Are these chemtrials or contrails?

After reading here the other day about chemtrials i remembered a photo i took while on Westbury hill in Sussex in 2003. I remember looking up and seeing what i thought at the time were trials from an aircraft, but thinking about the several hours i spent there on that day, watching the sun go down, i don�t remember seeing or hearing any aircraft in the sky. What do you think?

Contrails. Nicely backlit by the setting sun.

whats the difference and how do you tell?

those are chemtrials you can see how they float apart turning into a thin cloud, contrail just evaporate and vanish, contrail are very short in length as well

[edit on 28-8-2004 by Sauron]

so which are they? you are both saying different things...

Originally posted by DanTodd
so which are they? you are both saying different things...

there ChemTrails,
also contrail disiapate quickly they don't linger for hours and spread out

Originally posted by Sauron
those are chemtrials you can see how they float apart turning into a thin cloud, contrail just evaporate and vanish, contrail are very short in length as well

[edit on 28-8-2004 by Sauron]

Originally posted by Sauron

Originally posted by DanTodd
so which are they? you are both saying different things...

there ChemTrails,
also contrail disiapate quickly they don't linger for hours and spread out

So Sauron, are you saying that a contrail, which is made up of water vapor (ice crystals, actually) which is the same thing that clouds are made of, does not behave in the same way as a cloud?

After all, clouds don't "just evaporate and vanish," do they?

In fact you can see a cloud in the above picture of the contrails. If the atmospheric conditions are right for that cloud to exist, then why aren't they right for the contrails to persist?


Some cool contrail pitures:

neat one with wake vortex

aerodynamic contrail

OK, these are NOT contrails!

What about this one Sauron?



[edit on 28-8-2004 by HowardRoark]

WOW Howard you really are the contrail king.

The photograph in the original post is a chemtrail I believe, I am not an expert but it is my opinion lets get that straight.
Like your opinion it is not?
And I looked at your links and they say they are contrails but I do have reservations about that as they look fresh,
to identify a chemtrail you must watch over a period of time

Below is an example of chemtrails
Over 2 to 3 hour period.






source


chemtrail source
Chemtrails

and more contrails
More contrails



[edit on 28-8-2004 by Sauron]

Sauron:

1. Do you agree that contrails are composed of the same thing as clouds (i.e. ice crystals)?
   
   
2. If the atmospheric conditions are right for clouds to exist, then why can't contrails persist and even grow into overcast conditions, just like clouds?
   
   

Originally posted by HowardRoark
Sauron:

1. Do you agree that contrails are composed of the same thing as clouds (i.e. ice crystals)?
   
   
2. If the atmospheric conditions are right for clouds to exist, then why can't contrails persist and even grow into overcast conditions, just like clouds?
   
   

1, I don�t know the chemical composition of contrail i.e. burnt fuel and what ever other toxins, But for this discussion I will say sure they�re the same more or less.
2.how can they? they are only there because of the heat from the jet exhuast they don't spead and cover the sky.
If a jet is flying through air at altitude with a low humidity, the moist air from the jet engine might produce a slight, short-lived contrail,
an contrails have been around for years. sailors have known to look specifically at the patterns and persistence of jet contrails for weather forecasting,
A thick, long-lasting contrail indicates humid air high in the atmosphere, and can be an early sign of a storm, but again they don't spread into clouds they disapate.

Well, I have to give you credit for at least trying to answer the questions.

HRQ: Do you agree that contrails are composed of the same thing as clouds (i.e. ice crystals)?

Sauron A: I don�t know the chemical composition of contrail i.e. burnt fuel and what ever other toxins, But for this discussion I will say sure they�re the same more or less.

HR: True enough there are traces of unburned or partially burned fuel as well as normal combustion by products which are mainly H2O, CO2, and traces of NOx and SOx, from fuel additives and of course soot particles. It should be noted that todays jet engines are much more efficient then those of 20 years ago.


HR Q: If the atmospheric conditions are right for clouds to exist, then why can't contrails persist and even grow into overcast conditions, just like clouds?


