You deserve what?

reply to post by haarvik

The only problem is that here wont be any change until rest of the world wakes up.
And no, you don't have the opportunity to go live in wilderness, as they even made laws against building your own shelter or even haunting your own food without going through proper channels which basically means you need money and a slave job to do.

Here in Norway it has gotten so far that you have to pretty much ask the state for permission to make a fireplace to cook your own food, which makes living in wilderness for extended periods of time impossible.

There is currently no way to get around state in most western countries.

They have also proposed to ban cash, which will make you even dependent on a bank account and a debit card.

Right now the only option we have is to try to wake people up, which is sadly a very slow process.
I by the way already live as minimalistic as possible with exception of the luxury called the internet.

Originally posted by haarvik
reply to post by tothetenthpower

 

No, they are not. If it were, you would be born with it. It would be written down for you to have. You are only guaranteed the opportunity to obtain them. Big difference. Being human does not give us any more special rights than any animal. just because we can reason does not automatically guarantee us anything.

The problem is that we have LESS rights than animals.
At least animals are for most part truly free with exception of those we breed for food, pets or lab animals.
Us humans cant even take a piss in nature without being fined 1000 bucks or put in jail.

reply to post by haarvik

You deserve what?

The 'right' to exist ... and nothing more, imo.

How ... and to what extent, level or degree one does so is entirely up to the individual ...Your family, Your friends and Those you've surrounded, acquainted your self with and/or befriended along the way.

I've said it time and again ...

'WE', as a people ... as a society ... are but nothing more than a mere reflection, a mirror image of that which WE so actively desire and embrace, opt into ...yet all to often vocally 'protest against' & 'complain about' all the while. ??


In essence ... we've sought, desired, bought into and paid for the very same things(s) we vocally detest, rile against and demonize.

People standing in lines for days on end looking to get the 'first' newly-released nex gen I-Phone.

... all the while ruffling their feathers over a given tech's ability to GPS their location and the like.

... as they hit SEND on that last TXT reply.

??

makes not a trinker's damn bit of sense.

Crying to the heavens over that which you and fellow purchasers/supporters desired and bought into.

self-perceived, yet, seemingly and unknowingly 'victims' of our own creations, devices and Demise, IMO

yeah ... it's a strange world we live in.

people call out and complain about the same things that their wallets support and sustain .. Odd. That.

Good thing your mother didn't have this mentality for the first year or so of your life, because you would be dead. Would you also agree that you are not born with the "right" to have parents who will raise you to an age where you can fend for yourself?
I think this question is appropriate, seeing how you are comparing a breathlessly complex society to a wolf pack.

reply to post by SearchLightsInc


how did those people having all those things affect you, what did they take from you, my guess is nothing, people who have more than i do, guess what, they just might have worked harder than i did, or probably invested better, what is wrong with that?

I would agree with you except that we are no longer allowed to fend for ourselves. We are born into a world in which every spec of land is "owned". You are forced to participate in the system upon birth. See how fast they take your kid from you when they find out you are raising him in the woods. Not to mention, some guy with a shotgun will be chasing you and yelling at you to get off his land. Go walking down the street without "proper identification" and get harassed by cops. Try to hunt some food and get in trouble for not having a license to do so. Yep, you're right. It's our choice.

And even if you buy land, you still have to pay taxes on it every year or they will take it. Where will that money come from. They have the people locked into a system by force. Yes, some people willingly subscribe to it, but I don't.

reply to post by haarvik


Where, in your OP, is the expectation that humans care for each other?

You are, indeed, an animal if it is all about oneself. I choose to be a human-- above the animals. Even dogs take care of their pack. Humans do that and more. If that is an alien concept to you, then come up higher and join us.

P.S., I want a pony. I may even deserve a pony.

It sounds like OP is advocating jungle law or survival of the fittest.Not too many people really want to live by that law when push comes to shove.Personally I'm OK with it, but if you are the kind of person who calls the cops when you are attacked, I don't think it's for you. Right and wrong go out the window.

If I kill and eat your children, there is nothing wrong with that. I was hungry and you are not entitled to any mercy from me.In fact, if your kids are keeping me awake at night I can shoot them and you.I'm not entitled to sleep, but I'll sleep if I want to and I am capable of eliminating you and your noisy offspring.Nobody is entitled to judge me or punish me though I'd be very surprised if they didn't.

A civilised society is predicated on understanding, tolerance,compromise and usually the establishment of certain commonly accepted entitlements as well as roles and responsibility.What you propose is the opposite, an anti social and self serving existence that can't rightfully be called civilised.

A lot of you completely miss the point of my OP. It isn't about lawlessness or anything like that. It is about expecting others to hand you something you did not work for nor earn. There are no guarantees in life, except that you get to try. Some people succeed, some people fail. Some are just unlucky, some are self induced. It is not societies responsibility to provide anything for you. Our country has allowed for certain things in the event that things have gone terribly wrong so you are not left out in the cold, but it is supposed to be temporary. Even these are not guaranteed. You must qualify for them. The system may be broken, but it is not a guaranteed thing.

