Video of Michael Hess trapped in WTC7, before it collapsed due to "fire"

reply to post by skunkmunky


It basically has to do with the site rules for posting content from other forums. I do not feel I need the thread starters permission as by making the thread he invited pretty much any and all inquiries.

But, I haven't really followed "developments" related to 9/11 like I once did. For my own personal reasons I decided to take a step back and focus on other things. If I see things that are a part of what I have some knowledge about then I usually chime in with what information I have.

I really had not seen much of Jennings' story since before the Loose Change interview came out, and my information from then based on his perceived statements was that he was lying. I tried to catch up a little on what has transpired since then and it does seem that Jennings' has clarified some of his statements and the position I had on his statements, as well as him way back then may have been a bit harsh.

I do not know what his overall story stands at today, but back then (2007, pre LC interview release) I felt that he was either outright lying, or mistaken.

Many of his statements from then did not mesh with other eyewitness accounts, and events or scenes he claimed to have seen were either distorted by himself or by others. Since I have learned that he has clarified his statements, I'm not sure what his overall story is now, or what it all it is he claimed to have been witness to.

One of the glaring inconsistencies in his statements vs. other eyewitness accounts was the condition of the lobby of WTC 7, as well as claims of dead bodies. Those statements are not in line with other eyewitness accounts that I have seen and was one of the reasons for my harsh opinion of him and his statements.

If I could see something that explains what his overall position was, at least at the time of his death, I would be more willing and able to comment further.

reply to post by ThaLoccster


With regard to external posts, you can just use the [ ex] tags, and then use brackets to replace the nasty words with ATS friendly alternatives.

There shouldn't be a problem so long as you post the link with a disclaimer about language.

Originally posted by GoodOlDave

Originally posted by Trexter Ziam

Leukemia isn't heart disease.
One of the sons DID want to talk; but, nobody would listen.

You've been suckered by the crap those damned fool conspiracy web sites are shoveling out again. Barry Jennings' son's name is Jarel, not "Barry Jr."

I find it incredible that real live eyewitnesses with real live identities (and in some cases, easily available email addresses and telephone numbers) are always brushed of as "secret agents spreading disiformation" but anonymous posters on the internet pretenting to be people they're not are "absolutely believable". If you're attempting to say you're NOT judging everything according to whether or not they're agreeing with your conspiracy claims, you're lying through your teeth.

edit on 8-10-2011 by GoodOlDave because: (no reason given)

I don't know many people stupid enough to use own REAL names on the Internet; so, whatever screen name the poster chooses is irrelevant.

So, do you consider ATS "one of those damn fool conspiracy sites"? In many (but not all) threads it is! So, where do you get the idea he has 1 instead of 4 sons?

I don't have any conspiracy claims on this subject, therefore I cannot be lying through my teeth. It appears YOU have a firm opinion though. I, am still open ... I look at everything I come across. I haven't come across anything saying he has one (not four) sons and that that son's name is Jarel and that that son would be silly enough to use his real name online or on a computer of any nature.

Originally posted by ThaLoccster
reply to post by skunkmunky

 

It basically has to do with the site rules for posting content from other forums. I do not feel I need the thread starters permission as by making the thread he invited pretty much any and all inquiries.

But, I haven't really followed "developments" related to 9/11 like I once did. For my own personal reasons I decided to take a step back and focus on other things. If I see things that are a part of what I have some knowledge about then I usually chime in with what information I have.

I really had not seen much of Jennings' story since before the Loose Change interview came out, and my information from then based on his perceived statements was that he was lying. I tried to catch up a little on what has transpired since then and it does seem that Jennings' has clarified some of his statements and the position I had on his statements, as well as him way back then may have been a bit harsh.

I do not know what his overall story stands at today, but back then (2007, pre LC interview release) I felt that he was either outright lying, or mistaken.

Many of his statements from then did not mesh with other eyewitness accounts, and events or scenes he claimed to have seen were either distorted by himself or by others. Since I have learned that he has clarified his statements, I'm not sure what his overall story is now, or what it all it is he claimed to have been witness to.

One of the glaring inconsistencies in his statements vs. other eyewitness accounts was the condition of the lobby of WTC 7, as well as claims of dead bodies. Those statements are not in line with other eyewitness accounts that I have seen and was one of the reasons for my harsh opinion of him and his statements.

