Why is everyone afraid of a place called HELL?

Originally posted by jhill76
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Sorry, but your quote does not say burn forever, it says eternal punishment. The second death is the killing of the soul, which indeed is eternal. What is the opposite of life: death. Christ says you only have two options: life or perish.

The Bible says that "death and hell" will be thrown in the lake of fire. I've already posted all three verses from Revelation that talk about the Second Death here in this thread.

Originally posted by jhill76
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Sorry, but your quote does not say burn forever, it says eternal punishment. The second death is the killing of the soul, which indeed is eternal. What is the opposite of life: death. Christ says you only have two options: life or perish.

•Matthew 13:50 “furnace of fire…weeping and gnashing of teeth
•Mark 9:48 “where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched”
Revelation 14:11 “the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever and they have no rest day and night
•Revelation 20:14 “This is the second death, the lake of fire
•Revelation 20:15 “If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire”

There's alot more versus in the OT referring to burning in hell to. Thats a whole lot of fire, and just what do you think that fire is going to be doing? Giving you a gentle massage and a relaxing time in a nice warm sauna? i don't think so. You burn for eternity, there is no universalism where you get a chance to leave eternal torment. There is no annihilationism where you burn until you cease to exist. These are doctrines of devils and false prophets.

And among them are unlettered ones who do not know the Scripture except in wishful thinking, but they are only assuming.

So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.

And they say, "Never will the Fire touch us, except for a few days."
Say: "Have you taken a covenant with Allah? For Allah will never break His covenant. Or do you say about Allah that which you do not know?"

Yes, whoever earns evil and his sin has encompassed him - those are the companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally.

-Qur'an, 2:78-81

reply to post by Deetermined


That death is death of the physical body in which the saints will never taste again. With the fall came death, with the new earth, no one will experince death, so it will be thrown in the fire. Revelations states the saints will not experince the second death, which is total seperation from God.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Hmmm. Of course Hell will burn forever, I never said that. All those quotes reference what Hell will be like. Man will re live all of their sins over and over. It's always easy to throw the false prophet term out there, when referencing things in which you know only parts of. More like I'm right and you're wrong, which so many of the faith hide under.

Originally posted by jhill76
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Hmmm. Of course Hell will burn forever, I never said that. All those quotes reference what Hell will be like. Man will re live all of their sins over and over. It's always easy to throw the false prophet term out there, when referencing things in which you know only parts of. More like I'm right and you're wrong, which so many of the faith hide under.

edit on 9-10-2011 by jhill76 because: (no reason given)

It's not a matter of me being right. All this comes from the bible. The Word of God. It comes from Jesus himself who is the Living Word, the bible made flesh and God in person. Jesus is the one who has said all of this, to say this is false you call the Lord himself a liar.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Wow. I never said it was false, I said you don't know the full process because its not included in revelations. I said Jesus promises life or death, that's it. It only says the beast and the false prophet will burn forever, not man. If this was told in churches today, people would use it as a free pass to do what they wanted, because they dont understand the full process. You do not want to be seperated from God, that is the worst.

I will give you its not clear in our bible in which we have. Eternal punishment can be interpreted many ways.

Originally posted by jhill76
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Wow. I never said it was false, I said you don't know the full process because its not included in revelations. I said Jesus promises life or death, that's it. It only says the beast and the false prophet will burn forever, not man. If this was told in churches today, people would use it as a free pass to do what they wanted, because they dont understand the full process. You do not want to be seperated from God, that is the worst.

I will give you its not clear in our bible in which we have. Eternal punishment can be interpreted many ways.

edit on 9-10-2011 by jhill76 because: (no reason given)

Revelation 20:12-15

"12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

Matthew 25:41-46

" 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me. 44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you? 45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me. 46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

So, are you trying to tell me that you read the verses in Matthew to say that God will send them into the eternal fire before he sends them to eternal punishment? Are you trying to separate the two?

reply to post by Deetermined


They are one in the same. The eternal fire is a place. Eternal punishment is an act. They complete each other so to speak. God knew what he was doing when he didnt lay out the entire process. Man would use it for wrong intentions.

Originally posted by jhill76
reply to post by Deetermined

 

They are one in the same. The eternal fire is a place. Eternal punishment is an act. They complete each other so to speak. God knew what he was doing when he didnt lay out the entire process. Man would use it for wrong intentions.

edit on 9-10-2011 by jhill76 because: (no reason given)

You are right that eternal punishment and the lake of fire are the one in the same, but you are wrong that he didn't lay down the entire process. The entire process has been set down in his 600 laws and fulfilled by Jesus Christ.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

The entire process has been set down in his 600 laws and fulfilled by Jesus Christ.

I was referring to the process in which details the second death. There is way more that goes on that is not written.

