California preacher predicts the worlds about to end. Again.

there will be an annual planetary alignment that die that always seems to cause a spike in seismic activity.

their will likely be an EQ in california and hes just picking that day to take credit for it and make himself a prophet.

reply to post by Logical one


Well of course you are entitled to question anything and everything....However Josephus and Tacitus were historians and they recorded events of the time. I wasn't born when the two worlds wars took place, but it still might not stop me carefully researching events and talking to eyewitnesses perhaps and writing about it and it being excepted as factual. Jesus died in 33CE. IIRC Tacitus wrote those words about Jesus and the Christians in 64CE, only 31years later.

The Encyclopædia Britannica, 2002 Edition, says: “These independent accounts prove that in ancient times even the opponents of Christianity never doubted the historicity of Jesus, which was disputed for the first time and on inadequate grounds at the end of the 18th, during the 19th, and at the beginning of the 20th centuries.”

In 2002, an editorial in The Wall Street Journal stated: “Most scholars, barring the stray atheist, have already accepted Jesus of Nazareth as a historical person.”

I'm always struck by Luke's accounts of matters because as a Doctor he is absolutely so meticulous on what he recorded. He evidently converted to Christianity after Jesus's death but as a faithful companion of Paul he also wrote the Book of Acts. His statement at the beginning of Luke emphasises his search for the truth.....

(Luke 1:1-4 (Luke 1:1-4) . . ."Whereas many have undertaken to compile a statement of the facts that are given full credence among us, 2 just as those who from [the] beginning became eyewitnesses and attendants of the message delivered these to us, 3 I resolved also, because I have traced all things from the start with accuracy, to write them in logical order to you, most excellent The‧oph′i‧lus, 4 that you may know fully the certainty of the things that you have been taught orally"

You can see examples of how meticulous he writes by using the word "we" when he was an eyewitness of an event taking place, but then he changes to "they" ....sometimes in the same sentence when he obviously wasn't personally there.

eg (Acts 16:11) . . ."Therefore we put out to sea from Tro′as and came with a straight run to Sam′o‧thrace, but on the following day to Ne‧ap′o‧lis"

Yet when he wasn't personally there it is obvious from the text "(Acts 12:12) 12 And after he considered it, he went to the house of Mary the mother of John who was surnamed Mark, where quite a few were gathered together and praying. . .

People say to me that the Bible is just a load of fairy stories.... well if that's true writers like Luke seem to have gone to an awful lot of trouble to just write down oral fables that were a mix of fact & fiction.

Originally posted by JB1234

I thought Jesus categorically said -

(Matthew 24:36) . . ."Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father"

Obviously some people think this particular Scripture doesn't apply to them.

This is the problem that people do not want to believe what Jesus said, still call themselves Christians.

When Jesus say - I myself do not know when end of the world comes - then who is Camping?

What Camping says is heresy, and he should be punished for that.

Originally posted by JB1234

Well of course you are entitled to question anything and everything....However Josephus and Tacitus were historians and they recorded events of the time. I wasn't born when the two worlds wars took place, but it still might not stop me carefully researching events and talking to eyewitnesses perhaps and writing about it and it being excepted as factual.

The big difference between your example of the 2 world wars is that, unlike Jesus.......we have documented written evidence, photos, video footage,physical evidence and eye witness testimony.

For Jesus we only have witness testimony..........and we really don't know who Josephus or Tactitus actually spoke to or how thorough they were in checking out peoples stories.

Further more nobody seems to know when Jesus was actually born because of no documentation or records were kept of his birth.......nor do we have ANY accounts of Jesus as a boy, a teenager, or a young man......we only have the accounts of his last years......how come the likes of Josephus and Tacitus recount nothing of Jesus's early years If they were such renowned historians?

Originally posted by vedatruth

Originally posted by JB1234

I thought Jesus categorically said -

(Matthew 24:36) . . ."Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father"

Obviously some people think this particular Scripture doesn't apply to them.

