Could this be the real reason why Israel was re-established?

Most christians see "prophecy" being fulfilled with the formation of the modern state of Israel in 1948.
While its partly true, the exact reason for this prophetic gathering of the people who are seen as "Israelites", is not very clear.

Most christians who subscribe to the belief that Israel is "Gods chosen" , confidently hold that the modern day state of Israel is on Gods side, which would emerge victorious over its enemies... the neighbouring Arab states who they believe are on the side of evil.

This in turn, has led to a culture of bigotry/partiality among christians, demonizing one group (the muslims) who openly accept Jesus as the messiah, while unconditionally supporting another group(Jews) who openly reject and insult the messiah. How valid is this behaviour?

This thread will try and explore a few things pertaining to Israel at the end times.
Why exactly have the jews been gathered in one place? A place which today is a flashpoint for conflict between the muslim world and the christian world.

A closer reading of several prophetic passages reveal a few things which are radically different from the typical pro-Jewish view of the middle east held by most christians.

Son of man, the house of Israel is to me become dross: all they are brass, and tin, and iron, and lead, in the midst of the furnace; they are even the dross of silver. As they gather silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, into the midst of the furnace, to blow the fire upon it, to melt it; so will I gather you in mine anger and in my fury, and I will leave you there, and melt you. Yea, I will gather you, and blow upon you in the fire of my wrath, and ye shall be melted in the midst therof. As silver is melted in the midst of the furnace, so shall ye be melted in the midst thereof; and ye shall know that I the LORD have poured out my fury upon you. - Ezekiel 22:19-22

We see that the real reason for Israels establishment is not exactly a good thing for the Jews.
In the same book of Ezekiel, (which christians quote as "prophecy" of Israels rebirth), we see that they are being gathered again... for judgement and punishment.


The scenario of the modern state of Israel being on the recieving end of Gods wrath has huge implications for christians, who I feel may need to start rethinking who they align themselves with.

Now, one might feel tempted to counter this point by merely bringing up passages that point towards passages that they interpret as prophecizing the destruction of Arab/Muslim states. Yes, muslim states will also face punishment...but please consider the part in Isaiah where we read that Israel will be "a third with Egypt and Assyria", which are both modern day muslim regions.

How ironic that Israel is placed on the same level with muslim countries, by God.... and not with christian countries... as christians might have wanted it.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


What? Muslims accept Jesus as the messiah?

News to me.

reply to post by LightAssassin


Yep but he is only as powerful as Morpheus in the matrix. Muhammad is more like Neo.

reply to post by staple


Seriously?

If thats the case why are muslim nations executing people who change religion, or aren't from their religion?

What a strange world we live in.

Originally posted by LightAssassin
reply to post by staple

 

Seriously?

If thats the case why are muslim nations executing people who change religion, or aren't from their religion?

What a strange world we live in.

What the hell? Either i'm still sleepy or none of this is making sense.

reply to post by Heartisblack


I know, I'm confused too. I cannot understand why then they will execute someone changing from Muslim to Christian.

reply to post by LightAssassin

Yep. Higher than Muhammad.
Quran has a whole chapter on his mum - Mary.

Abu Hurairah reported Allah's Messenger (PBUH) as saying," By Him in whose hand my soul is, the son of Mary will soon descend among you as a just judge. ..."

He even made a covenant with the christians (and a copy of it should be in every mosque and Christian church to remind them all of it). The original is in Turkey.

Jesus in Islam

Muhammads Charter to the Christians

This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them.
Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them.
No compulsion is to be on them.
Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries.
No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims' houses.
Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God's covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate.
No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight.
The Muslims are to fight for them.
If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray.
Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants.
No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world).

Originally posted by LightAssassin
reply to post by staple

 

Seriously?

If thats the case why are muslim nations executing people who change religion, or aren't from their religion?

What a strange world we live in.

No different than the christians who have never actually read the bible thouroughly.
If they all actually researched their religion fully, they may take different views.

The majority of so-called bad things in the quran, are quite often ended with "...but it is better for you to forgive them". But people from both sides leave that part off for their own motives.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


That quote in green is interesting indeed.

I have often wondered why in the Torah/Tanach/Old Testiment there are countless stories of the Jews "hardening their hearts" and turning away from God...
He gives them a zap,
and they run back to him.
Then,
when they kill his only son...
I am wondering why he didn't say "that's it! convenant over! you have just condemned yourselves to hell".
Maybe he did and it just didn't make the cut into the first edition(s).

reply to post by CitizenNum287119327


Its hard to imagine the jews discard millenia of denying of Jesus, then make a 180 degree turn and join christians and muslims in accepting him as the messiah... when he returns. There wont be time for that because the christians believe Jesus would suddenly return in a blaze of glory destroying everything in his way.

My point is that christians may need to start reviewing their approach to studying end times events. It is not logical to hold that entire countries would be destroyed for merely opposing Israel, while Israel, a country that is guilty of rejecting Jesus (and is accused of killing prophets) would emerge victorious.


Many christians think that the modern day state of Israel is the restored OT era Israel,when in reality, it is a secular state on the lines of America. Much like America and other "christian" countries...Jews have been known to mock the messiah on their TV channels... (whereas muslim countries .... the "supposed" bad guys of the end times, will never allow for such a thing... because they take their religon way too seriously and anyone mocking religious figures would be in trouble.)

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


The whole Zionist idea does make sense to me. If you read the Old Testament (which is also part of the Torah) you will see that Israel was not initially the Jewish homeland. They migrated there and killed off any if not all that stood in their way.

