Lisa Irwin - Missing - One Year Later

reply to post by Xcathdra


Ahh, I see, thanks! No, can't say anything 100% in this case. Can't do that at all.

Thanks also for the added info on the polygraph

reply to post by schmae


shmae, I was just poking around looking for other stories about missing babies, and came across that one.

I also came across one regarding a couple whose infant daughter vanished in 1997. They talked to media two weeks after Lisa's disappearance about their own case. Also a former FBI special agent discussed the issue.

Missing Babies: Steve and Marlene Aisenberg Offer Support to Lisa Irwin's Parents

A baby girl goes down for a night's sleep. The next morning she's gone, her parents say. No unusual sounds had awoken anyone in the house. There is no damning evidence of break-in and abduction.

And the parents, initially given sympathy and support, are increasingly viewed with suspicion.

Lisa Irwin, the girl who disappeared two weeks ago in Kansas City, Mo.? Yes, but the scenario also applies to Sabrina Aisenberg, the four-month-old girl her parents said was stolen from her crib in November 1997, in Valrico, Fla..

AND a really bizarre story out of Nigeria about a church priestess who was apparently buying/stealing babies...
claiming she had given birth to seven at one month-intervals in one year. And people apparently believed her! Really makes ya wonder. They apparently don't have firm laws against human trafficking, from what I gathered (the English is a bit "off" to my ears)

Miracle birth woman: Three babies still missing

On December 2, 2011 · In News
The striking story of Precious Donatus Ogbonna, the miracle birth woman is becoming very endless. In a quick rehash, Precious Donatus Ogbonna, the General overseer of Christ Salvation Ministry, Owerri, claimed she had seven babies in one year, each within a space of one month.

A DNA was sponsored by Vanguard and there came the revelation: Precious Ogbonna was not the biological mother of the babies. Where did she get the babies from? Investigations conducted and several homes where phantom deliveries take place were discovered including the places she claimed she had the babies.

All kinds of madness. Alarming stuff. Can't wrap my head around such behavior, which I guess is why it never stops fascinating me...

reply to post by Xcathdra

To speculate on deb announcing the polygraph -
For her to come out and say it could be a deception technique. Until the police confirm / deny her statement, it allows her to continue the game of the police are concentrating on me instead of finding the missing baby. I have seen and read about cases where an innocent person has gone down the road of misleading investigators to make it look like they are guilty when in reality they are protecting someone.

As we can see it can be difficult investigating these types of crimes.

^^Understatement!! Sheesh no kidding!

Here's a snip from the Aisenberg story:

If as a missing-baby drama unfolds parents are cast in conflicting roles -- victims and suspects -- so are police. They are uniquely equipped and empowered to both find the missing child and solve the mystery of its disappearance, which can mean being helpful to and suspicious of the parents.

Lisa Irwin 'Probably Not' Abducted by Stranger, Says ex-FBI Agent

Brad Garrett, a former FBI special agent and a consultant to ABC News, said the first decision police face is whether they can eliminate the parents from suspicion. "Sometimes there's not a clear line you can draw," he said.

In these cases what ensues, he said, is "a delicate balance to push parents to tell the truth while not alienating them so they stop cooperating." The key is "good cop-bad cop," a perfect illustration of the aforementioned dual role. One detective stays at the parents' side, protecting them. Another challenges and provokes them. Then they compare notes and look for lies and inconsistencies.

"[The police] don't like doing that; they just have to do it when there's no evidence [leading elsewhere]," Garrett said.

In a recent interview with "Good Morning America" Garrett called police's focus on Irwin's parents "logical." He said Lisa was "probably not" abducted by a stranger -- "statistically and otherwise, it doesn't really fit" -- but an acquaintance, plumber, neighbor or babysitter was more plausible.

Garrett said sometimes missing-baby cases happen when the baby dies by accident and the parent or parents panic and dispose of the body. Usually the disposal is shoddy and the body is found fairly quickly. Therefore, the fact that Lisa is still missing makes it less likely that, if she is dead, she died accidentally, he noted.

Originally posted by wildtimes
shmae, I was just poking around looking for other stories about missing babies, and came across that one.

National Center for Missing and Exploited Children

America's Most Wanted


Bureau of Justice Statistics

reply to post by wildtimes


Question - We know by media / statements from mom/police that the last time lisa was seen was that night. Does it talk anywhere about pinning the time-line? Reason I ask is to explore the possibility the child may have gone missing prior to the day it was reported?

reply to post by Xcathdra


'''I have seen and read about cases where an innocent person has gone down the road of misleading investigators to make it look like they are guilty when in reality they are protecting someone. ''''

This is very interesting... a suspect might make themself look MORE guilty to keep police from looking at the truly guilty party, like a family member, lover, child , etc.?