This is the problem that people do not want to believe what Jesus said, still call themselves Christians.

When Jesus say - I myself do not know when end of the world comes - then who is Camping?

What Camping says is heresy, and he should be punished for that.

Jeremiah condemned false prophets back in the days of unfaithful Israel (Jeremiah 14:14) . . .: “Falsehood is what the prophets are prophesying in my name. I have not sent them, nor have I commanded them or spoken to them. A false vision and divination and a valueless thing and the trickiness of their heart they are speaking prophetically to YOU people"

What's more Jesus also accurately predicted that "false prophets" would be a feature of the times we live in

(Matthew 24:11-13) . . ."And many false prophets will arise and mislead many; 12 and because of the increasing of lawlessness the love of the greater number will cool off. 13 But he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved"

(Matthew 24:24-28) 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. 25 Look! I have forewarned YOU. 26 Therefore, if people say to YOU, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner chambers,’ do not believe it. 27 For just as the lightning comes out of eastern parts and shines over to western parts, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 28 Wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

So if Camping however sincere in his beleifs he might be proves to be wrong again then people will have to make their own minds up...what kind of fruitage he has produced

(Matthew 7:15-20) . . .Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to YOU in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruits YOU will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? 17 Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; 18 a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. 19 Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men].

First the church scared people with hell. Then there were witches. And then demons. And then possessions. Now it's the end of the world. Nothing keeps the church full like uncertain times and fear-mongering. Don't buy the propaganda. Talk to the deities directly, if you get no answer do not trust those who say they have contacted them on your behalf.

reply to post by JB1234


JB1234,
Jim Walker puts the case against a historical Jesus much better than I can:

"We simply do not have a shred of evidence to determine the historicity of a Jesus "the Christ." We only have evidence for the belief of Jesus.

So if you hear anyone who claims to have evidence for a witness of a historical Jesus, simply ask for the author's birth date. Anyone who's birth occurred after an event cannot serve as an eyewitness, nor can their words alone serve as evidence for that event."

nobeliefs.com...

What Camping says is heresy, and he should be punished for that.

reply to post by vedatruth


I agree, he is taking advantage of
people, not right. People are his
victims.

After his prediction failed in May I am
hoping a much lesser percentage of
people will listen to Camping this time
around. He's a mad man, I wonder
if he is so self involved with himself that
he actually believes what he says.

I'd bet my bottom dollar camping has an ATS account, and hangs around the hoax/skunkworks forums
.

reply to post by Logical one


This approach is not correct as this will make all historical books worthless.

Man must learn from history, as modern man is as gullible as ancestors were. A common man does not understand big religious books, but can still learn stories in historical books.

My complaint is not about Bible. It is about a man who is proven to mislead people by his words. He should be declared a deranged and put in a penitentiary.

I am surprised they put a man in prison for stealing a small item, but not a man who caused harm to so many people.

reply to post by Logical one


No one had photos and video evidence back then. ALL we have about anything is historians recounting matters. If Jesus wasn't a historical person why would Josephus and Tacitus mention him at all?

Cornelius Tacitus, who recorded the history of Rome under the emperors. Regarding a fire that devastated Rome in 64 C.E., Tacitus relates that it was rumored that Emperor Nero was responsible for the disaster. Nero, says Tacitus, tried to place the blame on a group whom the populace called Christians. Tacitus writes: “Christus, from whom their name is derived, was executed at the hands of the procurator Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius.”—Annals, XV, 44.

No one questions the existence of either Pilate or Tiberius... so why Christus?

The Jewish historian Flavius Josephus also mentions Jesus. In discussing events that took place between the death of Festus, the Roman governor of Judea about 62 C.E., and the arrival of his successor, Albinus, Josephus says that High Priest Ananus (Annas) “convened the judges of the Sanhedrin and brought before them a man named James, the brother of Jesus who was called the Christ, and certain others.”—Jewish Antiquities, XX, 200 (ix, 1).

