someone told you. If you hear something enough times, then it seems real to you.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


You wrote:

["HUH??? I've not discussed anything whatsoever about what a true Christian is or is not. Who cares about the quibbling in regards to that?"]

Considering the importance to extremist-christians (personally I don't care a fig) for establishing the identity of an alleged anti-christ, the premises around it certainly must play a big role.

Quote: ["If it's meaningless and ridiculous then why are you here?"]

That one AGAIN. You must be very selective in your reading, if you haven't seen the answer dozens of times. But for your sake, to diminish your ignorance: You don't have to be a nazist to see the importance of relating to nazism.

Quote: ["Do you normally spend an inordinate amount of time discussing things you find to be meaningless and ridiculous?"]

If I find them potentially threatening to mankind and the planet we live on....YES.

reply to post by jmdewey60


You wrote:

["Tell me how much you understand about prophecy from just you sitting there reading the Bible, without any other input."]

A very good point. There are several relevant perspectives on 'prophecies' per se, outside the closed world of bible-studies. Not least prophecies from competing religions and similar, where some common reference-points are needed.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

 

That's the problem, your to busy feeding your head with the opinions of scholars instead of reading and understanding the prophecy for yourself. If you don't understand the prophecy spoken of by Jesus then you have more studying to do.

The problem is studying? I suggest everyone study, but from people who are qualified in their field, not people who just write for a buck and plagiarizing other's work. Tell me how much you understand about prophecy from just you sitting there reading the Bible, without any other input.

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— Matthew 24:15

That would have been to do with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[a] had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2

When it comes to the Thessalonian letters, you have to choose one or the other. The second letter says, disregard the first letter because that was a forgery. You can either believe that claim, and throw out the first letter, or believe the first one was real and that the second one was lying, so throw that one out. You can't keep both. All the scholars I read accept the first because it fits the other writings of Paul, while the second does not.

Everyone and there brother knows the temple has to rebuilt before the end can come. It's not that great of a mystery.

This answers my earlier question, you do believe it because someone told you. If you hear something enough times, then it seems real to you.

edit on 27-10-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

I'm not going to fall into your debate about Paul, which is something you keep trying to hammer people over the head with.

I can understand the prophecies because I have the "Holy Spirit" as my teacher, who guides us to all truth. But I guess your teacher is the "Holy Scholar"

And you can not possibly prove that Jesus was talking about the destruction which occurred in 70ad, that is just one idea of many and none of those have been proven.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

You are the one who made a statement, that Jesus could not return unless they rebuild the temple in Jerusalem. I said something like, "And you know that because someone told you?"

Well, considering Jesus Himself said the "sign" that His return would be imminent would be the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel. You can't have the antichrist sitting in the temple of God proclaiming himself as God without a temple!

You will have to elaborate some on this to explain what you are talking about.
Mathew 24
1Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2“Do you see all these things?” he asked. “I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
15“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’b spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

2 Thessalonians 2:4
who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

There is no individual person, The Antichrist.
If Paul had actually written 2 Thessalonians, the "so-called gods" would indicate pagan gods that were worshiped in his day, not the temple in Jerusalem.
The person writing this probably would have been thinking of the temple of Zeus.

reply to post by RealTruthSeeker


You wrote:

["I'm not going to fall into your debate about Paul, which is something you keep trying to hammer people over the head with."]

That's peculiar. The question lies at the heart of the authenticity of christianity in general.

But maybe you hope it will go away, if you pretend it isn't there.

Quote: ["I can understand the prophecies because I have the "Holy Spirit" as my teacher, who guides us to all truth."]

As already mentioned before, possession of a 'holy spirit' isn't a christian monopoly.

reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

I can understand the prophecies because I have the "Holy Spirit" as my teacher, who guides us to all truth. But I guess your teacher is the "Holy Scholar"

What exact, specific knowledge of prophecy do you have that no one told you, which only came from God?

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

 

I can understand the prophecies because I have the "Holy Spirit" as my teacher, who guides us to all truth. But I guess your teacher is the "Holy Scholar"

What exact, specific knowledge of prophecy do you have that no one told you, which only came from God?

Nice try. I never said I was a prophet or that I have received a prophecy from God. I said I can 'understand' the prophecy because the "Holy Spirit" has given the ability to do so.

"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." Seems like alot of people are hard of hearing these days.

Originally posted by RealTruthSeeker

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

 

I can understand the prophecies because I have the "Holy Spirit" as my teacher, who guides us to all truth. But I guess your teacher is the "Holy Scholar"

What exact, specific knowledge of prophecy do you have that no one told you, which only came from God?

Nice try. I never said I was a prophet or that I have received a prophecy from God. I said I can 'understand' the prophecy because the "Holy Spirit" has given the ability to do so.

"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." Seems like alot of people are hard of hearing these days.]

Which means what? Sitting in church and hearing the preacher talk about antichrist, you feel excitement, especially when he gets to the part about the other people being punished?