There are certain keys of understanding in the Bible. I take one of them to be what Jesus said to his disciples, that if it were not so, He would have told them. Of course - it was not then and is not now in His very nature to lie, and surely this is true of His Father also. So, let's go back to the garden, where God told Adam & Eve that if they ate of a certain fruit, they would die. Note that: just die. He did not tell them that eating the fruit also put them in danger of eternal torment, did He? No, He was quite silent on something of such importance. If Hell was real then, or going to be real later, would a loving God not have warned people over and over? However, instead of "The soul that sinneth shall die and go to eternal punishment," we have "The soul that sinneth shall die." All the rest is assumption, bias, and reading too much into the text. Truly the wages of sin are death, BUT against that we have the GIFT of eternal life by grace through faith. Both the grace and the faith are gifts from God, who said He would pour out his Spirit on ALL FLESH. Universal Reconciliation thus concerns not only man, but all living things, even the entire created universe. In case you all are wondering, I also subscribe to the doctrine of Irresistible Grace.

I really can not believe some people on this issue. I think some of them suffer from mental dissonance when such a topic is brought up, but an open-minded examination of the origin and history of the doctrine of Hell should get anyone thinking. Doctrines of devils? The middle ages were full of them. From Dante on, every depiction of Hell I have read is contained in a work of fiction, pious to be sure, but fiction nevertheless. We need to drag our Christianity out into the full light of day, away from "You're all sinners, and you're all going to Hell, unless..." toward the realization that we serve a loving God, who so loved the world that He gave Himself up to a cruel death which should have been ours. I will state boldly that if anyone perishes, then the Plan of Salvation has failed. Do you not think this was all worked out before the foundation of the world? Do you really think that a loving and all-powerful God failed to devise a Plan that would save 100% of humanity? God asked Job if he thought anything was too difficult for Him. Would this God have settled for 70%? 40% No, God is perfect, and therefore His Plan is perfect, and that being so, I must believe the 100%. Not all at once, not all together, not even soon, but eventually. Further, the wicked (well, "hell," we're all wicked by God's standards) will pay dearly for their sins, if they do not pass muster at the Great White Throne Judgment. Being thrown alive into the Lake of Fire is truly horrible to contemplate, I do admit.

Most of the Bible verses thrown at me on this thread I read through the bias of my viewpoint, just as Hell-believers see the same verses through the filters of their biases. This is expected, and unavoidable, but isn't it interesting that I have no mental dissonance at all? I read the verse, and interpret it, and take comfort from it though it was meant to discredit what I believe. It should make some of you wonder how much of what you believe is really in the scripture, and how much you are reading into it. I am not much of a chapter and verse person, but I observe patterns of concepts in the text, and internalize them. Maybe it is not theological at all, but something acting at a deeper, even psychological level. I believe this to be true:

People who focus on the justice of God will tend to subscribe to the eternal punishment/torment of the wicked.

People who focus on the mercy of God will tend to subscribe to the final annihilation of the wicked.

People who focus on the love of God will tend to subscribe to the eventual reconciliation and restoration of the wicked.

Like they say, you pays your nickel, and you makes your choice.

reply to post by Lazarus Short

- you are going to the Kingdom, but you'd better repent now, so you won't miss out on anything and have to pay dearly for your sins. Eventual salvation, yes, but sins must be paid for if not covered by the blood of Jesus.

I did a Google search for "covered by the blood of Jesus" and found a site which gave some verses to back this up and the one that seemed to me to apply was Mathew 26:28
for this is my blood, the blood of the covenant, that is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Conveniently, it just happens to be the example used in my lexicon for the definition of the word, forgiveness, which goes beyond just the literal meaning of the word.

2. in imagistic extension of release from confinement and cancellation of liabilities: forgiveness (of), release (from) with the gen. ἁμαρτιῶν Mt 26:28

Frederick William Danker. The Concise Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament
Notice the word, covenant, in the verse in Mathew, this explains how we are forgiven, which is the abolishment of the old system of debt and payment, and the establishment of the New Covenant that was brought about through the blood of Jesus. The new system under Jesus' covenant is straight-out forgiveness, and none of that OT stuff about payment.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Matthew 13:50 “furnace of fire…weeping and gnashing of teeth

It may be helpful to look at the context from which you extracted this bit from.
Jesus was with his disciples as he was talking to the people in parables.
They went into a house and the disciples asked Jesus what the parable meant.
He gave an explanation and they still did not seem to get it.
So he ties the same explanation into a group of illustrations involving treasure, pearls, and fish, and ending right back with what he said earlier about the parable of the tares.
He throws in another bit to the mix by quoting Daniel about those who will be able to shine like the sun. Well, why didn't they shine earlier, when there was no sure way to visually differentiate between the good and the bad plants?
I have to think that it was because Jesus was only then getting out of his allegorical mode and into the strictly literal.
Then Jesus asks, 'Now do you understand everything I said?' This shows me that Jesus never got to where it was not still in the realm of the metaphorical, so needed to get confirmation from them that they got it.

It really dosent make sense when the Bible states that sinners will be cast into hell, eternal pit of fire or what ever the Bible state.

If God is thee eternal/infinite "I am" Than we humans can not be of any other than thee God "I am".