Now, having said all of that, I do not condone what the big banks and WS have done. IMO they do nothing to contribute to society. They make an income from betting on others good/bad fortune. Most of the time they get paid whether others win or lose, such as a broker. But our system has allowed them to do what they do, so they do it. Ill gotten gain or not, it is theirs and not anything you are entitled to. You did not learn the job they did, so in no way can you lay claim to what they have earned, nor do they owe anything to you for it. It is barbaric, but it is how our system works.

If you don't like the way it works then do something about it. Quit arguing over semantics and agree to stop it. It doesn't matter your reason, it matters what the end result is. I think everyone can agree the system is broken, right? So we must take steps to fix the things that are broken, but they must be done one at a time. OWS does nothing more than give fuel to the MSM and politicians who figure out how to exploit it for their gain. They know we are divided, and they will figure out how to land in that gap so the majority will empathize with them. Stop the entitlement mentality and band together to change things. If we were as one and not divided, we would have the power to level the proverbial playing field. Then, at that moment, we would have the power to say how we want things to run, and not the way it is now. Until we unite for a common goal we will never, NEVER regain control.

Depends on the function of government. If a government's job is to protect freedom, material inequality is inevitable. If a government's job is welfare then it damn well better censor the media, ban alcohol and drugs, and protect the unborn. After all, if we are our brother's keeper, we must take care of people.

Originally posted by haarvik
A lot of you completely miss the point of my OP. It isn't about lawlessness or anything like that. It is about expecting others to hand you something you did not work for nor earn.

I am probably one of the "a lot of you."

But you miss my point, too.

I am not agreeing with the vague OSW agenda-- we will have to wait for its masked leadership to declare itself before anyone knows specifics.

BUT!

In our current society, many have fallen from economic grace to find that no one-- not friends, not family, not neighbors, not co-workers-- NO ONE lends a hand.

People think, "It is the family's responsibility."

Yeah, in this society? Really? Brother John has two daughters he is barely going the get into college-- he is not helping you. Sister Mary has that new car to pay for, and her husband doesn't like you anyway. Mom and Dad are on retirement and have nothing to share.

People think, "Government welfare takes care of them."

Nope. You are thirty five, got fired from your job for a policy violation-- not taking required breaks (because the company was facing layoffs, but the "policy violation" meant they didn't have to pay your unemployment). You do not get a penny of assistance.

The deal is... everyone thinks it is someone else's responsibility to take care of those in need, and so NO ONE takes care of them in our self-centered, dog-eat-dog society.

I am saying it is everyone's responsibility to address a need of another when known.

And until our society admits that to itself-- we require government to act. Your OP is not helping.

reply to post by haarvik


What about people who did not earn what they have.What if they subjugated their neighbour to get to their advantageous position. Behind most shimmering fortunes lie some very dirty secrets.Many hard working people who have tough lives are aware of this and fee;l they should be getting more for their backbreaking effort and that the a lot of wealthy people deserve far less, because much of their gains were ill gotten.The poor man here is merely trying to have a civilised society. The rich man is trying to play by jungle laws.Live by the sword and the chances are you'll die by it.

This idea of making your own luck is BS. If I obtain your details and commit fraud in your name, are you going to accept blame? Is it really my fault that I robbed you?Of course it is.Is it your fault? No.

I think a lot of people don't expect the wealth of the rich to be divided amongst them. Most people want a fair chance. However their path to simple success is obscured by the greed and manipulation of the wealthy.That is a fact and there are concrete examples of it all around us.Enron is just one example.There are literally thousands more.
People are kept down. Why do you think there is a class system? We are not all equal.It is not an even playing surface. The dice is loaded. The game is rigged. Such inequality is the enemy of civilisation.

reply to post by blah yada


If this is truly what you believe, then you have been programmed correctly.

Have people taken advantage of the system? Sure. So have a lot of welfare recipients. Yet when you harp on that no one wants to hear it. One last time:

ONLY YOU CAN MAKE THINGS CHANGE!

OWS, and all the other movements will not change a thing. Use your wallet and let them know you mean business!

ONLY YOU CAN MAKE THINGS CHANGE!

....so this only applies to things that YOU want to change using the method YOU prefer to meet the objectives that YOU would like to see?

P.S. Vote for Ron Paul! He can make the change for you!

reply to post by mooseinhisglory


No, this means you have to find what works for you and make things change. What I am presenting is something so easy anyone can do it and it does not require a mass of people to show their asses.

Originally posted by lonexxwolf
reply to post by SearchLightsInc

 

how did those people having all those things affect you, what did they take from you, my guess is nothing, people who have more than i do, guess what, they just might have worked harder than i did, or probably invested better, what is wrong with that?