Originally posted by schmae
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

'''I have seen and read about cases where an innocent person has gone down the road of misleading investigators to make it look like they are guilty when in reality they are protecting someone. ''''

This is very interesting... a suspect might make themself look MORE guilty to keep police from looking at the truly guilty party, like a family member, lover, child , etc.?

Correct.. As we can see in this case we know a child is missing, the parents are acting suspicious and the Police and FBI have no leads. As an example look at the phones -

First they were stolen
Then they weren't
Then they weren't active because of payments
Then they find the phones and see a call was made

All highly suspicious and when taken together paints a picture over a picture.

Its speculation and nothing more, but a direction to possibly look at.

Has anyone found confirmation about the Uncle refusing the poly test?

reply to post by Xcathdra


We've beat that horse to death, X. It's actually still a valid question because........... as far as I know the only NON family member witness to seeing Lisa that night is the neighbor Samatha Brandos' 4 year old daughter. Four year old said she saw Lisa. It's unclear whether she saw her alive and talking and wandring about or if she saw her l aying in her bed 'asleep'( i believe it is the latter , but not100%).
Other than Deb/Jer/the 2 brothers, the last INDEPENDANT sighting of Lisa was the previous DAY at a family birthday party for someone else at another family member's home. There are pictures of her at that party so she was alive and well at that time. But come Monday afternoon, things do get sort of murky. The neighbor Samantha ate dinner with her ( by debs account) and drank with her on the stoop. We do not know if Samantha ever saw Lisa or not. She is not talking. Hopefully she h as told police what she saw. But the fact that her 4 year old DID see Lisa makes me inclined to think that Samantha herself did NOT see Lisa. Why offer up a 4 year olds sighting when an adult saw the same thing? So yes there are some unknowns about the last time Lisa was seen alive by someone otehr than a family member.

Originally posted by schmae
But the fact that her 4 year old DID see Lisa makes me inclined to think that Samantha herself did NOT see Lisa. Why offer up a 4 year olds sighting when an adult saw the same thing? So yes there are some unknowns about the last time Lisa was seen alive by someone otehr than a family member.

Hmmm...

Thats a problem.

www.cbsnews.com...

TIMELINE

www.ibtimes.com...

More Timeline

I looked at tons of pages just now claiming the 4 yr old played with the ' brothers' NOT LISA that night and that the 4 yr old remembers " deb putting Lisa to bed".

reply to post by schmae


I've re-read the time-line a few times now and something is jumping out at me.

There was a decent amount of foot traffic (adults / kids) up until 5pm. Thats when Jeremy left for work, and her brother left for home. Her neighbor shows up with her 4 year old daughter, who goes and plays with the boys. Neighbor runs to store to buy some more alcohol, and its during this time frame, when Deb was the only adult present in the house, she puts Lisa to bed?

*** Observation *** - If Deb put Lisa to bed at 06:40 pm, where was she prior to that? The neighbors daughter played with the boys, and the neighbor made no mention of seeing Lisa before she left to the store for the additional alcohol. If Lisa wasn't observed during these interactions, then where was she?

She then talks with neighbor on the front stoop smoking and drinking until about 10:30pm, at which point she goes to bed. The 2 boys also went to bed with deb, in her bed.

Jeremy comes home, front door unlocked, window open, lights on. He checked the boys room and one of the boys is in the top bunk? So at some point the boy got out of bed and went to this own? How many kids will wake up, crawl out of bed, and head to their own?

They didn't want the boys interviewed?

2 Possibilities (one already suggested but ill recap it) to consider on this hypothetical -


#A -
Maybe they were all in the places Deb stated at the times deb stated. What if Lisa woke up crying, and the older boy was sent to check on her crying by a cranky / intoxicated deb. What if there was an issue and the boy couldn't get deb to wake up. Maybe he took it upon himself to try and help Lisa, accidentally killing her? He goes and gets deb, she panics........


#B
Theory 2 - Again, everyone is where deb says they are and at the same times. Lisa is crying and Deb, still intoxicated, goes to check on her. Its during this check that something accidental occurs resulting in Lisa's death. Since Deb doesn't work, and Jeremy is holding down 2 jobs and cash flow is tight (we know this from the phones), their would be incentive for Deb to attempt to cover the accident up out of fear of -
#1 - Being charged with a crime
#2 - Losing her children
#3 - Facing the possibility that if Jeremy knew the truth it might spell the end of their relationship, and by extension cutting off Jeremy's revenue income that was paying for her and her children as well.


