Answering Questions At The Gate

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Hydroman

 

What about his grace for the angels? Why is there none?

Because "fallen angels" is a myth.
Ask someone who believes in this idea, what their sources are for it, and you get things like Revelation, Jude, 2 Peter, 2 Thessalonians, or worse, like Enoch. None of these things are reliable witnesses for actual history and are at best metaphorical, and on the other end of the scale, pure forgery.

You are incorrect. many other religions also accept 'fallen angels' as truth,not legend. Other religions actually worship these fallen angels as their gods/godesses. Do some research. Check your history books from the public library. It is not that hard.

Some NON Christian sources of fallen angels (as you have only listed verses of the Holy bible) are ........

1. The satanic bible - alister crowely
2. The necronomicon - john dee
3. The writings of jack parsons
4. hp lovecrafts' works
5. The abremilin
6. the key of solomon - king solomon
7. the lesser key of solomon
8. book of wamphry and shadows
9. the book of giants - found amongst the dead sea scrolls (which confirms the book of Enoch)
10. the genesis apocryphon



Just to name a few. (The first ones that popped into my head).


Here is just ONE link to another source that IS NOT CHRISTIAN that accepts the "myth" of fallen angels.

www.angelsghosts.com...

The evidence heavily outways your opinion.

reply to post by 1king2rulethemall
I think you just help support my point, which is fallen angels is not Christian, but non-christian myths tacked on to Christianity, artificially.
There is a reference to Satan falling like lightning, by Jesus, but it is more metaphorical, in my opinion, and it represents man overcoming nature as in the "natural man" and becoming more noble by virtue of superior ethics.

I have a question for you, which is off-topic but your user name suggests to me that you may know the answer. Is Sauron the ultimate evil power, or is there a higher order power that he was only able to tap into?
Oops, I just looked it up in Wikipedia and it seems that "Melkor was the most powerful of the Ainur", which changes the question to: Where did the Ainur get their power? Or this is too esoteric for even the most hard core fan.
Oops, just followed a link and found out, "The Ainur are the immortal Spirits existing before Creation. . ."
Wow, pretty rough trying to overcome all that! I think there is virtue in defying it in the face of assuredly loosing, just my way of thinking. I think there is always a higher order of things and the ultimate would be more just than the lower, no matter how high they look to us now.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by 1king2rulethemall

I think you just help support my point, which is fallen angels is not Christian, but non-christian myths tacked on to Christianity, artificially.

You have just contradicted yourself friend. You stated before that fallen angels were a COMPLETE MYTH - PURE FORGERY.

Because "fallen angels" is a myth.
Ask someone who believes in this idea, what their sources are for it, and you get things like Revelation, Jude, 2 Peter, 2 Thessalonians, or worse, like Enoch. None of these things are reliable witnesses for actual history and are at best metaphorical, and on the other end of the scale, pure forgery.

Now you have changed your mind and only classified them as "Christian" myth. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

fallen angels is not Christian, but non-christian myths tacked on to Christianity, artificially.

Which is it - myth or truth?

There is a reference to Satan falling like lightning, by Jesus, but it is more metaphorical, in my opinion, and it represents man overcoming nature as in the "natural man" and becoming more noble by virtue of superior ethics.

In your opinion? May I suggest that we both leave our opinions out of the discussion and deal primarily with facts.
There is more than one reference to satan made by Jesus. Jesus talks about satan and hell quite a lot during His ministry on earth, and the Holy Spirit reveals much about satan to the disciples after Jesus was murdered and rose from the grave and ascended to Heaven.

As for your question regarding 'The Lord of The Rings' - I suggest you re-read my user name friend. It is NOT quite as it first seems !

edit on 16-10-2011 by 1king2rulethemall because: Sorry - haven't quite figured out how to use the quote function.

Originally posted by 1king2rulethemall
You have been told the answers to your questions/accusations before - many,many times.

Have I?

Originally posted by 1king2rulethemall
Weren't you a Christian for over twenty years yourself? As you have claimed?

Yes, what does that have to do with anything?

Originally posted by 1king2rulethemall
You have made your choice already. You already know the consequences for your choice.

Well, I know what YOU and other christians believe will happen. I also know what Muslims believe will happen to me, as well as Jehovah's Witnesses and Hindus. Not too sure about what the Mormons think. Who is right? Any of you?

Originally posted by 1king2rulethemall
You are like a fisherman. You sit there still and waiting, with bait on your hook - waiting for someone to take a bite.

I will not bite.

I'm here for discussion about beliefs. That's all. You don't have to be so dramatic.

