We're in so much trouble...

Truly insignificant.

reply to post by Pgrantham

I don’t know about you being a conspiracy theorist, but there certainly were a few paranoid elements in that post. I am not trying to trap you – you’re doing quite a good job of trapping yourself. I am merely trying to establish what exactly you mean, and whether or not your arguments are consistent.

Western values and lifestyles? Fine. Can you define them, and show how they differ from the values and lifestyles of consumer capitalism?

Do these values and lifestyles emerge spontaneously as unplanned trends in the behaviour of individuals in society, or is someone imposing them from above? If these trends are not spontaneous, they have to be planned and set in action by someone. Are they or aren’t they, and if they are, who is the someone? This is the critical question you keep dodging. Answer it now, fair and square, or withdraw your objection to my thesis and call it a day. Because without it, your objection hasn’t a leg to stand on.

And finally, you have yet to discredit – or even address – my point about resources never being adequate because of status competition. Which was, actually, the central element of my argument.

Originally posted by Astyanax
reply to post by Pgrantham

 

I don’t know about you being a conspiracy theorist, but there certainly were a few paranoid elements in that post. I am not trying to trap you – you’re doing quite a good job of trapping yourself. I am merely trying to establish what exactly you mean, and whether or not your arguments are consistent.

Western values and lifestyles? Fine. Can you define them, and show how they differ from the values and lifestyles of consumer capitalism?

Do these values and lifestyles emerge spontaneously as unplanned trends in the behaviour of individuals in society, or is someone imposing them from above? If these trends are not spontaneous, they have to be planned and set in action by someone. Are they or aren’t they, and if they are, who is the someone? This is the critical question you keep dodging. Answer it now, fair and square, or withdraw your objection to my thesis and call it a day. Because without it, your objection hasn’t a leg to stand on.

And finally, you have yet to discredit – or even address – my point about resources never being adequate because of status competition. Which was, actually, the central element of my argument.

edit on 24/10/11 by Astyanax because: it must be filled out.

I have entertained your thoughts and questions, even as they still have nothing to do with my infallible stance that resources are indeed abundant.

It's great, I tried to incorporate a sense of humor in my last post, and yet you still try to paint me as a paranoid conspiracy theorist. I find that to be darling. I find it quite funny that you are still continuing to try and trap me, to MAKE ME GIVE YOU A NAME as if it were one person. Whoa, buddy, there YOU go again setting off the paranoia alarms.

If I wanted to continue this now-ridiculous conversation then I would never have called you out. I would have continued to play on your paranoia for #s and giggles. Go look in a mirror, friend. I have been completely aware since your first response to me that your ONLY way of winning this argument is to paint me as a conspiracy nut. It is quite ironic that you have only exposed yourself as a "closeted" conspiracy theorist. I don't think you are a nut, no need for insult.

YOU have surmised that it was a "plan and set in motion by someone." YOU give me a name. YOU have brought up a "population program." YOU have used the "Powers That Be" reference. YOU have brought up "hidden manipulators." YOU are the paranoid one.

Knock, Knock?

Well, I will try to continue the convo. You say I haven't responded to your "point about resources never being adequate because of status competition." Oh, I have. My stance and explanation of why resources are now abundant completely negates your argument -- and it's evident because:
a. You still haven't responded to it.
b. You have diverted your focus away to such frivolous things as "what are Western values"
c. You have pulled your last card out (in your first response) to try and expose me as a conspiracy nut.

So, now that I have played your little game better than yourself, respond to this from my last post, and tell me why you think we still don't have enough resources for everyone, because, honestly, I am curious to learn more about the psychology behind people with your opinion, and why they are unable to reason that resources are indeed abundant.

So, onto my argument that resources are abundant: There was a time not long ago, when resources were, just as you say, limited, but only to the rational proximity of the consumer. This was due to 3 things: lack of transportation, lack of instantaneous communication, and lack of free information (to increase resourcefulness). We now live in a world with all three and even more. If I need to expand on these more, I can, but I think you are smart enough to factor in the Internet. We no longer need oil to fuel our cars. We no longer need the Post Office (although I would like for it to continue). And we no longer need corn and wheat when we have the capability to mass produce the healthiest foods from around the world. These are not to be simply dismissed as "idealist beliefs."

