Did Nasa STEAL luna rocks from the moon?

Explanation: Since Nasa has been terrorizing old ladies to get back 'fake' moon rocks [search ats for it ok], well that put a bee in my bonnet and I am not a happy camper!

So to stick it back to them I am making the claim that ...

1] If they went there in the 1st place (claimed?) [and for the purpose of this thread we will ALL assume that they did go ok .. so please stay on topic]

AND...

2] They brought back luna material ... then they stole this material as NO ONE IS ALLOWED TO OWN/CONTROL THE MOON [including small peices] etc.

Here is why ... Who Really Owns the Moon? [.lunarregistry.com]

Furthermore, in its Space Law Frequently Asked Questions section, the United Nations spells this out in very plain language:

Q: Can any State claim a part of outer space as its own?
A: No. The Outer Space Treaty states that outer space, including the Moon and other celestial bodies is not subject to national appropriation by claim of sovereignty, by means of use or occupation, or by any other means. The Treaty establishes the exploration and use of outer space as the "province of all mankind." The Moon Agreement expands on these provisions by stating that neither the surface nor the subsurface of the Moon, nor any part thereof, or natural resources in place, shall become property of any State, international intergovernmental or non-governmental organization, national organization or non-governmental entity or of any natural person.

The legal definition of "natural person" is an "individual human being." The person we are referring to here as the "owner of the Moon" is a "natural person."

So by putting the letter of the law and Nasa stolen moon rocks together ... I come up with the answer that NASA are THIEVES!

Do you agree? Yes or No?

Personal Disclosure: If you agree ... how should we proceed with legally prosecuting Nasa?

I say guilty, and as punishment they should be forced to make an independendantly verifiable trip back to the moon to replace said rocks, dust, etc. Oh yes, after that they can close up shop.

The legal definition of "natural person" is an "individual human being." The person we are referring to here as the "owner of the Moon" is a "natural person."

So, if NASA is composed of "natural persons".... wouldn't your claim kinda mean they stole from themselves?

I mean, if I take a buck from my piggy bank, I'm not going to try and prosecute myself for doing so.

The american tax payer is really who paid for the rocks to be brought back, but someone has to be deemed responsible for the safe keeping of the rocks, why shouldn't it be the organization responsible for fetching them to begin with?

ETA

Also, I just wanted to point out, you've made the case for this thread to "assume" we have been to the moon. The wording in your OP in regards to us going there is clearly slanted, indicating that you do not actually believe we have been to the moon. If so.... why even bother with this claim? It's kind of like me deciding to take Santa Clause to court because I didn't get the toy I wanted last year for Christmas.

NASA shared lunar samples with thousands of labs and dozens of countries

educate yourself

reply to post by OmegaLogos


They didn't steal them as nobody claimed ownership over them. They did take them from their resting place and bring them here in their custody so I would think they had a better claim than anyone. I am also guessing that there is some stipulation somewhere that allows the taking of samples that would cover moon rocks. They are not claiming they own the moon.

reply to post by Lighterside


I agree, NASA should be responsible for the safe keeping of moonrocks but your analogy is a little off.
If you take money out of your penny bank then that is to assume you own the bank and the money that resides inside. NASA doesn't own the moon, so therefore it would be more like NASA coming into your house and taking the money out of YOUR penny bank.

reply to post by OmegaLogos


No they did not. They didn't stake a claim and say that part of the moon that they took the rocks off is theirs. They only took rocks. I don't however agree with them taking moon rocks from individuals though. I took a conch shell from the caribbean back to Canada, customs didn't care why should we care about rocks from the moon?

From what I understand, NASA sent many samples of Moon rocks to many places. So I don't know if they are claiming whole ownership of the old lady's rock. I'll have to check up on that. What interested me, though, is this statement from your NASA quote:

nor the subsurface of the Moon

It could be nothing at all, but I found that interesting to say the least!

reply to post by OmegaLogos


This is an outrageous stretch, and has no legal basis based on the actual citations used in the Opening Post.

(And, by this same weak *logic*, the former Soviet Union must also be considered "guilty" of "theft"....check you history).

Though, in future this raises many questions as to how raw materials extraction, such as mining activities, will be considered. For one day, private enterprises will endeavor to perform such tasks, as a potential profit venture.

The legal beagles will be enjoying the haggling over *rights*, and such, for many decades, little doubt. Everyone will want to get in on the act, and get their cuts.

Any corporate lawyers in the audience? Loopholes in some sort of International consortium business construct, to circumvent?

"Share the risk, share the rewards......." (?)

LOL! This 'logic' train reminds me of "The Hitchhiker's Guide".

Bethselamin is a fabulously beautiful planet which attracts billions of tourists each year. Unsurprisingly, erosion is a serious concern of the local authorities. Their solution is to calculate the net imbalance between the amount of matter eaten and the amount subsequently excreted by each visitor, and remove the weight difference through amputative surgery. Thus it is vitally important to get a receipt after every trip to the lavatory while on the planet.

Source.

Originally posted by Arekoteya
reply to post by Lighterside

 

...your analogy is a little off. If you take money out of your penny bank then that is to assume you own the bank and the money that resides inside. NASA doesn't own the moon, so therefore it would be more like NASA coming into your house and taking the money out of YOUR penny bank.