If I could see something that explains what his overall position was, at least at the time of his death, I would be more willing and able to comment further.

That's fair play and thanks for clarifying your permission enquiry and you are indeed correct that by starting this thread, I've thrown it open for debate.

You are entitled to your opinion and you have the right to dis-believe and believe who and what you want and it's not my place (olDaves) or anyone elses place to try and convince you otherwise.

If I may make so bold, when you saw the Barry Jennings interview, what made you think he was mistaken or lying?

When I first saw Barrys first hand account, I really felt for the guy and totally understand that a grown man of his stature wouldn't want to be seen crying on air.

His demeanour is that of a man bewildered and confused about WTF just happened in his place of work that nearly killed him.

Here's the full and unedited interview, watch it again and you can hear and see the raw emotion as he'd pretty much accepted his fate and said his goodbyes.



To the day he died, his account of what he experienced never changed. He only sought to retract his statements once he and his family started recieving death threats

He did NOT go on record and give a very different account of what happened.

If you or anyone wants to donate 20 minutes to listen carefully to the full and un-edited 2007 interview with Barry Jennings, I highly recommend it.

blip.tv...

He did try to retract his claim of bodies in the lobby in a BBC interview, however it's possible he may have been coaxed into this or decided to after recieving numerous threats.

Compare this account to the interview Mr Hess gave to the BBC and they differ very significantly.

reply to post by skunkmunky


After I look back, and I consider his comments in context I believe I was being too harsh on him.

It wasn't that interview that gave the original opinion though. I believe he truely experienced what he thought was an explosion, but was most likely the collapse of one of the towers and debris from it striking the building he was in.

What I took issue with was claims of the lobby of WTC 7 being completely destroyed, as well as the claims about dead bodies.

As I was reviewing my posts from years ago, I was watching one of the videos in this thread. I believe his statements were largely over-exaggerated by others, and probably taken out of context.

From his perspective, upon arriving in the lobby of the was likely to be in ruin, at least from a perspective of how he saw it on a daily basis. The windows were largely all broken, and there was ash, dust, and debris strewn throughout the lobby. But, from what I have been able to see from the lobby at that time, the stairwells I saw were not destroyed, walls were intact, as well as desks, chairs, and other items present in the lobby.

My main issue was testimony and eye witness accounts from firefighters and other officials who were present in the lobby of WTC 7 up until the moments of the collapse. They make no mention of the types of events he witnessed, but putting it in perspective it makes more sense when you consider the overall chaos of the day and damage to the surrounding buildings.

Not to plug my own thread, but if you have not read the 500+ interviews from firemen and other personnel from that day I would suggest it. The information I am speaking about is what I learned through their testimonies.

*Actually, after I typed that I went for the link and viewed the thread and realized I still haven't added the section pertaining to building 7. Either way it is still a great read, and I will do my best to get that added in the next couple of days.

Anyways, here is my thread highlighting many of the interviews, as well as links to the ones mentioned in the thread, once again I'll do my best to get the section on WTC 7 added tomorrow.

WTC Task Force Interviews/Oral Histories

reply to post by skunkmunky


Well the VID definately Raises an eyebrow or 2 and gets you thinking!

Originally posted by Trexter Ziam
I don't know many people stupid enough to use own REAL names on the Internet; so, whatever screen name the poster chooses is irrelevant.

It isn't being stupid. I already said this guy works for public relations for his company so it's his job to specifically expect people to want to locate him and ask him things. Did you ever even bother to look at the link before you made up your unsubstanciated accusations?

So, do you consider ATS "one of those damn fool conspiracy sites"? In many (but not all) threads it is! So, where do you get the idea he has 1 instead of 4 sons?

No, ATS is not a conspiracy web site. It's a conspiracy discussion forum where everyone on all sides of the debate can come and have their say. If this were an actual conspiracy web site they'd be pushing their own in-house conspiracy and enforcing it with complete censorship. I know this for a fact because when I used to post on the Loose Change forum I was banned after only two weeks. The people posting "no planes" conspiracy claims were banned immediately.