I'm back from vacation, I'm going to form a reply here. Thank you ATS for letting me speak my mind here.

As the debt destroys what's left of civilization, I sit in awe, even still. So massive a fraud, so massive a campaign of misinformation. Once the media was in on it, and the school system was too, it was too late maybe then. Now it's silly.

I talked to a young man who was talking in Sociology just yesterday. The teacher announced simply that "Certain manufacturers dispose of their waste product by putting it into the drinking supply and/or food supply". My friend looked around and saw all the other people just watching with interest, not bothered in any way by the information. So he asked "Do you mean fluoride for example?" The teacher responded Yes. Still no reaction from the crowd.

This is people being "taught" and they can't even see it. The teacher is being honest, it means nothing.

I've enjoyed myself a lot more since taking a more balanced outlook on our chances. I feel like every day is a joy because so much worse is coming. I can enjoy the little things.

I support humanity, it's too bad it wont support itself.

The Catholic Church is calling for a One World Bank? LOL!!!! Oh man, it's all too real now. At least the waiting is almost over huh? They've been saying for a long time how doomed we are. They were right, but the timing was always some time in the future.

Now that's its actually unfolding it's hard to believe, even for those of us who knew it was coming. A masterful trick on us all.

I'm impressed so many of us "woke up" by the end.

reply to post by Pgrantham

If I wanted to continue this now-ridiculous conversation then I would never have called you out.

If you had not wanted to have this conversation, you would not have replied to my first post in the thread. If you did not want to continue with it, you would not have replied to the second.

I find it quite funny that you are still continuing to try and trap me, to MAKE ME GIVE YOU A NAME as if it were one person.

I don’t see the joke. It needn’t be one person, it could be a dozen, or a legion. Name them. It could be an institution or a group of institutions. Name them. It may simply be a group of people who can be described collectively – such as, to use an example I provided earlier, brand owners, financiers, governments in certain countries. Name them. If you don’t, you’re merely blaming some shadowy Unknown for all the troubles in the world. That wouldn’t make you a mere conspiracy theorist, it would make you a certifiable lunatic. Prove you are not insane; tell us who you think is behind the ‘so much trouble’ you think we’re in.

YOU have surmised that it was a "plan and set in motion by someone." YOU give me a name. YOU have brought up a "population program." YOU have used the "Powers That Be" reference. YOU have brought up "hidden manipulators." YOU are the paranoid one.

Hardly. I do not believe in conspiracies. What the OP calls the trouble we’re in is just history happening as far as I’m concerned.

You say I haven't responded to your "point about resources never being adequate because of status competition." Oh, I have.

You mean this?

There was a time not long ago, when resources were, just as you say, limited, but only to the rational proximity of the consumer. This was due to 3 things: lack of transportation, lack of instantaneous communication, and lack of free information (to increase resourcefulness). We now live in a world with all three and even more.

Yes, you’re right, I entirely neglected that ‘explanation’ – because (1) it is so silly it would be embarrassing to explain why it is nonsense and (2) it has nothing whatsoever to do with my point about status competition. Which you didn’t really understand, did you. It’s an argument from anthropology and evolutionary biology, not from economics, political science or internet legend.

reply to post by Astyanax


You do not believe in conspiracies?

So people don't ever meet to discuss business in private?

Good to know.

Once you admit you are supposedly a grown person, and "don't believe in conspiracies" you essentially single yourself out as a clueless one.

Originally posted by skuly
People are mostly good deep down and if/when the
police or even army is called in how many will
just follow orders to repress the people or join them.

If the goverment starts to feel its losing control of
the population i really fear that it will do anything
to stay in power.

Dr Phil Zimbardo is the psychologist famous for the college prison experiment--the one that had to be stopped well before it was planned . . . becasuse the students took their prison guard roles toooo seriously--even when the roles were switched.

He once wrote in the preface to his Intro to Psychology Textbook something like I'll paraphrase below--almost verbatim . . .

Monsters out there are not the problem.

There aren't many of them. There are many more of us. We can gang up on them.

The monster within each of us is a MUCH BIGGER PROBLEM.

And THAT problem, only The Prince Of Peace of 2000 years ago and returning soon . . . is the ONLY solution.