The OP made the argument that "natural persons" own the moon. I made the argument that NASA is comprised of "natural persons". The analogy I made is a reference to stealing from yourself. I would think it's a relevant analogy to the definition of ownership of the moon presented by the OP.

I mean c'mon, we already have corporations defined as being people, do we really need to push them to define government agencies the same way?

Sorry, while I think that it's is a great and wonderful thing that we went to the moon, I have NEVER thought we should allow our government a monopoly over it. Let the old lady sell moon rocks.

Originally posted by CynicalDrivel
Sorry, while I think that it's is a great and wonderful thing that we went to the moon, I have NEVER thought we should allow our government a monopoly over it. Let the old lady sell moon rocks.

Can you post any evidence of the U.S. forbidding anyone from going to the moon? If you buy a car, should everyone allow you monopoly over that car?

reply to post by OmegaLogos



I say The Outer Space Treaty is BUNK and Not Enforceable because.. The people who wrote and signed it themselves - Do Not Own The Moon or Space, so how can they seek to put controls on it?

If I make me a rocket ship in my backyard and fly up there, you darn better bet I'm gonna put my flag on the Moon and claim me a little space, just a thousand square miles is all and I dare em to to come up with legal paper work that says they have such a claim to stop me.

If they want to say " For Ourselves, we agree not to fight each other over a section of space or the Moon as to keep things with us civil", that's just fine, but don't apply that to Me, I didn't sign the darn thing, nor was it even offered to me to sign. This goes for large space faring companies too that may make it to the Moon pretty soon.

If NASA signed it, then they are moon rock thieves, if they didn't, then it was theirs for the taking.

reply to post by OmegaLogos


If NASA is the agency that brought the moon rocks back, then how did she and the others get a hold of thwm?

Also, the treaty you referenced only entails national ownership, not individual ownership of rocks from there.

reply to post by LightSpeedDriver


Explanation: Starred!

Personal Disclosure: OL fully agree's with your posted comments on this issue!

P.S. One of the best replies I have ever gotten to anything I have posted!

reply to post by Lighterside


Explanation: Uhmmm?

So, if NASA is composed of "natural persons".... wouldn't your claim kinda mean they stole from themselves?

I mean, if I take a buck from my piggy bank, I'm not going to try and prosecute myself for doing so.

The american tax payer is really who paid for the rocks to be brought back, but someone has to be deemed responsible for the safe keeping of the rocks, why shouldn't it be the organization responsible for fetching them to begin with?

NO! According to the law ... and I wouldn't of linked it otherwise ok [and yes it is RATIFIED by Nasa] ...

Furthermore, in its Space Law Frequently Asked Questions section, the United Nations spells this out in very plain language:

Q: Can any State claim a part of outer space as its own? [ Please dont confuse this question with *** see below. ]
A: No. The Outer Space Treaty states that outer space, including the Moon and other celestial bodies is not subject to national appropriation by claim of sovereignty, by means of use or occupation, or by any other means. The Treaty establishes the exploration and use of outer space as the "province of all mankind." The Moon Agreement expands on these provisions by stating that neither the surface nor the subsurface of the Moon, nor any part thereof, or natural resources in place, shall become property of any State, international intergovernmental or non-governmental organization, national organization or non-governmental entity or of any natural person. [ *** this answer which gives more information than the original question required! ]

The legal definition of "natural person" is an "individual human being." The person we are referring to here as the "owner of the Moon" is a "natural person."

.. it clearly covers EVERYBODY and therefor nobody owns it and I did state that in the OP ...

2] They brought back luna material ... then they stole this material as NO ONE IS ALLOWED TO OWN/CONTROL THE MOON [including small peices] etc.

Personal Disclosure: Reality hits you hard bro!

reply to post by syrinx high priest


Explanation: It wasn't theirs to share in the 1st place and makes those who were given any rocks recievers of stolen goods and therefor complicit in the crime ... making it a WORLD WIDE CONSPIRACY!

Personal Disclosure: Thanks for pointing the way deeper down the rabbit hole! [star for you! ]

reply to post by shug7272


Explanation: Uhmmm?

I am also guessing that there is some stipulation somewhere that allows the taking of samples that would cover moon rocks.

Please provide such stipulation because ...

The Outer Space Treaty states that outer space, including the Moon and other celestial bodies is not subject to national appropriation by claim of sovereignty,by means of use or occupation, or by any other means.

... is the actual evidence to back up MY CLAIM!

Personal Disclosure: Thieves have custody of stolen goods ... that doesn'y make the goods not stolen or the legal possesions of the thief!

Claiming they have been to the moon and claiming they own the moon are two different things and I was posting about the claim of whether they have been to the moon [which is a bone of contention on ATS] and not posting about that they have claimed the moon.

If they did go there, then they did brings these luna rocks back and I am just focusing on the letter of the law legalities surrounding that.

reply to post by superman2012


Explanation: As above so below!

Thieves have custody of stolen goods ... that doesn'y make the goods not stolen or the legal possesions of the thief!

Claiming they have been to the moon and claiming they own the moon are two different things and I was posting about the claim of whether they have been to the moon [which is a bone of contention on ATS] and not posting about that they have claimed the moon.

If they did go there, then they did brings these luna rocks back and I am just focusing on the letter of the law legalities surrounding that.

Personal Disclosure: I gave you a star for this and this alone ...

I don't however agree with them taking moon rocks from individuals though.