What made you first suspect that these 9/11 conspiracy stories were false?

For me, I'd have to say it was the realization that Dylan Avery's "Loose Change" was chock full of lies. In one particular scene, he claimed that after the attack at the Pentagon, a group of unknown people were carrying some mysterious object covered by a blue tarp was being carried out of the Pentagon and then asks "what is this object they're carrying out?". This struck be as really weird behavior for personnel at the Pentagon to be doing, considering the building was just attacked and peopel were killed, so I did more research to see if there were any clues.

...which is when I found out that it wasn't a "blue tarp covered object" being carried out of the Pentagon. It was a triage tent being carried INTO the Pentagon. The image Avery used was deliberately edited to cut off the crowds in the background to conceal the direction the people carrying the triage tent were walking.. Dylan Avery LIED!

I then did more research on the supposed "evidence" I was shown. Richard Gage took the video NIST used in their report, cut off the footage of the penthouse collapsing into the interior of the building six seconds before the rest of the building collapsed, all so he can claim "mysterious noises were coming out of WTC 7 six seconds before it collapsed." Richard Gage is intentionally editing the evidence to suit his tastes, and the only reason why he'd censor such information is if he was up to something.

The list of lies goes on and on- conspiracy proponents claimed the fires in WTC 7 were completely out when the fire fighters who were there said the fires were burning out of control, they claimed Cheney gave a stand down order when the video of the 9/11 commision testimony specifically said someone asked "did the orders still stand", they claimed there was no evidence of any plane that hit the Pentagon when there are hundreds of eyewitnesses who specifically saw the plane hit as well as photographs all over the internet showing aircraft wreckage, and the like...and no, the hijackers and the organizers behind them were NOT "illiterate cavemen" They all came from middle class families and were highly educated. Bin Laden himself was mega-rich due to a family inheritance, and- surprise- his activities into Islamic fundamentalism arose at about the same time.

I present this information to the conspiracy theorists, and what do I hear? The gov't is in on the conspiracy. The NYC police are in on the conspiracy. The NYC fire dept are in on the conspiracy. The Red Cross is in on the conspiracy. The BBC is in on the conspiracy. NIST and FEMA are in on the conspiracy. The CIA and FBI are in on the conspiracy. NORAD and NATO are in on the conspiracy. All the eyewitnesses near the Pentagon and Shanksville are in on the conspiracy. Every news organization on Earth is in on the conspiracy. MIT and Purdue are in on the conspiracy. Popular Mechanics magazine is in on the conspiracy. Dylan Avery and Alex Jones are in on the conspiracy. Apparently, I'm in on the conspiracy, too. Jeez, who the heck isn't in on the conspiracy?

When it gets to the point where the only way a conspiracy theory can survive critical analysis is by circulating outright lies and playing the "secret gov't agent" card at every possible opportinuty, this is proof positive that whatever the conspiracy theorists' true motives to circulate these conspiracy claims are, "honest research into the events of the 9/11 attack" it certainly ain't.

reply to post by GoodOlDave
For me, it was probably when I started noticing little pieces of the puzzle that didn't fit.

The Bush administration fought against an investigatory commission for so long, then severely underfunded it. They refused to testify under oath and alone, and generally presented an air of guilt for some reason.

Then we've got the nature of the damage and the unexpected results of the collapse themselves, as usually discussed, on top of very odd cases of immediately jumping to a definite HE DID IT! suspect when no evidence had yet een uncovered or analyzed, as well as starting to come across silly evidences like a passport that mysteriously survived the crash, explosion, and collapse more-or-less unharmed (and then was somehow majically identified as belonging to a hijacker - what kind of jump is that, with what evidence?), as well as very convenient luggage containing evidence of the crime and demeanor of the supposed hijackers - which very conveniently didn't make the flight when it was completely unreasonable to be taking such evidence on the flights anyway.

Then when the investigatory commission itself in the majority came out against its own finding to to outright deception and obfuscation by the government agencies and representatives they were investigating, in addition to all the other little nagging factors I haven't thought to mention, it really sealed the deal for me that at the VERY least, a new, unfettered, and independent investigation is called for as the government obviously wants to hide SOMETHING, for some reason...and I'd like to know what it is.

Oh, you wanted thoughts on why the conspiracy theorist's stories and such are false? Apologies. I'd assume that's just sloppy research and rushing by laymen who've become very passionate about what they feel as a grand deception, I suppose, in addition to records of conflicting reports by others who didn't see the planes, reported explosions in unexpected places, and a lack of what's generally considered typical wreckage, and so forth. I can understand as I feel somewhat the same way.