Btw, aren't you supposed to be the fisherman?

reply to post by mathematic


Hm. This would be my response: Forgive me Father for i have sinned when i have known better. There are no excuses, for my Father is just in his judgement. In a material world where everything is perishable, so are my sins because Jesus Christ has died for my sins, died, and rose again. only the Lord knows the nature of my heart and i will be obedient to his will, whether it be to praise his glorious name for eternity in heaven or burning in hell.

To be honest... i can't wait for eternal life in heaven, i look forward to death. And no, not in a suicidal way so don't twist my words to make me a crazed idiot i mean... i can't wait to be able to walk along aside my mother and Jesus Christ, asking all the questions i have had during my time on earth.

Originally posted by DelayedChristmas
.. i can't wait to be able to walk along aside my mother and Jesus Christ, asking all the questions i have had during my time on earth.

If you have a personal relationship with Jesus, why not ask him now?

reply to post by 1king2rulethemall

In your opinion? May I suggest that we both leave our opinions out of the discussion and deal primarily with facts.

No need for forums such as this, then.
Just go to Wikipedia or something and read the facts.

reply to post by Hydroman

Originally posted by 1king2rulethemall
Weren't you a Christian for over twenty years yourself? As you have claimed?
Yes, what does that have to do with anything?

Then you should already know the truth friend. Truth remains truth whether we believe it or not. Truth can not change - does not change - even if our minds do.
You should already know the irrefutable, overwhelming evidence that supports the authenticity of the Holy Bible.
You should already know the accurate, historical evidence of Jesus Christ and His ministry.
You should already know the historical facts about His crucifixion, burial and resurrection.
You should already know about the accurate ancient history of the nation Israel and it's people.
You should already know about the accuracy of human history as outlined in the Holy Bible.
You should already know about the accuracy of the hundreds of prophecies that have been fulfilled from the New Testament alone throughout the history of mankind.
You should already know about how the whole wide world was changed forever by the ministry of Jesus Christ.
You should already know that there is more literature about Jesus Christ than any other person in human history.
You should already know that the more science discovers - the more it points to intelligent design.

You should already know that Jesus loves you.

It has a LOT to do with anything, my friend.

Originally posted by 1king2rulethemall
You should already know that Jesus loves you.

It is not about people knowing Jesus loves them. Why is this so hard to understand?

Why doesn't this Brother know YOU love him like Christ did?

# people! Wake up!

With Love,

Your Brother

reply to post by Hydroman


hm i think i should wait till i pass away from this earth for the answers to my questions... explanation of the history of the world might take a while but thankfully time isnt a factor when you have eternal life in heaven

reply to post by 1king2rulethemall
I am a Christian and have been for fifty something years and I don't "know" most of those things you have listed, as a "fact". I don't think that is what Christianity is, believing in a whole bunch of stuff that would be nice for people to believe if you owned a church and were getting payed for the work you did in your church.

It is not about people knowing Jesus loves them. Why is this so hard to understand?

Why doesn't this Brother know YOU love him like Christ did?

# people! Wake up!

With Love,

Your Brother

reply to post by IAMIAM


I do love him - that is why I am telling him the truth.
But whether he knows if I love him or not, I can't save him - ONLY JESUS CAN SAVE HIM !. So it is VITALLY important that people know that Jesus loves them and that Jesus died for them and took their sins from them, and rose from the dead to offer them eternal life. VITALLY IMPORTANT !

PS. I do tell you these things out of love and concern Hydroman! (if that was an issue).

Originally posted by OldCorp
reply to post by mathematic

 

I'll tell St. Peter that ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God; and then remind him that Christ paid the price for me already.

That's when I'll look up from the gates made of pearls and gaze into the distance at all of the mansions made of gold, and then I'll ask him a question.

"Which one's mine homie?"

Really? Do you have that "warranty" on paper or something? Maybe a letter signed from God himself where he guarantees you that?

Arrogance par exellence ...

And they say, "Never will the Fire touch us, except for a few days." Say, "Have you taken a covenant with God ? For God will never break His covenant. Or do you say about God that which you do not know?" - Qur'an, 2:80

Convenient isn't it? So, "Jesus paid the price for you" and the Heaven is now "guaranteed" for you?

Hitler also believed in Jesus ...

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by 1king2rulethemall

 

I am a Christian and have been for fifty something years and I don't "know" most of those things you have listed, as a "fact". I don't think that is what Christianity is, believing in a whole bunch of stuff that would be nice for people to believe if you owned a church and were getting payed for the work you did in your church.

