What made you first suspect that these 9/11 conspiracy stories were false?

Originally posted by TWILITE22
reply to post by GoodOlDave

 

Jesus Dave have you lost your mind I'm showing you a video of the man you said heard explosions ABOVE him,which is in direct contradiction of what he said in this video???Your making me crazy Dave

I still have to wonder how he's sure that the explosion he felt above was the plane hitting a few seconds after his initial explosion.

I know that sound travels, and each floor was like 12 feet tall, so 12 times say 78 floors is 936 feet up. Now, in an ideal environment, sound will travel at around 1000 feet per second, but he had at least 75 floors between him and the impact. Being in the basement level, he was also surrounded by earth. The explosion from the jet fuel going down the elevators may have seemed to occur first due to sound delay. Or, there could have been delayed fuel explosions within lobbies as jet fuel went down them and fireballs erupted, blasting out the elevators.

Thing is, because he didn't physically see the plane, he cannot say with certainty that the explosive felt beneath him was before the impact. It's the same thing with Jennings. He can't say for sure, because he had no view of the towers.

reply to post by Varemia
That is a good point ,sound does travel rather fast in a tower building I've lived in one and the noise drove me crazy.But when you take into consideration that he also saw people that were injured in the basement I don't see any viable explanation for that other than there were bombs in the sub-level floors.

Look just what I told Dave,I'm not one on ATS to debate this subject,because it causes too much distress among myself and other posters.Although I do comment once in a while,I think it's a waste of time because we are not going to come to any kind of solution.Until more evidence is released and someone in high places steps up to tell us the complete story of what happened that day none of us will know the real truth

Originally posted by TWILITE22
reply to post by GoodOlDave

 

Jesus Dave have you lost your mind I'm showing you a video of the man you said heard explosions ABOVE him,which is in direct contradiction of what he said in this video???Your making me crazy Dave

Ah yes, the "that's what I said but I really didn't say that" game again. Before I follow you down that rat hole of story changing and quote mining, let's establish something first- did Rodriquez or did Rodriguez not state the following in a June 2005 interview?

"Seconds after the first massive explosion below in the basement still rattled the floor, I hear another explosion from way above," said Rodriguez. "Although I was unaware at the time, this was the airplane hitting the tower, it occurred moments after the first explosion."

Link to "Patriots Question 9/11" article

Link to "Democratic Underground" article

Link to "Prison Planet" article

reply to post by GoodOlDave
You brought up Rodriguez,you said he said one thing and I showed you a video of him saying exactly the opposite...who's correct?


Lets go have a drink on me Dave

Originally posted by TWILITE22
reply to post by Varemia

 

That is a good point ,sound does travel rather fast in a tower building I've lived in one and the noise drove me crazy.But when you take into consideration that he also saw people that were injured in the basement I don't see any viable explanation for that other than there were bombs in the sub-level floors.

All right, let's get ANOTHER issue established first before continuing- did Rodriguez or did Rodrizuez say he rescued a badly burned man who had come out of the elevator (which necessarily means the flames from the impact made it all the way down into the basement)?

Look just what I told Dave,I'm not one on ATS to debate this subject,because it causes too much distress among myself and other posters.Although I do comment once in a while,I think it's a waste of time because we are not going to come to any kind of solution.Until more evidence is released and someone in high places steps up to tell us the complete story of what happened that day none of us will know the real truth

...which is why we need to review what the eyewitnesses are saying and then try to build a reasonable scenario from the eyewitness accounts. Can we agree on that, at least?

Originally posted by TWILITE22

 

You brought up Rodriguez,you said he said one thing and I showed you a video of him saying exactly the opposite...who's correct?

Techncially we both are...because you proved Rodriguez is changing his story and we're just quoting the separate stories he's making.

So just how credible should we hold Rodriguez, then?

Originally posted by GoodOlDave

I really don't understand how you can't comprehend the shockwave from the explosion would travel through open air faster than it does through the solid material.

Pretty sure you have this backwards.

Sound travels through steel at something like 4000m/s.

So most likely he heard:

1- the sound of the plane impact coming from the steel

2- then, the sound of the plane impact coming through the air

3- then the deflagration from the fire balls...

So what was the point of the tent/tarp to begin with? And why did they need to bring it into the pentagon?