Yet all, CAN have a part.

I just received the following from email . . .

THE ROOM OF HARMONY and the Unity of the Body Vision via Susan OMarra
. . .

All of a sudden I was somewhere else. I saw what appeared to be a bright light in the form and shape of a man in front of me. The form of the man seemed to be changing as I watched. The man shape was illuminated from within even though it was light and there was no difference it it's being, I understood that it's life force was within it. The light began to swirl within it and took on a sheen that seemed to thicken and pulsate with life. The sheen was amazing for you could see layers forming within it's gloss and the layers within the light sheen were arranging as it thickened.

. . .

Then the light filled form began to thicken within itself. It clouded up as though a cloud filled it. I saw the cloudiness within it also swirl as the lights did. The cloud then layered and swirled and thickened within it even more. Soon, the light and the cloud merged and the light form shone with all of the colors of the bow. It was brilliant. The colors pulsated and the form vibrated as it swirled as one.
. . .
Then the man shape began to pulsate again and it began to illuminate from within even brighter than before. It got so bright that I could hardly look at it anymore. It also vibrated from within and streaks of light shot out of it like bolts. Then all was quiet. I turned back to look and what I saw was shocking to me. I was looking at me. It was not me, but it was me.

. . .

The seats were comfortable and each seat was a different color. My chair was white, but it also reflected all the colors luminescently much like an opal stone would do. I looked at the angel who was up front. He was waiting for us all to look at him. Then he began to speak. I could hear him, but his words were mumbled. They sounded distorted and I could not make out what he was saying.

. . .

He said to me, "yes, you must be one with your calling and your purpose before you can hear the truth and understand the higher heavenly communications that you will soon convey to the people you will be sent to."

. . .

I turned to my left and she was watching me from her chair. "You are in your calling. But you haven't yet let your heavenly identity and your earthly identity merge with your calling. You have been learning about your calling as the Lord has been training you on earth. You have been changing as He has been training you, and you have gained insights into how the heavenly realm functions and flows. But now you must flow within His flow and let go of your identity as you know it in your human thinking and perceiving. There is a higher reality. This reality is to see as He sees, to think as He thinks, and to live with the fullness of the life that He modeled on the earth for us. That is why you are here. We are all here to learn more of Jesus. We are here to know Him as He is, so that we can become the fullest vessels that He desires. We are coming up higher into the knowledge of His Glory. We are being transformed everyday by the knowledge of Him."

. . .

The angel was talking, but his voice was still garbled to me. I decided to just close my eyes because I reasoned that maybe I could hear him clearer with my eyes closed than open. Suddenly, I saw the angel speaking with my eyes closed and I could understand his words! My eyes flew open in surprise, and the angel up front was speaking garbled again. I closed my eyes, and the angel was speaking clearly again. Amazing! I could hear clear when my eyes closed and not open! Suddenly the angel up front stopped and looked directly at me and smiled. He said, "Yes. You can always hear clear when you see with your spirit. When you trust more in what you see by your flesh than what you see with the eyes of your heart, then you will always be out of harmony with the Lord and His Voice will not be clear

. . .

out of characters

reply to post by BO XIAN


Well Bo Xian at least you've given up on mankind fixing this mess. That's a move in the right direction. I wish I had a magical prince to make it all better, because I'd love to meet him/her/it!

reply to post by Astyanax


LOL, you have degraded yourself enough! You would do yourself well to submit. You have been outplayed by your own game.

I do not believe in conspiracies.

Asty...please...you're starting to sound like a Jersey Shore character trying to convince someone that they're not crazy.

"But, but...I SWEAR I...am...not...CRAZY!!!"

You have failed. You would do well in learning a bit of Jungian Theory. Moving on, now.

reply to post by BO XIAN


excerpts from

Susan OMarra's vision of

THE ROOM OF HARMONY and the Unity of the Body

. . .
You must learn more of Him. That is why you are here. His Light has been coming already, and it has begun to shine even more this year, but what is about to spread out throughout the earth will be much greater. For the strength of the darkness is great. But the Light of the Lord through you shall become even greater than the darkness. You must arise and shine with the Light of the Lord. But you cannot do this if any part of you is in discord or is out of harmony with Him."