Lololol, i think you miss my point completely and also the whole "They worked harder then me therefore..." is a bunch of propagated BS in order to keep the "american dream" alive. Though in all respect my friend, if you want to believe that if *you* work a little bit harder, *you* to could make it into the big time, your more then welcome to spend the rest of your life jumping through hoops and pick-locking doors.
The fact that someone owns 7 mansions, a yacht 100 cars and whatever i may have listed does not effect me directly. Though keep in mind, if they have indeed worked from the bottom up then they've more then likely made there money off the hard work of someone else. For example, opening a factory in Taiwan, having there workers work 14hr shifts and paying them JUST ENOUGH to stay warm and and eat basic food. The owner of this factory though lives in a ridiculous amount of luxury because he "Worked hard" When in actual fact, all he did was abuse the financial situation of people born into poverty - Poverty that exists in the first place BECAUSE of how wealth is shared.

Now, i don't hate or envy the wealthy, i just feel that wealth should be shared out a lot more evenly for the simple reasons consisting of:
1) To state that the top 1% work twice as hard as the bottom 99% and therefore deserve there earnings is a biased and ignorant analysis of the wage discrepancy not only on a national scale but also on the global scale to. You advocate that you work hard and receive a better income, yet no one on this entire site has ever been able to give me a proper reason why a factory worker working 72hrs a week earns just enough to get by while someone else earns there annual wage in a day/hour - Its bizzare to me. Now yes, you can argue that "skill" comes into it and to a certain point it does. However, in the 21st century poverty, for the simple reason of technological advancement in ALL areas of live, should be null and void. It should be a past issue and yet, millions still die everyday from things that could so easily be corrected. Why? Because of how wealth is distributed.
2) No matter what nationality, colour of your skin, religious beliefs or your favourite jacket potato topping, all human beings are apart of the same race. We are animals effectively, but we are advanced on the evolutionary side of things. Therefore, in the interest of future advancement, we should effectively help our neighbours. Stop trying to own resources or amass huge quantities of wealth in order to further our own personal agenda and instead, put our heads together and put the world to rights. Food, shelter, clothing, warmth, clean water. A job that pays by how hard you work not what someone else can take you for. If we gave every child on the earth right now a free education (not a basic one consisting of reading, writing and arithmatic) Could you imagine how much we could advance in the next 50 years because of more boffins churning out idea's and challenging the old ones?

All im saying, is that that we could do SO MUCH MORE, if we just spread the wealth more effectively.

reply to post by haarvik


I have found what works for me. Through my music over the years I have helped spread a revolutionary, DIY attitude to all who would listen, and I have seen people who literally grew up listening to my words develope to become extremely intelligent, college-going, strong-minded young people.
Your premise is that even the things for which OWS are "fighting" (I'm skeptical too) for are unjustified. If they actually won some of their demands, say a deferment on student loan interest, would you whine and complain about the Socialist States of Amerika or would you applaud them for speaking their minds and getting what they wanted without a political leader?
I, for one, would applaud them. I see no difference in this type of an action compared to a big bank lobbying for a tax holiday.

reply to post by mooseinhisglory


A deferment is one thing, getting rid of it altogether is another.

People over the last 30 years have gone from being responsible for their actions to blaming everything on someone else. It wasn't their fault. They were beat as a child, kids picked on them in school, the list goes on. When you become an adult, you make the choices and no one else. You cannot blame someone else for your choices.

Now to be fair, there are people in this world who are just not equipped to be at the top. My brother is one example. He aspires to be, he has been close to it with me at the helm, but he could never do it himself. He's just not wired that way. This is why we have blue/white collar jobs. I'm not belittling blue collar at all. My dad retired from General Motors. But he did work for what he has. No one handed him anything.

reply to post by haarvik


So if people aren't "equipped" to be at the top they should be satisfied with minimum wages their whole life or just bend over and take it if their 401k or pension was wiped out by irresponsible investment strategies? With wealth comes power, and with power comes influence, which demand utmost responsibility. It seems to me that this country's economy wasn't crippled because of lazy people who didn't want to work. It seems to me that those who have the most money, power, and influence have been acting irresponsibly for 30 years.

The gap between the rich and the poor grew even more this last year. There are fewer job openings now then there were at the height of the recession. Banks are not making funds available for small businesses to grow while the Fed hands out 16 trillion in secret bailouts to major financial institutions around the world.

Screw shared profits. How about shared sacrifice?

Originally posted by juleol

Originally posted by haarvik
reply to post by tothetenthpower

 

No, they are not. If it were, you would be born with it. It would be written down for you to have. You are only guaranteed the opportunity to obtain them. Big difference. Being human does not give us any more special rights than any animal. just because we can reason does not automatically guarantee us anything.

The problem is that we have LESS rights than animals.
At least animals are for most part truly free with exception of those we breed for food, pets or lab animals.
Us humans cant even take a piss in nature without being fined 1000 bucks or put in jail.

i know what you mean, i was watching the news the other day and they were going on about beating horses with whips in horse racing, there does not seem to be the same concern when people are beaten with batons at protests, just for being there.