I don't have any conspiracy claims on this subject, therefore I cannot be lying through my teeth. It appears YOU have a firm opinion though. I, am still open ... I look at everything I come across. I haven't come across anything saying he has one (not four) sons and that that son's name is Jarel and that that son would be silly enough to use his real name online or on a computer of any nature.

So in other words, you're telling me you honestly believe something posted by an anonymous poster, who's using a make believe name, who you cannot ask any questions, that says absolutely nothing, and which cannot ever be confirmed. This is in comparison to your refusing to believe someone who's posting his real name, his email address, telephone number, and photo, who's saying things that corroborates what everyone else is saying, and who's openly asking people to contact him. Is this really what you're telling me?

There's a difference betwween "having an open mind" and "being horribly gullible".

Originally posted by ThaLoccster
I don't generally agree with Dave on many things, but I'm in agreement with him on this.

I have never believed much of Barry Jennings story. I need help from a mod to know if I can post content here that I posted on another forum years ago, but it deals with aspects of Jennings' story that I believe to be false.

If I can post the information here that I posted on the other forum then I'll create a post with everything I wrote in that. To be honest, even if I can post it, much of the language I used on that forum would probably get people banned on this one, but it is, at least in my opinion, and important part of the overall story and I can redact the potentially offensive language if needed.

If you wrote it then you can post it. It's copyrighted material they're on the watch for. In such cases you simply need to put a quick quotation and then provide a link to the original source.

As for obscenities, I myself only use it sparingly to underline a specific point I'm making, and I go by the rule that if it can be said on television, it can be said here. This is why I say "damned fool conspiracy web sites" because of their unrepentently dishonest nature, but I bleep out harsher words like "Bush is an incompetant pile of horse [censored]" when I express my disgust that Bush is an incompetent pile of horse [censored].

reply to post by GoodOlDave


He DID post his email address.

And you didn't show where you got the one son bit from yet.

And, as far as I know, no-planers get banned here at ATS too.

reply to post by GoodOlDave


Much of my opinion is based on stories from the Oral Histories project. There are so many people who were insided building 7 when the collapses began and not one mentions anything similar to what Jennings had to say.

There were people inside the lobby, probably a couple hundred between the emergency personnel and the ones who were being treated for injuries. Not one testimony from the personnel inside building 7 up to and during the collapse can corroborate any of what Jennings had to say, except maybe debris being in the lobby after the first collapse.

Here are a few excerpts...

EMT Jeffrey Warner

graphics8.nytimes.com...

... At Barclay Street, which I’m told the building that we came upon was number Seven World Trade Center, we noticed that there were people trapped who were unable to get out at that time or unaware of how to get out – I’m not sure I want to use the word “trapped” – on what appeared to be the eighth floor from the outside.

Myself, my partner, and off-duty fire lieutenant, somebody from OEM, who was also with the Port Authority, and a female police lieutenant made numerous attempts to get into the building from the parking area. We finally found a door that was somewhat open to the Barclay Street side near the parking garage where there was a regular door.

The fire lieutenant told me that it was padlocked, and I remember that the OEM guy had a Halligan tool. I told the boss I was going back on the ladder to get the Halligan tool and I was going to bring it to him.

He made numerous attempts to try and open the lock: it failed. We were alerted to evacuate the building by Lieutenant Scullion and Lieutenant Frazier of the former ERS.

We came out of the building, and we gathered all our equipment...

I am almost certain the people he is referring to is Stephen Hess and/or Barry Jennings. He even hesitated to use the word trapped, and it was likely they just could not find a way out, not that there was no way out.

EMT Nicole Ferrell

graphics8.nytimes.com...

... Prior to us going to West and Murray with the fireman, we were right over – I believe it was either 5 or 7. See, my memory is a little bad because I don’t know. I’m having a little hard time with this. But we went (inaudible) – no. You know what? It was 7. Now I remember. It was 7 because we went over here to West Street, like I said, and I stopped here at Barclay and I saw the firefighter. There were people screaming out of one of these two buildings over here saying they couldn’t get out, and my partner took one straggler fireman, the one that we had with us, and was trying to break the door because the door obviously had shifted or something. They couldn’t get the door open.