I have a few other theories but want some time to get all the info / facts / laws before posting it.


*** Observation *** Was there confirmation on the time Jeremy left work? He stayed later than usual? The stores are relatively small and they dont have the biggest menu. Why did he stay so late? Could it be possible he didn't work late? What if he came home long before 3:45 am, found the child dead and deb passed out and went into damage control mode. What if Jeremy disposed of the body and didn't make it back until 03:45 am? The areas that could be accessed in an hour or so could possibly put the Lisa way outside of KC.


*** Observation ***
I noticed that the accounts about Lisa's room door are identical. Since Jeremy was at work when Deb put Lisa to bed, he wouldn't know if the door was open or closed. She made it a point to note the door to Lisa's room was closed. Jeremy made it a point to say the doors were open except Lisa's. which was closed.

Its an unusual comment to make by 2 different people who weren't present with each other at the time.

Could the front door and the lights being on in the house be part of the possible diversion? The window screen being damaged and the window to the computer room being opened and somehow damaged to the extent it couldn't close?

One of the things law enforcement looks for in these types of situations, including burglaries, is to determine a point of entrance. Its possible when a person breaks into a house that damage can occur to the window / window sill while making entry or egress.

Again it looks like a choreographed play. This might be exactly why they wanted to interview both parents separately.

For 2 people who had no contact from 5pm to 0345am seem to have a interlocking story.

The above theory is based on the CBS time-line you linked.

reply to post by Xcathdra

#A -
Maybe they were all in the places Deb stated at the times deb stated. What if Lisa woke up crying, and the older boy was sent to check on her crying by a cranky / intoxicated deb. What if there was an issue and the boy couldn't get deb to wake up. Maybe he took it upon himself to try and help Lisa, accidentally killing her? He goes and gets deb, she panics........

Both those boys are old enough to respond to a cry from Lisa. If what Deb says is true? Her getting 'black out' drunk a 'couple a times a week'? You can bet your black boots those boys, those 'big boys' knew how to care for their little sister when she needed them and Mom wasn‘t around. (And that BREAKS MY HEART).

From there, it's always been my personal 'feeling/opinion' Deb was skunked, the boys were 'in and out' of her bed - per her report and passing by Lisa’s room, or hearing her call out? It's very possible (especially when viewing the height of the bed Lisa slept in) she was cranky and wanted her Mommy or her brothers, someone to love her when she felt so bad sick with her illness. She woke up crying and ‘someone‘ came in to help her with the best of intentions.

Whether that's one of her brothers or her mother? From that point something went terribly wrong.

If one of the boys was involved it would also make sense - the dog hit - on the floor by Deborah's bed. He brings her in to 'Mommy'. He’s crying. He knows instinctively ‘something is wrong’. Lisa touches the floor - for a little, for a while - we don’t know. Mom finally comes too, (if she wasn’t directly involved in the accident) and she freaks.

What happens then?

She calls Jeremy by instinct. Or her family, as was reported by a (supposed) family member. (The whole cell phone thing is confusing to me).

Point being.

Enter Jeremy. A good man. Home after a long day - his thoughts and senses are BEAT and he’s DEAD TIRED.

He gets home - the lights on, door unlocked and mayhem inside. He‘s confronted with a horrific situation (bless him) and does the only thing he knows to do. He walks around outside - with Lisa in his arms - to get away from the crying kids and Deborah. He walks around trying to clear his head ‘What the hell am I going to do!’...’I call the cops - I lose my fiance and kids. I loose MY BOY. The boy I fought for ‘viciously’.

And Lisa goes bye-bye in the river - along with the cell phones - not a third a mile away.

He goes home to 'fix' the screen, etc.

reply to post by Xcathdra


X, very early on , within a week probably, there surfaced video of Jeremy at work for all the hours he was supposed to be. He was inside a starbucks and had continuous surveillance of him th ere, so his hours AT work are verified. He normally did not work that late, in fact it was the first time, so that is a little odd. Who knew he had to work late? But it was an extra bit of work from his job because the starbucks needed some electrical stuff done and my " ASSUMPTION " here is that they needed it done after hours so they didn't have to interrupt customers while getting the work done. It's not unheard of in construction to have to do work when the business is closed for the night or on a weekend.

reply to post by schmae


Good deal - Thanks for that info.

Another interesting contradiction I found -

Deb blacked out and doesn't remember what happened (I dont suppose you have a link to this source).