You are correct - that is not what Christianity IS.
CHRISTIANITY IS A PERSONAL, INTIMATE RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS CHRIST, THROUGH FAITH BY THE HOLY SPIRIT !
Those other things are just some basic facts that support the reality and authenticity of Christianity for believers/unbelievers alike.
If you doubt the bible as truth/authentic, or doubt the Deity of Jesus Christ, or His death, burial, resurrection or doubt God as creator, or doubt that a spiritual realm exists, or doubt a Heaven and hell, or doubt angels and demons are real - investigate some of the points that I listed and from the results that you find decide for yourself.
Don't take my word for it - investigate those things for yourself, thoroughly - you may learn some things that you didn't know.

Peace be with you, friends.

reply to post by 1king2rulethemall
A very unappealing presentation, to me,
and what was the purpose of all that,
to make someone feel bad?
It just seems sad to me that you have to make belief
into some sort of scholastic discipline.
If you were actually a Christian, you would be talking about
how to overcome sin and be a good person to be presentable to God.
He cares not one shred for all your "facts".

reply to post by jmdewey60


I am sorry if I have upset you friend (or anyone for that matter). That was certainly NOT my intention at all. I am no better than anyone else. I think you may have mis-interperated my post though. If you go back through this thread you should be able to see that I haven't tried to be-little, be-rate, put down, insult, or condemn anyone. I truely have tried to keep my personal opinions and prejudices out of all of my comments as I have mentioned to you before in an earlier post. Once again , sorry if I have failed to do so.

The point that I was trying to get across by listing those facets (or presentation as you put it ) was not to appear smarter or more clever, or more righteous than anyone else, but to highlight some very basic and "non biblical" sources of proof that help to support the authenticity of the scriptures as the inspired Word Of GOD.
It was not my desire to make anybody feel bad.

I was sure that every Bible believing Christ centred Christian would know about all of those historical evidences. The person whom I posted that reply to has said before that they had had faith for twenty years - I assumed that he would know all of those things and therefore I couldn't understand the type of simplistic questions and arguments that he was putting forward. To me they seemed very antagonistic. That is why I questioned him about that specifically and listed those proofs. I was not trying to outsmart him.

I was not trying to make him feel bad either. My apologies if I did. I was not trying to make out Christianity to be scholastic (religious). Christianity IS NOT A RELIGION !!!!!!! It is a relationship with the One True GOD.

If you were actually a Christian, you would be talking about
how to overcome sin and be a good person to be presentable to God.
He cares not one shred for all your "facts".

My friend if you go back through this whole thread you should see that that is exactly what my goal has been - The Gospel of Jesus Christ and His saving grace - by presenting biblical facts (and leaving out personal opinions). I have even tried to NOT use too many Bible verses because people get really offended when they are confronted with answers to their arguments with scripture. ( I never quoted any verses to you in regards to fallen angels).

A very unappealing presentation, to me,

Haven't you, in your 50 years of Christianity, ever had to defend your faith with someone who doesn't agree with you ? With someone who says that the Holy Bible was just a book written by man ? Or that Jesus isn't GOD ? Or that He didn't raise from the dead ? Or that there is no heaven or hell - or satan and demons ?
I have had to defend my faith constantly - and I have been a Christian for well short of 50 years. People don't want you quoting scripture to them, so these other evidences also help to support the truth about Jesus Christ. The evidence is irrefutable. I would have thought them to be well known.
Since becoming a faithful Christian I have gone out of my way to research and discover as much about Jesus Christ as I possibly could. I have even browsed through the enemies literature as well to better understand his approach to Jesus Christ.

I am not saying these things to make you or anyone feel bad, or make myself out to be better than anyone, or more learned, or superior in any way. I am just telling you that my faith in Jesus drives me to know as much about Him and get as close as possible to Him because He is my Lord and Saviour and He loves me so much that He chose to die and go to hell SO THAT I DIDN"T HAVE TOO !!!!!!!!!

Again friend, my sincerest apologies if I upset you.

Be blessed.

reply to post by 1king2rulethemall
I expect to be abused so quote scripture to me all you want or criticize my posts as right you should.
I should be kept to a higher standard, since I act like I think I know something and things I want to pass on.
Hydroman is someone who takes a lot of abuse for asking questions and being at all harsh to him does not seem appropriate and when I see people do it, it does not set well with me and makes me wonder if he is just proving a point, that he did the right thing to pull away from church and the belief that goes with it, since that was the very thing that drove him off in the first place.

Originally posted by 1king2rulethemall
PS. I do tell you these things out of love and concern Hydroman! (if that was an issue).

Not an issue at all. I understand that you believe you have the truth. So does everyone else of every other belief system. They all have ways of backing up their claims. Doesn't mean they are all true.

I see that you believe you have a personal, intimate relationship with Jesus Christ, creator of the universe. Am I correct on that? If so, you shouldn't have any problem whatsover giving me correct answers to some questions I might have, since you can ask him and he would be able to clearly and concisely give you the answers I seek, as you have a personal, intimate relationship with him?