Pretty much as soon as the first conspiracy theory came out. Nineteen terrorists hijacking airplanes and flying them into buildings still remains the simplest explanation.

Also, no whistleblowers ever surfaced. If the government can keep 9/11 whistleblowers covered up, why can't they keep Fast and Furious ATF whistleblowers covered up?

I find it interesting the point you provide, suspecting Dylan Avery of lying. I've seen a show on T.V., investigating many conspiracy theories regarding 9/11, and Loose Change was a common reference in the show. They actually interview Avery, where he clearly says "Loose Change was originally supposed to be a fictional rendering, based on the events of 9/11." It was only when the "9/11-Truth-Movement" gained momentum, that a lot of these depictions became considered facts, and Loose Change became the paramount source for many of these movements.

I became aware that 9/11 conspiracies are most likely false, when I realized that a wide percentage of conspirators think all footage is fake, there were no planes, and the "illusion" of planes are based on holograms.

I'm sorry, but... what? Haha, whatever.

reply to post by GoodOlDave


I admit what some of the theories say are just hype and guessing but since we were given more questions than answers from the Original Story what would you expect?

If you where someone higher up in the government would you not say "Hey, maybe we need to give them a little more evidence of what we claim happened. Maybe something like more pictures of aircraft hitting the pentagon or a more solid reason a fire brought down a steel structure building (WTC7)."
Why wouldn't they if you could kill a lot of the theories in one move? The Truth Movement isn't getting any smaller. It's growing and this is why you write this post because this growth concerns you.

I guess what I'm saying is why not disclose more to the people? We fund the governments very existence and we can't even get a proper, non hurried, disclosure. We need disclosure and then we can have closure. It's a human thing.

i'd have to say that i'm not one of the ones who think that there were no planes, i think there were, i take everything with a grain of salt, but theres some things that don't make sense on the osers side and the truthers side....to me, i think both sides hold on to pretty extreme and radical reasons to believe what they are told.....the osers seem to not believe the truthers side of it because of the fact that there has been some pretty wild and lame brain theories that have been injected into the truth movement and they won't let those go.....the smart thing would be to take the os with a grain of salt and the truthers side with a grain of salt.....if there is any holes in either side, don't believe either side, try to plug those holes with your own research....it shouldn't be about, "well, the truthers are all saying this and saying that so i'm going to believe the os whole heartedly" that shouldn't happen....there is a gray area that you can stand on if both extremes don't fit.....

Originally posted by Praetorius
Then when the investigatory commission itself in the majority came out against its own finding to to outright deception and obfuscation by the government agencies and representatives they were investigating, in addition to all the other little nagging factors I haven't thought to mention, it really sealed the deal for me that at the VERY least, a new, unfettered, and independent investigation is called for as the government obviously wants to hide SOMETHING, for some reason...and I'd like to know what it is.

As do I...but the fact that there are a lot of questions that haven't been answered yet...and Lee Hamilton himself admits his investigation turned up no clue as to the actual reason for why Mohammed Atta actually did it...doesn't mean we should be holding an Olympic event on making stuff up off the tops of our heads to fill in the void.

From past performance, such coverups usually means that someone, somewhere screwed up royally and they're going all out to hide it. Simply look at the ATF's "fast and Furious" operation where they openly ordered gun dealers to cooperate with illegal gun runners in the hopes of tracing where the guns are going, only to have a border agent on the Mexican border get killed with one of them. Right now, every high up ATF agent is being grilled on whose bright idea this was, and of course, everyone is playing amnesia and claiming "we don't know." It's like some mass psychosis spontaneously settled into the head of every ATF agent to start selling illegal guns to Mexican gun runners.

SO, when I see so many government authorities coming out and saying "we don't know where our defenses failed", what they're really saying is that the person/people responsible for our defenses having failed have crawled underneath a rock to lay low. I agree we need more investigations because we need to know where exactly our defenses failed so that it can't happen again, but making up ridiculous claims of lasers from outer space, secret controlled demolitions in occupied buildings, "no planes", and the like, is only turning the momentum to get more investigations into a three ring circus. Heck, there are truthers who even claim UFOs were hovering over the towers before they were struck.

reply to post by GoodOlDave
Did you happen to check the 9/11 forum to see what topics they had in there? How about this one started just yesterday titled "What made you first suspect that the 9/11 official story was false."??

Almost the exact same as your thread!