No matter how you look at 9/11 there are unanswered questions, ranging from is the government lying to why did it take 10 years to track down Bin Laden? Even you have questions for the truthers, so all we can really be sure of is how little we are sure of.

reply to post by GoodOlDave

...which is why we need to review what the eyewitnesses are saying and then try to build a reasonable scenario from the eyewitness accounts. Can we agree on that, at least?

Yep,but I still think we should get that drink first?
but right now I'm a bit tired don't have the need to go any further with this discussion today.Maybe tomorrow...okey dokey?

reply to post by GoodOlDave

Techncially we both are...because you proved Rodriguez is changing his story and we're just quoting the separate stories he's making.

So just how credible should we hold Rodriguez, then?

More credible than you or I as he was actually there.

Also you stated that Cheney didn't give the stand down order? Well I think this video suggests he did.



Oh and I'm still waiting for you to post the video where you claim Rumsfeld came out on 9/12 stating that the missing Trillions admitted to on 9/10 was merely an accounting error.

Originally posted by Joey Canoli
Pretty sure you have this backwards.

Sound travels through steel at something like 4000m/s.

So most likely he heard:

1- the sound of the plane impact coming from the steel

2- then, the sound of the plane impact coming through the air

3- then the deflagration from the fire balls...

At this point I'm not certain whether this is still relevent, as Rodriguez is now apparently backpeddling from his original statement that he ever felt an explosion above him.

Originally posted by Joey Canoli

Pretty sure you have this backwards.

Sound travels through steel at something like 4000m/s.

So most likely he heard:

1- the sound of the plane impact coming from the steel

2- then, the sound of the plane impact coming through the air

3- then the deflagration from the fire balls...

I have to agree with this. Sound does travel faster through solids and liquids.

Number 1 should also include the side load of the impact transmitted to the base of the building, that's what gave the impression of an explosion below him.

Originally posted by filosophia
So what was the point of the tent/tarp to begin with? And why did they need to bring it into the pentagon?

Your two choices are..

a) it's a private place where they can bring remains of the victims they were pulling out of the impact area and away from the view of the 5,000 rubber neckers gathering outside the barrier tape OR

b) it's some part of a super secret plot to take over the world.

The point is that it doesn't matter what they were using the tents for. The point is that Dylan Avery has no right whatsoever to censor his information and falsify it in the way he did. This wasn't an accidental misidentification, either; the very fact that he edited the photo to cut out the crowds in the background showed he was deliberately concealing which direction the people carrying the tents were walking.

Originally posted by Cobaltic1978
Also you stated that Cheney didn't give the stand down order? Well I think this video suggests he did.

Sorry, but this myth has been debunked long ago. Here's the full transcript- Mineta heard DO THE ORDERS STILL STAND, not STAND DOWN ORDER and he specifically said fighters were scrambled out of Langly and Norfolk. Why do the conspiracy theorists deliberately change things around to their liking like this?


"MR. HAMILTON: We thank you for that. I wanted to focus just a moment on the Presidential Emergency Operating Center. You were there for a good part of the day. I think you were there with the vice president. And when you had that order given, I think it was by the president, that authorized the shooting down of commercial aircraft that were suspected to be controlled by terrorists, were you there when that order was given?

MR. MINETA: No, I was not. I was made aware of it during the time that the airplane coming into the Pentagon. There was a young man who had come in and said to the vice president, "The plane is 50 miles out. The plane is 30 miles out." And when it got down to, "The plane is 10 miles out," the young man also said to the vice president, "Do the orders still stand?" And the vice president turned and whipped his neck around and said, "Of course the orders still stand. Have you heard anything to the contrary?" Well, at the time I didn't know what all that meant. And --

MR. HAMILTON: The flight you're referring to is the --

MR. MINETA: The flight that came into the Pentagon.

MR. HAMILTON: The Pentagon, yeah.

MR. MINETA: And so I was not aware that that discussion had already taken place. But in listening to the conversation between the young man and the vice president, then at the time I didn't really recognize the significance of that.

And then later I heard of the fact that the airplanes had been scrambled from Langley to come up to DC, but those planes were still about 10 minutes away. And so then, at the time we heard about the airplane that went into Pennsylvania, then I thought, "Oh, my God, did we shoot it down?" And then we had to, with the vice president, go through the Pentagon to check that out.

MR. HAMILTON: Let me see if I understand. The plane that was headed toward the Pentagon and was some miles away, there was an order to shoot that plane down.