Q. That was 7 World Trade Center?

A. I believe it was 7, maybe it was 5. I was at the back end of it because I do remember the telephone company. So I think it was the back end of 7, I think right over here at that point, and they couldn’t get out. Then I had ran down the block and I flagged a ladder company and they brought the ladder, which they had like a vestibule that you couldn’t like really reach the people because the ladder wouldn’t reach. So the went and got other resources, they went inside the building, and I told my partner that it wasn’t safe and that we need to go because everything around us was like falling apart...

She is EMT Jeffrey Werners partner. It seems like when they were unable to reach them through the doors and were forced to evacuate that a ladder truck was brought in. That ladder was unable to reach the 8th floor due to a vestibule or awning that kept them from getting close enough. Another ladder may have been brought in, or they may have found access by other means. In any account, Jennings and Hess were rescued.

EMS Division Chief John Peruggia

graphics8.nytimes.com...

…I reached 7 World Trade Center. We walked into the lobby and we were going up the escalators to the main level. I checked in at the security desk. As we reached the top of the escalators, there were lots of people running down the escalator on the promenade. I spoke to one of the Deputy Directors and as I was speaking with him, I believe it was Deputy Directory Rotanz, who is a Fire Department Captain on detail over there, Captain Nahmod and EMT Zarrillo approached as well. They had indicated that the building was being evacuated...

This is long, and I have to split it into multiple replies...

reply to post by GoodOlDave


Continued reply....

...I questioned as to what the nature of the evacuation was. I was told that it was not because of what was occurring across the street. No one feared that the building was in danger as a result of two airplane attacks and subsequent fires, but that there were reports of a third plane that had been hijacked. It was unidentified, the location, and they thought it may be coming in for an additional strike. Therefore, the were evacuating the building.

We proceeded down to the lobby where the various agency representatives were present. We collectively started to set up in the lobby and try to think of strategies to where we could move the inter-agency cooperative effort...

…a gentleman from the building identified himself as a security person or security director. He asked me if there is anything we needed or he could provide me with regard to the EMS. We questioned him as to the ability to open up the loading bays which are associated with 7 World Trade Center. The entrances are located directly under the pedestrian foot bridge. I figured it was protected there, so debris wouldn’t fall down. He said he would do that. I directed Captain Nahmod to move the patients into that area. Again, the lobby of number 7 is all glass façade. I was concerned that if something should come off the building, go through the glass or hit the glass, we would have an extraordinary amount of patients in addition to what was already being seen.

Further we took everyone from the OEM and moved them to what would be the most southeasterly corner inside that first floor entrance of 7 World Trade. There is a big granite or marble security desk and we started to establish around that as we were trying to figure out what we were going to do…

…They were setting up outside of 7 World Trade Center, just east of the pedestrian bridge. I told them it would probably be better off to be set up under the bridge. At least it was protected. I was just about to enter a dialogue with her when I heard a sound I had never heard before. I looked up and saw this huge cloud. I told him run. I grabbed the female, I threw her through the revolving doors of number 7. We were proceeding inside. She fell to the ground. I helped her out, I pushed her towards the direction of where we were all in the south corner and there was a little doorway behind that desk which led into the loading bays.

Everyone started to run through that. Never made it to that door. The next thing I remember was that I was covered in some glass and some debris. Everything came crashing through the front of number 7. It was totally pitch black…

…I thought that part of the building or the façade of the building had collapsed. You know, it was too dusty to see outside, so we didn’t know what happened, but I knew something real bad happened. I knew that everyone we had in the lobby, or we thought everyone was accounted for. Again, there was a lot of rubble in the lobby, probably a few feet. The façade was all broken…

I believe Perrugia was responsible for or one of those responsible for running the OEM in the event that it needed to be activated, such as this day. When the 23rd floor and the OEM was evacuated they set up in the lobby. Since at first they were close to the glass facade of the building they moved further into the lobby away from the glass in the event of falling debris causing damage to the building and to those inside.

While he does back up Jennings part of the story about rubble in the lobby, and what Jennings may have perceived to be total destruction, he makes no mention of explosions inside the building or what he may have perceived to be explosions, nor does anyone else. If Jennings was close to an area of the building that was impacted by debris, it very well may have felt like an explosion to him. If that area housed stairwells that he was using to egress from the building, they may have been damaged as well. But there were working stairwells that allowed access to at least the 11th floor.

Captain Anthony Varriale

graphics8.nytimes.com...

