Will The Real Christians Please Stand UP.

Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

 

Dear RealTruthSeeker,

You've enticed bogomil to respond, that in itself is a stroke of good fortune. If you're looking for logical analysis, rigorous thinking, impervious honesty, and someone willing to entertain the value of mysticism, he's your man. I can't say enough for him.

I haven't seen in him any desire to be a poet or a spiritual director, perhaps he's hiding those gifts. But don't discount him. I've had the chance to correspond with him and its been very fruitful.

But as for my personal beliefs, I do believe that Jesus is the Son of the Eternal God. I believe in the Trinity as traditionally described. I believe that the Bible has many purposes; history, poetry, music, theology and prophecy. I believe that the New Testament gives practical advice as well as spiritual uplift, and opens the door to greater and greater understanding, somehow providing ever new truths by ancient words.

I believe that the soul of each individual will live forever and is therefore of more worth than systems, cultures, or civilizations which will die eventually. It is my duty to avoiding damaging other's souls and to aid them if I can, and to protect my own. I also believe in both the Beatific and Horrific Visions.

I most certainly do not believe that I am a real Christian, that is a goal for me, and God only knows whether I am close to that goal.

It may be that I have failed to answer your question to your satisfaction. That is undoubtedly my failing of skill, not desire.

With respect,
Charles1952

You have answered the thread just nicely. My only intention with this thread is to have fellowship with other believers on the forum. I have no desire to tear down anyone's faith. None of us is perfect in Christ and never will be as long as we are in the flesh. We all have our struggles with the walk, but it doesn't mean that our faith in Him is not genuine.

You may not believe that you are a true Christian, but if you have confessed with your mouth that Jesus is the Son of God then you are a Real Christian.

Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

Dear jmdewey60,

Thanks for responding, but I must not have made myself clear. What I was wondering was, what is the evidence for your belief that Bible scholars overwhelmingly view Colossians as false (or illegitimate, or whatever word you used)?

With respect,
Charles1952

FORGERY! That's the word I used.
There are seven books claiming to have been written by Paul that are accepted by practically all Bible scholars as actually having been written by Paul. Colossians is not among those seven.

However, as with several epistles attributed to Paul, critical scholarship disputes this claim.

Wikipedia

reply to post by RealTruthSeeker


I am standin right here with you! I'm gonna have to star and flag later when I get home cause I'm on my phone so my ability is limited. Just wanted to say I'm here and Jesus is the Only way!

Originally posted by britelite1971
reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

 

I am standin right here with you! I'm gonna have to star and flag later when I get home cause I'm on my phone so my ability is limited. Just wanted to say I'm here and Jesus is the Only way!

The only way for whom? You or everybody?

Christians often 'forget' such details when a missionary zeal gets the upper hand.

Originally posted by britelite1971
reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

 

I am standin right here with you! I'm gonna have to star and flag later when I get home cause I'm on my phone so my ability is limited. Just wanted to say I'm here and Jesus is the Only way!

Thanks my friend, may your journey home be blessed.

Dear jmdewey,

Thanks for setting me straight, I'm sorry I got it wrong.

I also appreciated the source that you sent along for me to check, so I did.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

FORGERY! That's the word I used.
There are seven books claiming to have been written by Paul that are accpted ny practically all Bible scholars as actually having been written by Paul. Colossians is not among those seven.

But I reach a different conclusion from that source than you did.

Scholars have increasingly questioned Paul's authorship and attributed the letter to an early follower instead.[1] The authenticity of the letter, however, has been defended with equal strength.[1]

Here, at least, it doesn't seem like there is any "practically all" to be found.

But that's the situation now, what was it in the past?

The letter's author claims to be Paul, but authorship began to be authoritatively questioned during the 19th century.