I guess the answer is no?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by Junkheap
Pretty much as soon as the first conspiracy theory came out. Nineteen terrorists hijacking airplanes and flying them into buildings still remains the simplest explanation.

Also, no whistleblowers ever surfaced. If the government can keep 9/11 whistleblowers covered up, why can't they keep Fast and Furious ATF whistleblowers covered up?

edit on 30-9-2011 by Junkheap because: (no reason given)

Perhaps the players in the game had no awareness of what they were doing in the scheme?
by that I mean, classified intentions are not seen by average eyes. Both the 19 attackers and perhaps if there were some sort of demolitions inside, the people who planted it could have not even been aware of what they were doing due to protocol. The 19 attackers could have been a baited Saudi terrorist organization hijacked by a third party with more sinister plots. The two towers could have fallen legitly, but WTC7 was definitely a controlled demolition propaganda piece used as a fear revival for war.

reply to post by GoodOlDave
Well said, friend.

...doesn't mean we should be holding an Olympic event on making stuff up off the tops of our heads to fill in the void.

Absolutely agreed. If it's by an means intentional, that rates right up there with hoaxing in my book, and I do NOT have good thoughts about hoaxers. When dealing with issues like this, one should always be careful to try to avoid introducing falsehoods one way or the other that only muddy the waters and confuse everything even further.

I agree we need more investigations because we need to know where exactly our defenses failed so that it can't happen again, but making up ridiculous claims of lasers from outer space, secret controlled demolitions in occupied buildings, "no planes", and the like, is only turning the momentum to get more investigations into a three ring circus. Heck, there are truthers who even claim UFOs were hovering over the towers before they were struck.

Agreed with most of that, although I don't think we should shy away from honestly examining very suggestive things (such as the collapses). This is one of the stickiest areas, and granted I don't spend a lot of time researching it, but pretty much all of the 'debunking' I've seen of some various claims falls short in light of facts not addressed or details ignored. Perhaps there's a solid explanation there, but so far it all seems to fall short after I look further into counter-arguments, and the government's dithering and clouding just makes the whole thing stink.

Regardless, I hope some day we eventually run down to irrefutable reality either way and can lay the thing to rest...but government doing what it appears to do best is definitely not helping matters.

Thanks, and take care.

Originally posted by freedom12
reply to post by GoodOlDave

 

Did you happen to check the 9/11 forum to see what topics they had in there? How about this one started just yesterday titled "What made you first suspect that the 9/11 official story was false."??

Yes I did, which is why I created this very thread. Every single one of their "suspicions" are rubbish those damned fool conspiracy web sites are pushing out and it needed to be addressed. One person claimed that "no fires were burning in WTC 7" while another claimed "no wreckage was found at the Pentagon", both of which can be shown to be false with a simple 30 second Google search. One poster openly admitted they started down the conspiracy theorist path after watching Loose Change- the very same flick I discovered was a complete lie.

How do you explain this?

reply to post by GoodOlDave

When I saw "Screw Loose Change"

Google Video Link

I was suffering from Bush Derangement Syndrome at the time, and was willing to blame him for anything and everything. That video caused me to look at both sides of the coin when presented with "bombshell evidence".

Oh just after watching these documentaries here :

Core Of Corruption Volume 1: In The Shadows

The project is surfacing exclusive whistleblowers, insiders and critical evidence for the very first time. Over 2,000 hours of credible network news clips have been surfaced for this ground breaking event, most of which have never been seen since they aired and have never been available on the internet. Some of the video news segments for this project, when requested from the networks, were denied access to and corporate representatives would say that the information sought does not exist or has been misplaced. Someone doesnt want the public to see these stories, that when put together, establish a conspiracy of the magnitude that could change the way one views the world. Countless millions of people are being manipulated and lied to by a network of individuals within government that work on behalf of private interests. The individuals were involved in the terrorist attacks of September 11th. Many of those same figures are are connected to historical events that have shaped our understanding of government crime.

Missing Links

Google Video Link

Now you will discover the definitive truth about 9/11 and learn why even the most popular movies on the subject have failed to address the evidence exhaustively presented in this video. The facts will make it abundantly clear that the so-called 9/11 “Truth” movement has been infiltrated and is ultimately controlled by the same criminals group who masterminded the attacks. As they say, 'if you want to control the dissent you lead the dissent.' Utilizing evidence from the FBI, CIA, NSA, US Armed Forces Intelligence sectors, Foreign Intelligence organizations, local law enforcement agencies and independent investigators, Missing Links goes where no other 9/11 video has dared to. For more 9/11 truth see also: ziopedia.org

Oh wait you meant the OS was true, my bad

This is more believable than the OS:

911 Ritual , Freemasons , As above so below , Magick , Astrology Part 1



OP please debunk the two top documentaries. They are not loose change and do not go over the same things.