God told Ezekiel that the reason He was going to bring the state of Israel back was not for the Jews but for His name's sake. Jesus called the Jews the synagog of Satan and that they claimed to be Jews but were not.

However, the average christian doesn't have a clue and blindly backs Israel because they believe they [the Jews] are God"s "chosen" people. The chosen part ended a long time ago. They also believe that they follow the Torah, wrong again, they follow the Talmud and the Kabbalah. This they were doing when Jesus was walking the earth, nothing has changed. Jesus called them out on their evil ways and they [the Jewish leaders] decided they needed to kill him. I guess people need to figure out which side of the fence they are on.

has led to a culture of bigotry/partiality among christians, demonizing one group (the muslims) who openly accept Jesus as the messiah

No they don't, they accept Jesus as a prophet of Allah, the same as Abraham, Moses and Mohammed. All prophets are equal in Islam. Mohammed isn't "Neo" to Jesus's "Morpheus". They are all of equal stature.

If thats the case why are muslim nations executing people who change religion, or aren't from their religion?

They don't do that either. In fact one of the Saudi Kings top advisors is Christian. You've been listening to too much anti-muslim rhetoric. (shut off Fox news)

reply to post by damwel

No they don't, they accept Jesus as a prophet of Allah, the same as Abraham, Moses and Mohammed. All prophets are equal in Islam.

Wrong.
Jesus, while being a prophet.... also has the title of al-masih (the messiah). No other prophet has this title.

While Islam views all prophets as "equal" in terms of their mission... Jesus is different, in the sense that he was born of a virgin, has that title.. and will return to defeat the anti-christ.

Sounds famiiar?

Jewish-occupied Palestine, calling itself Israel [a name they had no right to - it should have been named Judah] was set up by Masonic forces in order to trigger World War III, destroy Muslims, Christians, Jews, and set up their NWO world government. It is all laid out in Albert Pike's letter to Mazzini (easily found on the www) from 1881 or thereabouts. This letter was written so early in the game, that the terminology used was different from that which we are accustomed to, but it lays out recent history very neatly, almost prophetically. All ATS members should be familiar with this document.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


A very great thread of yours.

Thank you for sharing your knowledge.

which are both modern day Muslim regions.

I think that some Muslims deserve to be punished. Specially the ones who knew what the prophet (pbuh) was a testate. But they ignored it. They were not good trustees. They betrayed both Islam and Muhammad.

As you know , when Mahdi arrives , it appears that he is bringing a new religion-other than Islam. This is why it appears like that. They were not trustworthy trustees and they have changed the religion and betrayed their own prophet.


Can you introduce me some online sources to study about Christianity ?
I would appreciate that.

Jews have been known to mock the messiah on their TV channels

More clues ?



I want to put this thread in my signature , if you let me ?

reply to post by CitizenNum287119327

The majority of so-called bad things in the quran, are quite often ended with "

Yes . Some times , there are much hardly-provable conditions to reach attainability.

And there are ways to deny it as an accusation.

Like stoning.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

We see that the real reason for Israels establishment is not exactly a good thing for the Jews.

Pthena has some commentary on Ezekiel, which is, if I get it right, that it is a book made to excuse Yahweh for the destruction of Israel, and to not make it look like he is weak, but that the people are undeserving of salvation, even if they repented and became righteous, he would allow them to be killed and scattered, anyway, on account of some past sin of their ancestors, thus overturning all earlier convention, just for the sake of the name, and to hell with the people. Is that the god you want?

reply to post by hmdphantom

I think that some Muslims deserve to be punished. Specially the ones who knew what the prophet (pbuh) was a testate. But they ignored it. They were not good trustees. They betrayed both Islam and Muhammad.

From the little that I have read, its my understanding that everybody has a price to pay at the time of the end, as far as events in the world goes. I guess every nation will taste either war, natural disaster, plagues etc.
I will not say that muslims are exempted from this, just because they are muslims.

Can you introduce me some online sources to study about Christianity ?
I would appreciate that.

Study what about christianity? If its christian eschatology you are asking about... you will find a number of varying interpretations/commentary of it.
Honestly, It is best if you start by reading up on christian threads here on ATS... or lurk at the many christian related websites and read their threads.
If its the basics of christianity that you want, start with wikipedia and follow the links there.


And no problem with you putting this thread in your signature.

reply to post by jmdewey60


As far as my posts on ATS go, I guess my method of understanding things involving eschatology is to gather all cliches of fundamentalist christians : "the jews are chosen", "Israel is a nation on Gods side", "Muslim nations are evil allied with Gog and Magog", "jews will be saved"etc. then compare it to whats actually there in the bible. Most of the time, its the opposite thats true.
I use the bible to frame my cases because I want the fundamentalist christians (who parrot the above mentioned cliches) here to read my posts and start questioning what they have been told or think they know.
This ,might explain the nature of my threads here.

As far as understanding prophecy goes, I will not claim that I am 100% right 100% of the time. I am open to the possibility, that I could be wrong.

Off topic : I did have a dream that Gadaffi was killed. In the dread, I vaguely remember seeing an empty road in Libya, I guess, with a news ticker at the bottom saying that Gaddaffi had been killed. Funny thing is, I was not even very interested in the Libyan clashes at that time. But the next day I was almost tempted to make a thread about it, but stopped because I did not want to be one of those guys with a failed prediction on their records. And a few weeks later Gadaffi was indeed killed in Libya.