"Anything that you withhold from Him separates you from Him. Anything that you desire more than Him causes discord within your heart from His heart. Anything that you believe apart from His Truth brings you into disharmony with Him and with His Kingdom. This causes your light to wane and His voice to also become garbled and muffled and your understanding is diminished. Anything you yield your will to, will be what you join to. What you join to will ultimately influence you and control you. You must not do this. You must recognize your need for Him even more.

. . .

Her website:

www.intheimageofhisglory.com...

The above vision in full:

www.intheimageofhisglory.com...

BTW, I just received written authorization to post parts (AND at my discretion) ALL of her material as long as I don't change the wording and include the link. She's a sharp, gracious Sister in The Lord with quite a prophetic gifting, discernment and insight.

Originally posted by thejlxc
reply to post by BO XIAN

 

Well Bo Xian at least you've given up on mankind fixing this mess. That's a move in the right direction. . . . to make it all better, because I'd love to meet him/her/it!

Welllllllllll, of course, as the NT books of John, Romans, I, II, & III John etc. outline, meeting Him and walking with Him is quite possible.

. . . and a Great desire of HIS.

However, He likes things done HIS way.

And, yeah, after Armageddon . . . things will be set to right.

AND we CAN have a part.

Scripture says that ALL CREATION GROANS YEARNINGLY, DESPERATELY for the manifestation of the sons of God . . .

evidently to help relieve it of the plague of sin and sin's consequences.

. . . which results when non-love is chosen over love & perfection..

reply to post by thejlxc

You do not believe in conspiracies? So people don't ever meet to discuss business in private?

You’re right. I should have said I don’t believe in conspiracy theories. Of course conspiracies do exist; I have been a conspirator myself – at least as a schoolboy – and you probably have too. And, of course, every educated person has read this quotation from the father of capitalism, Adam Smith:

People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices.

– The Wealth of Nations

I should have thought that my meaning was rather obvious, given the context of our discussion. But then, I should have remembered that there are some very literal-minded folk out there among the Interwebs.

*

reply to post by BO XIAN

The monster within each of us is a MUCH BIGGER PROBLEM.

For once, BoXian, you and I are in complete agreement about a problem.

But sadly, not about the solution:

And THAT problem, only The Prince Of Peace of 2000 years ago and returning soon . . . is the ONLY solution.

Nice dream.

*

reply to post by Pgrantham

LOL, you have degraded yourself enough!

I don’t see it, but I am happy to ‘degrade myself’, as you put it, in the service of truth.

You're starting to sound like a Jersey Shore character trying to convince someone that they're not crazy.

I suppose this must be a television programme. I’m afraid I don’t watch television. It’s not real, you know. If some of the people on this thread realized that, their mental health would improve dramatically.

You have failed.

I have certainly failed to get you to talk sense, or to provide any evidence for your arguments.

You would do well in learning a bit of Jungian Theory.

I first read Archetypes & the Collective Unconscious in 1980, having previously read Memories, Dreams & Reflections and Man & His Symbols (the popular summaries of his ideas) in paperback as an teenager. When did you start reading Jung? When did you start reading?

Moving on, now.

Yes, that’s best. On your bike, son.

reply to post by christina-66


The LOVE of money is the root of all evil. Money can't do anything on its own, it can't walk or talk but in the hands of the powerful, greedy people controlling this world ... uh oh!

reply to post by Astyanax


Welllllllll . . . .

He came exactly as prophesied He would in the suffering servant role the first time . . .

I have every confidence He'll come exactly as prophesied He will in the Conquering King role the 2nd time.

Expectations based on excellent evidence are hardly dreams.

reply to post by Astyanax


Actually, Jung was an occultist.

He was quite significantly into the dark occult practices of his day.

They certainly influenced his philosophy.

This is one exploration of the topic:

psychicinvestigator.com...

.

Originally posted by NellahB
reply to post by christina-66

 

The LOVE of money is the root of all evil. Money can't do anything on its own, it can't walk or talk but in the hands of the powerful, greedy people controlling this world ... uh oh!

If it wasn't money it would be something else.