I can't wait to hear back . . .


Oh and CIA state sponsored terrorism is real before you go off on that tangent;

Operation Gladio [BBC Timewatch, 1992] State-Sponsored Terrorism in Europe

Originally aired on BBC2 in 1992, Operation Gladio reveals Gladio, the secret state-sponsored terror network operating in Europe. This BBC series is about a far-right secret army, operated by the CIA and MI6 through NATO, which killed hundreds of innocent Europeans and attempted to blame the deaths on Baader Meinhof, Red Brigades and other left wing groups.

Known as stay-behinds these armies were given access to military equipment which was supposed to be used for sabotage after a Soviet invasion. Instead it was used in massacres across mainland Europe as part of a CIA Strategy of Tension. Gladio killing sprees in Belgium and Italy were carried out for the purpose of frightening the national political classes into adopting U.S. policies.

reply to post by GoodOlDave


Unfortunately, Dylan Avery has made the "truthers" a laughing stock. Loose Change was so biased and misrepresented that a lot of people who would be prepared to look at the alternative theories see this guy and walk away.

He is a moron. And in my opinion undermined some of the good work and theories put forward by other more respectable people!

reply to post by Junkheap


I never have thought the views of a lot of intelligent people were false and the way TPTB are fighting so obviously to change people's perception of 9/11 only strengthens my view. I'm just glad the obligatory to persuade us we are al idiots, has finished.

If 'someone' engineered and benefitted from a catastrophe that killed over three thousand people, that
'someone' would be likely to have a small elite army of specialists so no whistleblowers there, nor more importantly would that 'someone' permit any whistlers to live.

For me it boils down to one issue, did a group of 'someones' gain something from this atrocity? Yes they did, they gave themselves a new mandate allowing them to push through laws that have restricted our personal freedoms and now allows government to monitor and spy on us all in a way never tolerated in the past.

Most of the theories are easy to see through if you have some basic common sense and understanding of the ideas present in the theories.

My views on 9/11 have always been towards the conspiracy side, but not necessarily in line with most "truther" arguments. Since I tend to disagree with most common arguments I'm either a shill, blind to the facts, or whatever other innuendo delusional truthers have to throw about. (I'm not saying every truther is delusional, but the vast majority of them are.)

I don't support no plane theories, holograms, mini nukes, thermite, space lasers, or the idea that people like Bush were directly involved or behind the attacks, amongst others.

I do however believe that there is far more to the story than Joe Public has been allowed to know. My lines of research and "investigation" have taken me down decidedly different and often unpopular paths than those that tend to consider themselves or otherwise be labeled as truthers.

I support an open and independant new investigation into the events by impartial parties that would focus on some of the aspects of the original "investigation" that were overlooked or ignored completely as well as other concerns or opinions that I have developed over the years.

In many ways my views on the matter have changed over the years based on information I learned or information that was found to be false, from both sides. I consider myself to be objective and open minded and I do not think the government itself is inherently evil and plotting all of our demise. If I could find suitable answers to some of the questions I have and to some of the inconsistencies in the OS I would be "happy" to change my opinion.

reply to post by GoodOlDave

What made you first suspect that these 9/11 conspiracy stories were false?

Quite simple:

Common sense.

I had believed in the shoot down theory in Shanksville, that Flight 93 was shot out of the sky but the bulk of the plane still landed in the field causing the crater. A theory espoused by the likes of Jim Hoffman and sites like flight93crash.com.

After thinking about it though, I never could quite understand how debris would only fall past the impact spot, and none before leading up to the crater. The debris pattern seemed to be reversed for a shoot down.

And after critically looking at that odd crater, one like I've NEVER seen before, and the unburnt grass surrounding it, it because obvious to me that the shoot down conspiracy theory was false, but that no plane had crashed in Shanksville instead.

I never threw my lot in with any of the conspiracy theory, especially the official theory. There is no way that anyone will ever know exactly what happened either in those planes or in those buildings to any degree of certainty. To say otherwise is just foolish.

I have my suspicions on a few bits of things here and there, but nothing earthshattering. 9/11 was a horrible and tragic event, but not even close to the scale of tragedy that has happened to us in the 10 years since.