God can not create other "I am's" that are not of him self. (Ref. God created us in his image) (God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul).

Why would God condemn him self to hell, or to burn for eternity?

Each one of us have Gods soul (the i am function), in a living body created by flesh.


There is also one more thing people have to think about. In the Bible it says that when our souls go to heaven, no recollection of our past human life will be remembered. If this is the case, what does our sins on earth have to do with who comes to heaven or who burns in hell? Everything will be forgotten and forgiven.

The bible also say;
What we have created and done for our selves here on earth, we can not take with us when we die.

The other question that pops up is; How can people say that when we die we will be reunited with our family in heaven? Your family will not know who you are. They have no recollection of their human life.


If God breathed his soul into the flesh giving the flesh a soul/life, wouldn't that make each one of us here on earth, God in the flesh?

Why would God condemn him self? It doesn't make sense any of it.
Heaven cant exist neither can hell. When we die, our soul becomes a part of the eternal/infinite God "I am",
As God was the one who entered our flesh and gave us life in the first place.

Originally posted by jhill76
reply to post by Deetermined

 

They are one in the same. The eternal fire is a place. Eternal punishment is an act. They complete each other so to speak. God knew what he was doing when he didnt lay out the entire process. Man would use it for wrong intentions.

edit on 9-10-2011 by jhill76 because: (no reason given)

What in the world are you talking about? Go back and read those verses in Matthew again. What part of the Bible do you think overrides those verses and doesn't make it the "whole truth"?

Remember, the Bible doesn't contradict itself. You can't have God mentioning people in the ETERNAL lake of fire or suffering ETERNAL punishment and then say there's another process, so therefore, it's not really eternal. Either you're lying to yourself or you can't comprehend the word eternal. If you look at the verses in Matthew, it is talking about people, not Satan, the Beast or the False Prophet. Go back and read the story where God separated the sheep from the goats, but please don't tell me that the goats are the animals of the earth. God was clearly talking to man in Matthew.

I really must know what source you use that's telling you this. If you say there's another process, please share it. Don't make it sound like it's a secret. Only Satan would tell you that.

reply to post by spy66

Why would God condemn him self to hell, or to burn for eternity?

He didn't condemn himself to hell. We are not God. God didn't do the sinning man did. When the bible says that God made man in his image, it did not mean he made us as equals or that he made us to look like him. That passage is a metaphor that he used to tell us that there are 3 parts to man as there are 3 parts to him. Body spirit and soul (which is where the "Trinity" comes from). If you think you are God you are gravely mistaken and youre going to have a hard time convincing him of that when you stand before the white throne of judgement. You can never be the equal of something that created you, not on your best day. In truth there are not really 3 separate beings, there is only one being that has 3 aspects to him. He is the Father, He IS the Holy Spirit and his physical body is Jesus Christ (God in person or "the flesh") and Jesus Christ sits on the Throne and His Holy Spirit flows from him and into the true christians, all this wrapped into one as according to what the the bible says from the OT to the NT if you add everything in the complete bible about the Lord. You gotta connect the dots. God left a trail of breadcrumbs in the bible for us to follow to that penultimate conclusion, unfortunately some miss that trail.

I think some of you need to read these verses over and over to yourselves.

Matthew 25:31-46

"The Final Judgment

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.

34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

reply to post by jmdewey60


OK, very good point, but if someone has not come under the new covenant that the blood of Jesus makes possible, is his or her life not required for sinning?

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by spy66

 

Why would God condemn him self to hell, or to burn for eternity?

He didn't condemn himself to hell. We are not God. God didn't do the sinning man did. When the bible says that God made man in his image, it did not mean he made us as equals or that he made us to look like him. That passage is a metaphor that he used to tell us that there are 3 parts to man as there are 3 parts to him. Body spirit and soul (which is where the "Trinity" comes from). If you think you are God you are gravely mistaken and youre going to have a hard time convincing him of that when you stand before the white throne of judgement. You can never be the equal of something that created you, not on your best day. In truth there are not really 3 separate beings, there is only one being that has 3 aspects to him. He is the Father, He IS the Holy Spirit and his physical body is Jesus Christ (God in person or "the flesh") and Jesus Christ sits on the Throne and His Holy Spirit flows from him and into the true christians, all this wrapped into one as according to what the the bible says from the OT to the NT if you add everything in the complete bible about the Lord. You gotta connect the dots. God left a trail of breadcrumbs in the bible for us to follow to that penultimate conclusion, unfortunately some miss that trail.

Let's get this straight, shall we? Man is not a trinity. Look at how God created Adam. He made a body and then breathed into it the Breath of Life. Thus, man became a living soul. So: body + spirit = soul. We are one, not three. We don't have souls, we are souls. I am a soul. You are a soul. I am always amazed at how many Christians do not know this.

On the other hand, God is a Trinity of Trinities. Revelation informs us that there are seven Spirits of God. So: 1 Father + 1 Son + 7 Spirits = Nine. You probably never thought about that before. I hope I am not turning the kaleidoscope too fast for some of you...