The earliest evidence for Pauline authorship, aside from the letter itself ... is from the mid to late 2d cent. (Marcionite canon; Irenaeus, Adv. Haer. 3.14.1; Muratorian canon). This traditional view stood [usually] unquestioned until 1838, when E. T. Mayerhoff denied the authenticity of this letter, claiming that it was full of non-Pauline ideas and dependent on the letter of Ephesians. Thereafter others have found additional arguments against Pauline authorship." New Jerome Biblical Commentary

So, for 1700 years Paul's authorship of the letter was based on evidence, and in the last 170 an argument has started about who was the author? That's all very interesting, but it's hardly proof of forgery.

But even if it wasn't written by Paul, so what? Does that mean it wasn't dictated by Paul, or that it is in error?

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by RealTruthSeeker


I believe Jesus is the only son of God. I believe He is the only way to heaven. I believe He died for my sins. I am a follower of Jesus Christ.

The word christian is thrown around a lot people will say they are christian because they go to church and they try to do good. A true follower of Christ believes in Jesus and his death as a final payment for our sins and has received the Holy Spirit. There is nothing we can 'do' to obtain salvation, but only through Jesus's sacrifice.

-I WILL CARRY YOUR NAME FOR ALL OF MY DAYS, JESUS YOUR NAME FOREVER-

I'm standing with you. Remember that unless the Holy Spirit prepares a person to be receptive, our words will fall on rocky ground, so don't expect a lot of positive response here. We know that the time is short, and we wish more would take the warnings seriously, but that is something we have very little control over in a world that is quickly coming under the total control of the Antichrist. He will be coming onto the world's stage shortly, and then for a short period of time he will be worshiped. We will be gone though, thank God.

I would think that ATS would have a community that wasn't so dull minded into being brainwashed into religion... i don't understand the amount of religious rants and BS that's posted.

Welcome to the discussion, but you did make rather a bull-in-the-china-shop entrance.

Originally posted by dankety
I would think that ATS would have a community that wasn't so dull minded into being brainwashed into religion... i don't understand the amount of religious rants and BS that's posted.

Do you have a suggestion for un-brainwashing (would that be brain-dirtying)?

I think I can explain the amount easily enough. Religion is very important to many people. Not surprising people would write about it, is it?

Would you care to present your argument for claiming there is BS here?

Looking forward to talking with you.

reply to post by bogomil


Everybody.

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Originally posted by britelite1971
reply to post by bogomil

 

Everybody.

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

I take it, that you know the difference between 'faith' and 'facts', at least in its simplistic, daily-use version (without philosophical implications). If not I'll help you out.

So can you please give me some validation for your obvious assumption of 'objectivity' in your statement including 'everybody' to be subjects to your religious postulates.

reply to post by charles1952
You do get a different bit that you want to isolate from the Wikipedia article but here is the part I quoted from it.

However, as with several epistles attributed to Paul, critical scholarship disputes this claim.

Take a look at this statement and tell me what you think it means.
To me, it means: Taken as a whole, the entity, 'critical scholarship', does not accept it.
You were not asking for proof of forgery, you were asking for proof most, or almost all, biblical scholars do not accept Colossians as being written by Paul.
The fact that it was supported by people in the employ of religious institutions in the past does not negate this statement I quoted.

reply to post by freedish

I believe He died for my sins.

You do believe that literally, right?
As in, Jesus says to your sins, 'Hello, I am here to save you'.
Since our sins are saved, then so are we, just by logic, right?

A true follower of Christ believes in Jesus and his death as a final payment for our sins and has received the Holy Spirit. There is nothing we can 'do' to obtain salvation, but only through Jesus's sacrifice.

You don't see these two statements as being contradictory?
statement 1) A true follower of Christ believes in Jesus and his death as a final payment for our sins and has received the Holy Spirit.
statement 2) There is nothing we can 'do' to obtain salvation, but only through Jesus's sacrifice.

. . .his death as a final payment for our sins. . .

Since the OP was all about Bible verses, do you have one for that?

reply to post by bogomil

Dear bogomil,

I started wondering about the path I took to belief. I know it wouldn't be yours, partially because of individuality, but also because you are probably more rigorous than I am.

Let me try for faux folksy (I like the sound of that).