Why would this historian, who carefully documented matters of Jewish-Roman passing that in some cases he lived through, personally lie about "James, the brother of Jesus who was called the Christ?" He was spot on when it came to how the Romans completely destroyed Jerusalem in 70CE, which he lived through only a few years after he wrote those words attesting to Jesus being a real person.

Today the clear outline of the Roman camps, the encircling siege wall, and the vast ramp testify to how the Jewish revolt ended. An intensive archaeological excavation of Masada was completed in 1965. Commenting on the finds, The New Encyclopædia Britannica (1987) states: “The descriptions of the Roman-Jewish historian Josephus, until then the only detailed source of Masada’s history, were found to be extremely accurate.”

I'm sorry but you are clutching at straws....

As regards the birth of Jesus... we know Elizabeth, Mary's relative.... was 6 months pregnant when Mary conceived Jesus. Mary visited Elizabeth (Luke 1:56) . . .Then Mary remained with her about three months, and returned to her own home. Elizabeth gave birth to her son shortly afterwards.

.Jewish tradition states that John the Baptist was born "in the ides of March" - the early days of March. Jesus - 6 months later would therefore have been born in the early days of October 2BCE

This fits in with the prophecy of Jesus in Daniel and the weeks of years and counting back from the cutting off of Messiah three and a half weeks of years...

Jesus evidently was born in the month of Ethanim (September-October) of the year 2 B.C.E., was baptized about the same time of the year in 29 C.E., and died about 3:00 p.m. on Friday, the 14th day of the spring month of Nisan (March-April), 33 C.E

Luke testifies to the events surrounding Jesus birth and the reason he was born in Bethlehem and not Nazareth and also dates the birth.... (Luke 2:1-5) . . ."Now in those days a decree went forth from Caesar Au‧gus′tus (Gaius Octavius) for all the inhabited earth to be registered; 2 (this first registration took place when Qui‧rin′i‧us was governor of Syria 3 and all people went traveling to be registered, each one to his own city. 4 Of course, Joseph also went up from Gal′i‧lee, out of the city of Naz′a‧reth, into Ju‧de′a, to David’s city, which is called Beth′le‧hem, because of his being a member of the house and family of David, 5 to get registered with Mary, who had been given him in marriage as promised, at present heavy with child"

It has become evident from Roman inscription that Luke was exactly correct in stating that Quirinius was Governor of Syria on two occasions and historians now think this was about 3-2BCE, again backing up the year of Jesus birth, and the fact that this registration would not have been carried out mid winter neither. Travel would have been difficult.

The later registration under Quirinius' second term as governor is recorded also by Josephus in 6CE because their was a Jewish revolt because of it.

We read in The World Book Encyclopedia: “The early Christians did not celebrate His [Christ’s] birth because they considered the celebration of anyone’s birth to be a pagan custom.”—Volume 3, page 416.

Jesus was not born on December 25th - The shepherds would not have had their flocks out at night at that time of year - the hills of Palestine are far too cold for this to be a date. Nor would the Romans have expected the Jews to have travelled great distances in the middle of winter back to their homelands to register as part of the census. Christmas was instead adopted by later Church fathers from the Roman pagan festival of Saturnalia.

reply to post by Logical one


Jim Walker needs to brush up on his Roman and Jewish history lessons...

We have secular as well as Biblical writers mentioning Jesus as a historical person. If you and Jim wish to refute the evidence, then so be it...even if to me, dare I say... it seems a little illogical.

reply to post by BalderAsir


Actually Harold Camping is not predicting this"again" per say. This was all part of his original prediction but now it is crunch time for him. According to him the "rapture" was a process and right about now it is all supposed to come to head and "happen".

Notice the quotes I made, I do not hold much stock in this guy's predictions but it is what it is. I chalk it up to the typical religious zealotry you would expect to see from someone who truly believes. Maybe now he will wake up and realize that religion is a lot of nonsense.

reply to post by JB1234


Good research.

In India, the festival of Vijayadashmi or Diwali is off by 6 months from actual date.