She made this comment to the media -

Surveillance video at a nearby grocery store showed Bradley buying a box of wine at about 5pm on 3 October. Bradley told Today she drank enough to be drunk later that day, but insisted that her drinking does not mean she somehow hurt her daughter.

"If I thought there was a chance, I'd say it," Bradley said. "I don't think that alcohol changes a person enough to do something like that."

Which is it? Drank to the point of being blacked out, or not quite? How can she state she is sure she didn't harm Lisa if she cant remember what occurred?

The most confusing part of it for me are the conflicting reports that Deborah's brother was there and that he wasn't there.

I recall having an "aha!" reaction when there was speculation that he was fooling around with Samantha, whose husband had just moved out for a "trial separation" or something like that.

I don't think I've seen anything refuting that theory.

Also, the phone issue. I don't think they ever found the phones; they just got hold of the phone log records from the carrier. But apparently Deborah said they "weren't working" (due to non-payment and were on restricted service?)...and then the records showed that one of them HAD been working at least partially. Nowhere have I seen an indication that the phones were located, or that the carrier provided info on the service being "paid up" during that evening.

As far as our speculative theories:
I regard the accidental overdose of cold medicine as a possibility here. And one of the boys having discovered Lisa and brought her into mom's room. But if that were the case, I think the interview would have revealed that -- if that interviewer were skilled enough, she could have asked questions to draw that information out.

reply to post by wildtimes

I regard the accidental overdose of cold medicine as a possibility here. And one of the boys having discovered Lisa and brought her into mom's room. But if that were the case, I think the interview would have revealed that -- if that interviewer were skilled enough, she could have asked questions to draw that information out.

Agreed - but - if the parents know where Lisa is - even if the boys/boy 'gave up' info about her being 'gone' - I don't think the interviewer would 'tell' - cause isn't is just still hearsay and hearsay coming from a child against a parent? Or rather they 'told' the police, but that's as far as it went for obvious reasons.

Also, with no body (ugh I hate saying that) it's still all speculative (???) and they need (as Schmae pointed out to me earlier in my 'duh' moment) the parents on the 'outside' to possibly lead to a body.

Also I just read something - might have posted it here let me go look - that repudiated the parents did not ask the boys anything about their interview...

Just thinking aloud here.

reply to post by Xcathdra


This should lead you there if it's not the right o ne. I saw the interview with Megan Kelly, Deb said she drank more than 5 but less than 10 glasses of wine and acted quite indignant that it wasnt' really a big deal. She say she MAY have blacked out or probably blacked out, but not necessarily that she DID.

foxnewsinsider.com...

Sort of like I dont remember anything I was too drunk to remember, but she always remember which boy was sleeping in which bed, etc........so some of her memory remained intact during a 'blackout' where there is NO memory. One is not the case..........this is why I think maybe the blackedout story is a story to explain why she doesnt' know what happened.

reply to post by wildtimes


Good time to look up how long an accidental overdose of cold meds takes to cause death...........1 hour,,,,,, 6 hours ? If she had the cold med at 6:30 when she went to bed, might she have been dead by 10:30 when Deb looked ? Or could it have been several hours and no one knew she has passed away until 4 when Jeremy comes home?

There is one statement that bugs me,, that Jeremy called home at 10 or 11 to say he would NOT be coming home and had to work many more hours. Was that on the phones that don't work? Or did he maybe call Samanth's phone? It's a loose end, like so many others in this case.

''Kelly questioned one of the Irwin family's attorneys, John Picerno, who said Irwin had tried to call Bradley earlier in the evening to tell her that he was going to be late coming home from work and received a Verizon message indicating the phone was not in service.'''

So he only TRIED to call and did not actually speak toher. That clears it up .

www.examiner.com...

What if the call to megan writghts phone was a wrong number? Surely the police have tlooked to see if it's just one digit OFF from one of her friend of family's phone numbers.

reply to post by silo13


The attorney Picerno said that they all went out to McDonald's afterward, and that he told the parents not to ask any questions of the boys.

I recall we had a bit of a chat about that -- about kids needing their parents to listen to them and ask how they are doing, whether at school or meetings or whatever. In my opinion, Picerno's advice to them was remiss.

reply to post by schmae


Well, that is possible, but that means Jeremy knows good and well where Lisa was "put". He's an odd bloke, from what I've seen of him. Poor eye contact, flat affect...I can't tell if he's just naturally stoic, or what. Seems to be rather a quiet fellow, and supportive of Deborah. But I just don't get the feeling he knows anything. *perplexed*