Settin' 'round the ol' campfire, strummin' a tune, I asked Slim Sam (I've got to fight this alliteration bug) what he figured it was all about. "What's what all about?" He asked as he spit out his chaw. "Dunno," I admitted. "Just them stars and tumbleweed and all them cattle. How come we got'em, where'd they come from, what're we s'posed to be doin?"

Slim Sam told me I was loco."Yo're loco," he said. "How'm I s'posed to know stuff like that there?"
"Who'd ya figure would know stuff like that?" I asked, with unabated curiosity. "Yo're serious? Waalll, I reckon those smart fellas in the big city might have an inklin' "

So I thanked Slim Sam and headed off to the big city.

That's where I found Augustine and Aquinas and Francis and Chesterton and Ignatius and Luke and a bunch of others.

Yes, I understand fully that an appeal to authority is one of the weakest logical arguments, still it is an argument, and in a discussion with so few absolutes (logically), I'll take what I can get.

As for what happened after that, that's a story I don't know how to tell as well as it should be told.

With respect,
Charles1952

Let's not forget this one either...


James 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Dear jmdewey60,

Thank you very much for your response. I appreciate that you're taking the time to clear up what might be a miscommunication on my part.

I take "dispute" to mean "argument." For example, "people dispute the existence of God." To me, that just means someone is arguing about it or disagreeing with it. I don't take it to mean "almost all of the people have rejected God."

You're absolutely right, There is an argument going on over whether Paul wrote the epistle or not. I'm just not sure it has been decided finally yet.

And even it it turns out to be not Pauline, I don't think that affects its value or place in scriptures.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by jmdewey60

So, can you make a compilation of verses from those four indisputably Pauline writings that says the same thing as what you quoted from that highly questionable (and almost universally rejected by Bible scholars) Book of Colossians?

Romans, Galatians and Corinthians are not so much concerned with creation. Nevertheless, we have a way of rightly dividing truth with the other books.

In Ancient Hebrew, YHVH, Yod, Hey, Vav, Hey is literally translated by the pictographs that Abraham would have used as the original Hebrew language originating with the early phoenician language. LINK

Yod is a tent peg. Hey means behold a great work. Vav is the hand. Literally translated, "Behold the hand, behold the nail." LINK

Rightly dividing truth, as Paul would have learned from Hillel, is a matter of connecting context and truths between texts. All of what is in the NT is in agreement with the OT. "An analogy is made between two separate texts on the basis of a similar phrase, word or root – i.e., where the same words are applied to two separate cases, it follows that the same considerations apply to both." Seven Rules

Psalm 139:13
For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb.

Psalm 148:5
Let them praise the name of the LORD, for at his command they were created,

Isaiah 40:26
Lift up your eyes and look to the heavens: Who created all these? He who brings out the starry host one by one and calls forth each of them by name. Because of his great power and mighty strength, not one of them is missing.

Isaiah 41:20
so that people may see and know, may consider and understand, that the hand of the LORD has done this, that the Holy One of Israel has created it.

An important point here is that the one who created is also the redeemer

Isaiah 43:1
[ Israel’s Only Savior ] But now, this is what the LORD says— he who created you, Jacob, he who formed you, Israel: “Do not fear, for I have redeemed you; I have summoned you by name; you are mine.

Isaiah 43:7
everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made.”

Isaiah 45:8
“You heavens above, rain down my righteousness; let the clouds shower it down. Let the earth open wide, let salvation spring up, let righteousness flourish with it; I, the LORD, have created it.

Isaiah 45:12
It is I who made the earth and created mankind on it. My own hands stretched out the heavens; I marshaled their starry hosts.

Isaiah 45:18
For this is what the LORD says— he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited— he says: “I am the LORD, and there is no other.

Isaiah 48:7
They are created now, and not long ago; you have not heard of them before today. So you cannot say, ‘Yes, I knew of them.’

Romans 1:25
They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

And quoting things out of the bible make me more credible!! bahhhhhhh!!