If something becomes popular, people start accepting that as 'fact'.

It is true inaccuracies are there in historical books. Despite that history is the best teacher for the illiterate and semi-literate, people who do not have the intellect to study scripture.

My point is that a cheat and a liar should not be able to hide behind cloak of religion. He should be punished just as other criminals are.

Originally posted by JB1234


Jim Walker needs to brush up on his Roman and Jewish history lessons...

We have secular as well as Biblical writers mentioning Jesus as a historical person. If you and Jim wish to refute the evidence, then so be it...even if to me, dare I say... it seems a little illogical.

Let me ask you this, If Jesus did in fact exist, then all those that knew him from family, friends acquaintances would have known him to be an important figure right?
Then why is it that noone that he came in contact with seems to have any artefacts of Jesus......no letters no pieces of carpentry, no clothes no sandals, no dwellings?
Why did none of his contemporaries have in their possession any artefacts to show the world?
Alexander the Great who lived centuries earlier than Jesus had artefacts and letters......but Jesus had nothing.

I understand it would not be possible for some to conclude that there was no historical Jesus.....otherwise that would completely invalidate your belief and faith........ but you have to admit that Jesus really hasn't made it easy for anyone to properly validate his historical existence.

Originally posted by Logical one

Originally posted by JB1234

I understand it would not be possible for some to conclude that there was no historical Jesus.....otherwise that would completely invalidate your belief and faith........ but you have to admit that Jesus really hasn't made it easy for anyone to properly validate his historical existence.

The Bible records that Jesus had nothing materially apart from what he wore on his back. He was poor - consequently they gave him a robe and made a crown of thorns for his head, then hung a sign above his head stating .“This is Jesus the King of the Jews.” Math 27:37 Pilate had this sign written in Latin, Hebrew and Greek as he was angry at Caiphus & the other leaders of the Jewish Sanhedrin for forcing him to execute Jesus.

Even his clothes were ripped to pieces by the Roman soldiers who executed him all except his inner garment which was made of fine cloth. Over this they caste lots over.

Therefore how on earth can anyone blame Jesus for not making it easy by making sure his sandals weren't left for antiquity or a piece of clothing when he was literally stripped naked and left to die an agonising death?!!!

I ask YOU again... Why would Tacitus and Josephus who were NOT Christian's bother mentioning Jesus Christ if he didn't ever exist? Why would countless Christians both former Jews and converted Gentiles some of whom would have known he was a matter of fiction or not...... yet these same people were prepared to die for their unquestonable and absolute faith in him?

The record that many early Christians made for themselves is one of outstanding loyalty, even when faced with death under extreme torture. Of the terrible persecution that befell them during the reign of Caesar Nero, who shifted the blame onto them for the fire that destroyed much of Rome. Again the historian Tacitus notes:

“An arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.”

Had Jesus not existed then what the heck would these people some of whom worked with the man have been prepared to show such extremes of loyalty and faith? especially when ALL they had to do to was swear allegiance to Caesar and renounce their Christian faith.

I don't think anyone is prepared to die for Camping the Californian Preacher, because he's been shown to be a false prophet.... yet even you have to admit he exists.

So now we have a man that people fictiously made up and didn't exist...but they were prepared to be persecuted over and die for en masse... over a lie?!!!.. I'm sorry but again that's simply not logical

Originally posted by JB1234

The Bible records that Jesus had nothing materially apart from what he wore on his back. He was poor - consequently they gave him a robe and made a crown of thorns for his head, then hung a sign above his head stating .“This is Jesus the King of the Jews.” Math 27:37 Pilate had this sign written in Latin, Hebrew and Greek as he was angry at Caiphus & the other leaders of the Jewish Sanhedrin for forcing him to execute Jesus.

Even his clothes were ripped to pieces by the Roman soldiers who executed him all except his inner garment which was made of fine cloth. Over this they caste lots over.

Therefore how on earth can anyone blame Jesus for not making it easy by making sure his sandals weren't left for antiquity or a piece of clothing when he was literally stripped naked and left to die an agonising death?!!!