Sauron A: how can they? they are only there because of the heat from the jet exhuast they don't spead and cover the sky.

HR: Hold on there. I don't think that you understand the process by which contrails form. "Heat from the exhaust?" no, contrails are formed as the normal jet engine exhaust cools down to the ambient temperature at high altitude. At 30,000 feet, the average temperature is around -48 degrees below zero. Furthermore there are thermodynamic processes in play when the hot exhaust gas exits the engine. The drop in pressure as this happens also causes a significant cooling of the gas.


Sauron A: If a jet is flying through air at altitude with a low humidity, the moist air from the jet engine might produce a slight, short-lived contrail,

HR: True, but you must remember that at the altitude that these planes fly, it only takes a very small amount of water to affect the relative humidity with respect to ice.

Sauron A: an contrails have been around for years. sailors have known to look specifically at the patterns and persistence of jet contrails for weather forecasting,
A thick, long-lasting contrail indicates humid air high in the atmosphere, and can be an early sign of a storm, but again they don't spread into clouds they disapate.

HR: Why do they have to dissipate? If a storm front is moving through, then the conditions are ripe for overcast anyway. I suggest you research the phenomena known as supersaturation google the terms supersaturation and atmosphere.


One more question: What is the best scientific evidence that chemtrails exist?

Contrails form when hot humid air from jet exhaust mixes with air of LOW pressure and temperature. The mixing of cold/hot air is caused by turbulence from the exhaust. It's Kind of similar to seeing your breath when it's cold.
The higher the A/C the more chance of contrail. A lot of the chemtrails we see are at too lower altitude for them to be contrials of that size and density. The lower the A/C the shorter the contrail will be.
How long they last depends on the humidy and winds.
Clouds are usualy at a lower altitude than the contrial forming altitude and even though they are formed from water it's a totaly different process.
That's why contrails don't act the same way clouds do. I think...lol

HR: One more question: What is the best scientific evidence that chemtrails exist?

Oh that�s a tough one
if there was any substantial scientific evidence, I take it you mean beyond a shadow of a doubt. Then we would not be discussing if they exist or not, but there are some good sites on the subject.

here's one anyway
www.carnicom.com/contrails.htm
CARNICOM.COM

And I will look into super saturation, sounds like something I used to do in my younger days involving barley and hops

Originally posted by Sauron

HR: One more question: What is the best scientific evidence that chemtrails exist?

Oh that�s a tough one

if there was any substantial scientific evidence, I take it you mean beyond a shadow of a doubt. Then we would not be discussing if they exist or not, but there are some good sites on the subject.

here's one anyway
www.carnicom.com/contrails.htm
CARNICOM.COM

And I will look into super saturation, sounds like something I used to do in my younger days involving barley and hops

You know I figured that you would link to Crazy Clifford.

Have you even bothered to look at any of his so called proof?

The guy is a certified nut job.

Did you see the part on his web page where he gave himself a home root canal?

well if those are contrails then there are contrails all around everytime i walk outside.

Definately CHEMtrails. Dont pay any attention to howard, hes FOS about them being contrails. Itd be nice if one day they would tell us what theyre really doing so all the nonbelievers would shutup.

oh there chemtrails, I see them almost every day, I've photographed them,
watched clears blue skys turn gray and cloudy after they get done criss crossing the sky with there chemtrails

Originally posted by chrisnolefan
Definately CHEMtrails. Dont pay any attention to howard, hes FOS about them being contrails. Itd be nice if one day they would tell us what theyre really doing so all the nonbelievers would shutup.

You are the one claiming that they are chemtrails.

All I ask is that you prove it.

So far no one has done that.

No shred of scientific proof.

Nothing.

Nada

Nix.

0

Is it possible for them to be a bit of both? Like there is fuel mixed in with the water vapour right? Surely planes stink up the sky with filth just like the cars do with smog? Plus on the Chemtrailers side, it wouldn't be the first time the populace has been subject to experiments, like how they tested atomic isotopes on people back in the 50's and 60's