... the Second Battalion showed up and we attempted to search and extinguish, at the which was small pockets of fire in 7 World Trade Center. We were unaware of the damage in the front of 7, because we were entering from the northeast entrance. We weren’t aware of the magnitude of the damage in the front of the building.
We made searches. We attempted to put some of the fire out, but we had a pressure problem. I forget the name of the Deputy. Some Deputy arrived at the scene and thought that the building was too dangerous to continue with the operations, so we evacuated number 7 World Trade Center...

reply to post by GoodOlDave


Varriale, while he does not mention which floors, did enter the building and attempt to extinguish fires before he was ordered to evacuate.

Firefighter George Rodriguez

graphics8.nytimes.com...

... At that point the preliminary sounds of the collapse started, the loud crackling sounds. We all started running, because I think the energy coming down through the cylinders of the building because of the pancake, the energy came out first and then the actual debris started coming.

So we all ran. Myself and the chauffeur of 26 Engine grabbed about 30 civilians as well as the maintenance men, and we put them all in the basement of Seven World Trade Center...

These men were in the basement during the collapse of one of the towers. If there were explosions in the building meant to weaken the foundations, this is likely where they would have occured. None of these people would have likely survived if that were the case.

Firefighter Fred Marsilla

graphics8.nytimes.com...

... At this point, 7, which is right there on Vesey, the whole corner of the building was missing. I was thinking to myself we are in a bad place, because it was the corner facing us...

It is likely this area of the building housed stairwells that Jennings was trying to use to egress from the building.

Lieutenant Rudolf Weindler

graphics8.nytimes.com...

... The next thing I did was we saw a fire starting to show at windows in 7 World Trade Center, decided to go in and try and see if there was anybody in the building and/or put out the fires, and we did a search from floor to floor of 7 World Trade Center passing fire of floors 3, 7, 9. The standpipes had no water. We tried to extinguish a few fires with cans. When we got to 11, there was just too much smoke and we decided that, without water, if we went any higher, we’d be on a fool’s mission...

Weindler most likely used stairwells to reach the 11th floor showing that there were means of escape from the building, but due to damage, smoke, and personal fear Jennings and Hess may not have been able to find them.

I don't believe Jennings was outright lying. But I do believe his statements have been overexaggerated and misconstrued by people to fit their version of events.

To all those people that seem to think the collapse of the towers/fires caused building 7 to collapse, symmetrically, into it's own footprint at freefall speed... What about the FACT that no fire has EVER made a steel framed building collapse, yet on 9/11 there was a world 1st, three times in one day!

Does this very fact not raise alarm bells? I'd love to hear your explanations!

Originally posted by 4hero
To all those people that seem to think the collapse of the towers/fires caused building 7 to collapse, symmetrically, into it's own footprint at freefall speed... What about the FACT that no fire has EVER made a steel framed building collapse, yet on 9/11 there was a world 1st, three times in one day!

Does this very fact not raise alarm bells? I'd love to hear your explanations!

Does the fact that you make false claims raise any alarm bells?

As I understand it, the collapse was due to a combination of structural damage caused by falling debris and resulting damage from the fires. The modifications made to the building also were said to have compromised the integrity in light of the damage caused.

While many may or may not agree with that assertation, claiming that the buildings collapsed into their own footprint at freefall speed because of fire is just plain false.

The same holds true for the towers themselves. You can retract your claim that fire alone caused 3 buildings to fall that day. That is just not the case. The official stance is structural damage exacerbated by the fires caused the collapse.

Congratulation everyone on derailing this thread entirely by discussing what I asked to negate at the beginning of this thread, as this is well covered / heavily beaten ground on other threads.

The point of creating this thread was to highlight the fact that Barry never changed his story, which was contrary to the offical story and he's not around to tell it anymore. Mr Hess later changed his story to fit in with the official story and he's alive and well and making a mint working for Gulianni and his new security firm.

Now we're back on topic, I made this thread to document my suspicions and for others to discuss if they find these changes in account suspicious. I've done a little bit more digging and I honestly had no idea how many other individuals whos account is contrary to the official story, have met a potentially untimely demise.



The more "coincidence" that is presented, the less the official story seems plausable.

A rhetorical question for everyone to ponder. How much "coincidence" does it take before you admit to doubt.