Originally posted by jmdewey60

Originally posted by RealTruthSeeker

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

 

I can understand the prophecies because I have the "Holy Spirit" as my teacher, who guides us to all truth. But I guess your teacher is the "Holy Scholar"

What exact, specific knowledge of prophecy do you have that no one told you, which only came from God?

Nice try. I never said I was a prophet or that I have received a prophecy from God. I said I can 'understand' the prophecy because the "Holy Spirit" has given the ability to do so.

"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." Seems like alot of people are hard of hearing these days.]

Which means what? Sitting in church and hearing the preacher talk about antichrist, you feel excitement, especially when he gets to the part about the other people being punished?

I haven't been to church in years. Although I do enjoy fellowship with friends and family from time to time. I have all the tools I need right here, the Bible (both Hebrew and Greek) and the Holy Spirit, don't really need anything more than that.

reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

I haven't been to church in years. Although I do enjoy fellowship with friends and family from time to time. I have all the tools I need right here, the Bible (both Hebrew and Greek) and the Holy Spirit, don't really need anything more than that.

I remember stuff I heard in church fifty years ago.
I'm still trying to find out what you know about prophecy that you did not learn from someone else. Anything?
If not, then your criticism of me for reading books is invalid, since you got what you know about these things by similar means. It's just that I am more selective of what I read, which is the results of lifetimes of scholarly work in specialized fields of biblical research, not a bunch of wild speculation with no peer review.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

 

I haven't been to church in years. Although I do enjoy fellowship with friends and family from time to time. I have all the tools I need right here, the Bible (both Hebrew and Greek) and the Holy Spirit, don't really need anything more than that.

I remember stuff I heard in church fifty years ago.
I'm still trying to find out what you know about prophecy that you did not learn from someone else. Anything?
If not, then your criticism of me for reading books is invalid, since you got what you know about these things by similar means. It's just that I am more selective of what I read, which is the results of lifetimes of scholarly work in specialized fields of biblical research, not a bunch of wild speculation with no peer review.

It's not my place to say if you do or don't have the Holy Spirit within you, but from the way you speak I can only assume that you don't, otherwise these things would not be such a mystery to you.

“I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight." Luke 10:21

If babes can understand the prophecy then why can't you? Don't let your scholarly research blind you from the truth.

Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear the LORD and depart from evil. Proverbs 3:7

reply to post by RealTruthSeeker
Someone can tell me something, and I can understand the concept they are presenting, but that does not make it true.
Sometimes finding the truth means letting go of what you thought earlier was the truth, but was assumed to be so just based on the authority which you projected onto the person who told you that in the first place. This is where obstinacy is not a virtue. Self imposed ignorance is not a virtue either unless it is avoiding things obviously evil which you do not need your head full of, like most TV and a lot of movies.
So far I don't see you presenting any evidence showing how you are right and I am wrong. It just seems you have a bias and you resort to this mentality of "It must be true because I believe it and God would not allow me to believe something which was not true." Eve was probably shocked to find out she was wrong to believe the serpent.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

 

Someone can tell me something, and I can understand the concept they are presenting, but that does not make it true.
Sometimes finding the truth means letting go of what you thought earlier was the truth, but was assumed to be so just based on the authority which you projected onto the person who told you that in the first place. This is where obstinacy is not a virtue. Self imposed ignorance is not a virtue either unless it is avoiding things obviously evil which you do not need your head full of, like most TV and a lot of movies.
So far I don't see you presenting any evidence showing how you are right and I am wrong. It just seems you have a bias and you resort to this mentality of "It must be true because I believe it and God would not allow me to believe something which was not true." Eve was probably shocked to find out she was wrong to believe the serpent.

I see where your coming from, but let me ask you this. Is this a true statement from Christ or not (in your opinion)?

12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. John 16:12-14

I'm pretty sure that this is in reference to the "Holy Spirit". The Spirit never lies, if the Spirit is in you then you will know the truth when you see it, and you will know a lie when you see it, for these things can only be seen and understood by those who have the Spirit within them.

the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. John 14:17

reply to post by RealTruthSeeker
My opinion is he was talking to the people he was addressing, those he had prepared to accept the truth.
We have that today which shows up in the New Testament, which you quoted from.
As for scholarly books, I can tell you what I am doing, since I already committed to my purchases for this month.
These are books which are the results of long years of work by people who are scholars:

"The Greek of the Septuagint: A Supplemental Lexicon" by Gary Alan Chamberlain

"Septuaginta (Greek Edition)" this is the Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft, which is the "new critical edition of the Rahlf's version, which has its text based on Codices Vaticanus, Sinaiticus and Alexandrinus, with variants noted in the critical apparatus".

So it's basically just the Bible. The lexicon is in addition to another Septuagint lexicon that I got with money I had budgeted for last month's book purchases. The text will serve to correct any deficiencies in the Septuagint texts I have now, which are Kindle versions of questionable origin. I have enough of the theological type books right now to keep me busy, at least 'till next month. This current order comes up to a total of $76.33, so I will need to be doing some translation of the OT to get my investment back.