I ask YOU again... Why would Tacitus and Josephus who were NOT Christian's bother mentioning Jesus Christ if he didn't ever exist?

So Jesus only ever had one set of clothes?
What about the cups and plates he used?
If he was a carpenter, then what things did he make.......and where are they?

The VERY valid point Mr.Walker makes is that there remains NO first hand account of Jesus.......meaning we have no record of any contemporaries that lived in Jesus time, ever remarking about his existence........why is this?

You ask why Tacitus and Josephus mention him at all, well first of all some of Josephus supposed writings of Jesus have subsequently turned out to be fakes.
What they do record of Jesus is fleeting, and absent of any detail........not even revealing any physical description of him.
Who can say what motivated particular historians some 2,000 years ago.......and what methods and techniques did they employ to research histories of people before their own time.......If it was purely based on stories then the Christians would have spread many stories of Jesus in the decades after his supposed death.
Tacitus and Josephus would only have needed to have spoken to one or two ardent Christians to have believed he was an actual person and thus recorded his presence in their retrospective accounts of him.

reply to post by Logical one


Matthew was a disciple of Jesus... in other words the guy knew him... he didn't need any of his possessions to prove he existed..... he wrote a full account of Jesus life.

John particularly describes himself as the disciple that Jesus loved he wrote about his experiences with Jesus.......in other words he knew the guy he didn't need artifacts...

The letter of James was written by Jesus half brother James.... Jospehus the Jew wrote about him too... James must have written his letter sometime prior to 62 C.E. In this year, according to the Jewish historian Josephus, High Priest Ananus, a Sadducee, was responsible for bringing James before the Sanhedrin and then having him stoned to death. Some scholars believe that the date of James’ writing was about 60 C.E.

High Priest Ananus (Annas)... the father-in-law of Caiphus who was responsible for having Jesus put to death under Pontius Pilate.Who is also mentioned as a REAL person in the Bible backed up by secular writings (Luke 3:2) . . .in the days of chief priest An′nas and of Ca′ia‧phas, God’s declaration came to John the son of Zech‧a‧ri′ah in the wilderness.

Annas (son of Seth) (Appointed by Quirinius; deposed by Valerius Gratus, governor of Judea, about 15 C.E.
Quirinius mentioned in Scripture by Luke, who had a direct impact on where Jesus was born, written about by those liars Tacitus and Josephus...wait a minute... isn't he also mentioned on a tablet of Stone found in Rome called the Lapis Tiburtinus...

All three, Matthew, John & James were liars then?..... What proof of this do you bring forth?

Two secular "HISTORIANS" not story writers, were liars then or were stupid enough to beleive any old fable and write it down......Particularly Josephus whose accuracy of his writings has been proved by recent archaeological finds.

I give up... you are grasping at straws...... and you certainly aren't applying logic to this subject at all to my mind.... it's more like blind denial!

Still I've laid out the evidence.... and I'm not wasting any more time debating this subject... it's up to everyone to make their own minds up.

If Jesus wasn't historically real before, the Christian following has certainly made him so. So, really, it doesn't matter. Belief is amazing at bringing the non-existent into existence. It's the same with these 'end-times' predictors, the more people they trick into believing in the end, the faster the end will come. It really does baffle me that so many Christian's look for someone to announce the end when the Christian ending will be undeniably obvious.

Originally posted by JB1234

I give up... you are grasping at straws...... and you certainly aren't applying logic to this subject at all to my mind.... it's more like blind denial!

Blind denial...... that's good!

Although it's not really denial it is the search for proper proof of existence.......not accounts from the Bible......written several centuries after Jesus supposedly died.

I'd rather search for proper proof of Jesus existence than Blind Faith.
But Like I said, I ain't gonna change your mind..........you already "believe" even though there is still very little evidence that Jesus existed at all.......but I guess that's what faiths all about.......believing in something with no real proof that the Bible is anything more than a Fairy Tale.