It's selfishness that is the root of all Evil. When one truly thinks their life is simply worth more than so many others. It's always selfishness that causes the woes of man. IMO.

reply to post by thejlxc

Originally posted by NellahB
The LOVE of money is the root of all evil. Money can't do anything on its own, it can't walk or talk but in the hands of the powerful, greedy people controlling this world ... uh oh!

Originally posted by thejlxc
If it wasn't money it would be something else. It's selfishness that is the root of all Evil.

I know what the Book of Proverbs says, but I think money, in and of itself, has the property of promoting all kinds of evildoing. This isn’t just because people tend to love money. It’s because of the way money works.

Money makes itself. The operations of lending and borrowing at interest, in their action, create new wealth. This encourages commercial lending and borrowing at all levels, together with the risks and moral hazard that always attend them. Money encourages the creation of debtors – surely an intrinsically bad thing? – because it is through the discharge of debts at interest that money propagates itself. But a proliferation of debtors is a proliferation of human beings labouring under a difficult, risky and often crippling burden. Debt often makes poverty and misery; it can tempt people to crime or self-harm, spreading and multiplying the misery.

Money imposes its own set of values upon all human dealings. They are the values of cash-convertible utility, as expressed in the bookkeeper’s ledger. Credit sale of finished goods, so much; debit raw materials and so many person-hours of labour, so much; and it implies that everything has such a value: credit a happy childhood so-and-so, debit thirty years of marriage such-and-such. If you think I am exaggerating, consider the award of alimonies, damages, etc. in the courts. Is there anything that has not, somewhere at some time, had a cash value assigned to it?

Money drives out love. Its own imperatives and temptations cut across human bonds of marriage, family, friendship, collegiality and simple shared humanity. It imposes the bluntly practical view, balancing the twenty years we’ve known Susan against the ten thousand she borrowed last year and still hasn’t paid back. Money makes us harder friends; for, if selfishness is the root of all evil, it is money that demands of us that we act selfishly.

Obviously money can do none of these things without human cooperation, but that can always be taken for granted – for money has ways of binding us to its will. These include not just the love of it but also debt, social pressure, sheer need and, as a last resort, the law. Fear of money (of what money, thwarted in its aims, might do to us) is the root of at least as much evil as the love of it is.

Now of course, we invented money. But we have invented many things over which we have lost our mastery; our inventions are forever slipping out of our grasp to go on to destinies we never dreamed of for them. Money, do not forget, is older than the wheel; it may be our race’s very first invention. When we look at the earliest written records of mankind, what do we see? Ledgers, tax-records, storekeepers’ inventories. Money had already established its ascendancy over us by the time the first cities were built. It has had a long reign, and shows no sign whatsoever of losing its grip.

Those who dream dreams of an end to scarcity had better find a way to put an end to money first. I do not think they will succeed.

reply to post by thejlxc


Actually the truth is that they can do good by protesting. Not by creating fear in the elite, not even by increasing awareness, but by martyring themselves to the system that has become so corrupted that they think they can get away with anything. People will see the protests and they will see the reaction and the hostilities grow and more people go out and then an underground will form and civil war will break out. This is inevitable at this point.

We have gone too far in the wrong direction for it to turn out differently.

The thing that makes me scratch my head is how people can see what is going on and STILL think that more government is the answer, or that a government run economy is the answer.

more freedom and greater local autonomy and control by the actual people are what's in order and what, by necessity, will eventually come of the coming conflict.

History is a great predictor of the future as much as people don't want to admit it.

We have gotten far enough away from the previous cultures that were as technologically advanced as us and as socially aware as us that their stories have become legend and are not believed.

Atlantis, The old Indian culture etc... Showing advanced technology and societal structure failed miserably and if we aren't careful in one hundred years we will be back in the stone or bronze ages with stories of boxes that allowed vast communication and entertainment the stuff of legend and folklore.

This is no joke...

Jaden

reply to post by Astyanax


Money is not what we envision it today...Money today is nothing more than a contrivance.

It is contrived, made up of nothing. We need to go back to precious metal coin issuance PERIOD!!!!.

As it stands now with fractional reserve bbanking and no real money just paper that people believe in, we could easily immediately find ourselves in a period of no one having anything and total anarchy.

If the belief in money fails tommorrow, then society will collapse. If we were still issuing ONLY coin of precious metals, like we were supposed to, then that wouldn't be a problem.

Jaden