MR. MINETA: Well, I don't know that specifically, but I do know that the airplanes were scrambled from Langley or from Norfolk, the Norfolk area. But I did not know about the orders specifically other than listening to that other conversation.

MR. HAMILTON: But there very clearly was an order to shoot commercial aircraft down.

MR. MINETA: Subsequently I found that out.

reply to post by GoodOlDave


Hmm, yeah, didn't actually hear that and as the whole thing had been filmed could you post me a link to that.

Still waiting for the Rumsfeld Video though. Any chance?

Also you claiming that Rodriguez is changing his stance, any chance of a link on that as well.

You never know G.O.D, you might be able to convert me back if you posted some links, rather than I heard this and I read that. I appreciate I could look it up for myself and will do, if you can't provide the links. Just let me know.

Originally posted by Cobaltic1978
reply to post by GoodOlDave

 

Hmm, yeah, didn't actually hear that and as the whole thing had been filmed could you post me a link to that.
.

reply to post by GoodOlDave



Dave, I think people should give this guy a break because he was in a towering inferno that was just hit by a plane. Sometimes when people go through times of emotional crisis, they have trouble remembering every little detail of the incident. He might say he remembers one thing and then later remembers something else, that even happens to people who have car wrecks.

If he were inside the lower floors when the planes hit, he would not have seen the planes. Then he would naturally have to assume something else happened. Even the firemen who went on the call to the WTC at the first hit. They were in the firehouses and were called after the plane hit. Those firemen inside the WTC would not have seen the second one hit because they were inside trying to rescue people. It was around 17 minutes between hits and firemen responding to the first plane hit that were still on the street saw the second plane.

The amount of time actually overlapped, which means that plane 1 hit at 8:46 am, then at 9:03 am plane 2 hit, so the first building was burning 17 minutes. So firemen had to go into both buildings at the same time and had a little more than an hour to help people. They did their best in the amount of time they had to do this.

When firemen said they heard what sounded like explosions, that is what it sounded like as various parts of the buildings were on fire and exploding. If they had not seen the planes then they would have to assume. We have to remember what their locations were on that day. There were firemen who did see the second plane hit because they were there at the time. We really can't think bad about them if they did not see the planes, they were obviously in the buildings, on their way to the buildings or coming from the firehouses.

Hey dave they are not false. Did you ever think to wonder why the Israelis were dancing? Do you remember the fake art students arrested by the FBI?

What about WT7? Did you know there was a federal agency in there at the time it was destroyed?

How about the fact that the hijackers passports were more recovered than the other victims, statistical anomaly for sure.

And all this conveniently led to WMDs and Afghanistan.

Many many things do not add up.

The muslims which supposedly attacked america were trained because of the initiative of America in the past and the pilots were trained not in caves in Afghanistan, but in America. On top of that Saudis were evacuated after some of their fellow citizens allegedly crashed planes in New York while all American flights were grounded. To top it off there wasnt any reaction towards Saudi Arabia, but the target was Afghanistan, where the goal to fight "Alquaeda" quickly evaporated and it became a war for control against the local Talibans and other native Afghan tribes.

That made me wonder if there is more to the muslim conspiracy theory we had all been sold.

Originally posted by THE_PROFESSIONAL
Hey dave they are not false. Did you ever think to wonder why the Israelis were dancing? Do you remember the fake art students arrested by the FBI?

No I didn't think to wonder why the Isralis were dancing, because it's yet another conspiracy hoax. The original call came in reporting that a bunch of middle-east looking guys with a van were acting erraticially as if they were congratulating each other. The police bulletin then went out saying to be on the lookout for a van with five people who appeared to be celebrating, and when they were found they turned out to be Israelis who told the cops the Palestinians were the enemy, not the Israelis. Those damned fool conspiracy web sites then go off to reinvent this as "five dancing Israelis". It's obviously the case that it's a story that was changed more and more through the tellings that after a while it became a completely different story.

This is neither here nor there. Whatever the five Israelis did or did not do does not disprove the fact that eyewitnesses are saying one thing while those damned fool conspiracy web sites are falsely claiming they're saying something else. "Does the order still stand" doesn't remotely mean the same thing as "stand down order" regardless of how often you repeat it.

What about WT7? Did you know there was a federal agency in there at the time it was destroyed?

No I didn't. So what?