Put a gun to my head an tell me I have to choose either the eye witnesses of that day or the media reports in the days that followed, I would be inclined more to believe eye-witnesses for one reason and one reason alone.

Eye-witnesses have no reason to lie.

reply to post by skunkmunky


I didn't realize the thread was derailed by detailing the fallacies of Mr. Jennings story.

But, maybe you should research the credibility of eye witness testimony and how often it is pointed out to be inaccurate.

So what if he never changed his story, it doesn't make his story any less wrong. I cannot for the life of me understand why one persons erroneous perception trumps 100's of other stories that point out that his story is infact erroneous.

Mr. Hess likely changed his story for the same reason I have changed my own stories in regards to things I've seen. He carefully analyzed the situation and realized he may have been wrong about something. Oh man, that guy with human qualities is a real POS isn't he.

I have shown in this thread how his story cannot be true. Many people who were present inside building 7 make absolutely no mention of explosions inside building 7.

I'm going to use an analogy I heard somewhere else, plenty of people described the sound of the towers collapsing to be like a train, does that mean there was actually a train pushing the building down? Or that was their perception of the sound? The same holds true for Mr. Jennings story. Just because the impact of tons of flaming debris impacting the building he was in seemed like an explosion, does not infact make it so, that was just how he perceived the events to be.

You can continue to ignore the evidence, and the eyewitness testimony from 100's of people, or you can continue to base your logical fallacies on the misconstrued perception of 1 individual. In my opinion, the opinion of the 100's of people who make no mention of explosions outweigh the 1 guy who thought what he went through was the result of one, or seemed like one.

I'm sure you see it otherwise though.

soo.. he shows up to a burning building... that's being evacuated by the police.. figures its ok to jump on the elevator to go to his office... which he doesn't have a key for... gets back on the elevator, to go find someone with a key.. then finds a guy to let him on the freight elevator, which apparently gos directly to his office... so he can use the phone?? at this point he cant use ether elevator that he used 5 mins ago.. so he hits the stairwell??
im having a hard time believing any of it.. to be honest with you...

Originally posted by uggghhh
soo.. he shows up to a burning building... that's being evacuated by the police.. figures its ok to jump on the elevator to go to his office... which he doesn't have a key for... gets back on the elevator, to go find someone with a key.. then finds a guy to let him on the freight elevator, which apparently gos directly to his office... so he can use the phone?? at this point he cant use ether elevator that he used 5 mins ago.. so he hits the stairwell??
im having a hard time believing any of it.. to be honest with you...

He was in the building before WTC 1 collapsed. He found his way up to the 23rd floor, had to go back down and got the freight elevator back up because the 23rd floor was locked. Once they were there, the place was empty. From my research, I can say with some confidence that there might have been no windows on the 23rd floor. WTC 2 collapsed, and the power went out. When they tried to access the elevator again, it wouldn't work, so Hess found a staircase, and they started going down (because they had called some people and were told to get the heck out of there). Jennings said they were going fairly slow down the stairs, as he had bad knees. Once they hit the 6th floor, the stairway became inaccessible by an explosion. Hess described it as smoke, rumbling, etc. along with the emergency lights going out, so it was pitch black. Jennings said that the lights went out and he found himself hanging off the edge of the stairs from an explosion blowing out the staircase below them.

They went back up to the 8th floor, broke a window on the North side and started calling for help. Jennings interpreted the firefighters coming and going as the towers collapsing, but Hess's description of the air after they broke the window seems to suggest that the buildings had already collapsed. They both thought in their minds that the towers were there, but they couldn't see in that direction. So, logically, the towers had collapsed, and they were mistaken. Only Hess came to terms with that. Jennings still seemed to have thought that the towers were standing at that time.

reply to post by Varemia


thanks for taking the time to reply...
im kinda trying to figure out what went on before all that... was he in the building before it caught fire? before the fire alarms went off and they started to evacuate the building? if so what floor was he on? why he would go up to the 23rd in a a burning building, especially in an elevator, clearly stairs are the things to used in a fire situation... what time did he place his call? their must be a record of that at least..... i know its not the meat and potatoes of his story, something doesn't feel right about the story, to me anyways... i just know what i would do in a fire.... jumping into the elevator and heading up to the fire isnt one of them...