Those who oppose Christ and His messengers will disregard ~ Leave New York City + San Francisco

reply to post by DarkKnight21


So instead of punishing David (who decided to use the cart), he punishes the man who kept the ark from tipping?

Genius!!!

reply to post by gavron


By that standard he should punish all of us, not Christ. We are the guilty party.

Thankfully we are loved more than that. God continued to trust David in leading His people. We are to learn from the sacrifices of the innocent, not allow ourselves to be destroyed by them.

Regards,

DK

Originally posted by DarkKnight21
thus God's commanded genocide was not sadism.

What a load of nonsense. Yes, I read your whole post.
If you truly believe this (which it appears you do) then I certainly want no part of this despicable arse that people call god.

reply to post by aorAki


I just want to say that 1) the people were warned ahead of time and 2) the primary reason was punishment for wrongdoing. This was pure justice. The populations of the destroyed cities had long histories of disgusting sins (Gen 15:16, Dt 25:17-19), which often included sacrificing their children to false gods (Dt 12:29-31). Their consciences should have told these people they were doing wrong. Had they listened and changed their ways, they would not have been destroyed. God has said that if any nation is about to be destroyed as punishment but repents, he will forgive them and not destroy them (Jer 18:7-8). In fact, this occurred in the city of Ninevah (Jonah 3:4-10).

In the cities that were given to the Israelites as their inheritance, there was a secondary reason: totally depraved cultures were destroyed so that they would not corrupt the Israelites into committing the same evil acts (Dt 7:1-4, 20:16-18). This did in fact occur: when the Israelites didn't obey God and destroy cities, they too began practicing child sacrifice (Ps 106:34-40).

Additionally, the destruction of wicked nations served as an instructive warning to contemporaries (Josh 2:1-11) and future generations (1 Cor 10:1-11). We are to learn from them, not hate God for them. He gave us this life in the first place, our flesh belongs to him and thus he has every right to take it away. (Job 1:21)

Originally posted by DarkKnight21

Thankfully we are loved more than that. God continued to trust David in leading His people. We are to learn from the sacrifices of the innocent, not allow ourselves to be destroyed by them.

I'm sure that means a lot to Oza (or Uzzah)'s family. He innocently tried to help his God, and is smited for his act of kindness.

Punishing the innocent? Yeah, that's a god I want to worship.

(looking at a website now that shows the body count in the Bible of people God has killed ,or ordered killed...quite shocking.)

Originally posted by gavron

Originally posted by DarkKnight21

Thankfully we are loved more than that. God continued to trust David in leading His people. We are to learn from the sacrifices of the innocent, not allow ourselves to be destroyed by them.

I'm sure that means a lot to Oza (or Uzzah)'s family. He innocently tried to help his God, and is smited for his act of kindness.

Punishing the innocent? Yeah, that's a god I want to worship.

Imagine someone is paying you to move, say, a big screen TV from room to room in their house. This person tells you that you and your helpers should hoist the TV on your shoulders to counterbalance the weight. You instead decide to use a dolly, ignoring what you have been paid to do in the name of efficiency. When you turn a sharp corner, the TV naturlly rolls off the dolly and crushes you. Your intentions at the time of death are arbitrary. Even though you were ignorant of the consequences, you did not trust the person who was paying you and it ultimately cost you your life. Is ignorance still an excuse? Are you still entirely innocent?

Food for thought.

reply to post by DarkKnight21


What you are forgetting is that David was the one told to move the ark a certain way, and ignored it. Not Uzzah.

So, by your example, if you told me to hoist the TV on our shoulders, and I told my friend Mike to use a Dolly Instead....it falls and crushes Mike. I am unharmed. Innocent Mike dies.

God punishes the innocent, and lets the person he instructed suffer no punishment.

Sad....

Obviously god makes mistakes.
After all, he is only human.

reply to post by gavron


So then you agree, David is the guilty party here, and not God?

If God instructed all of them how to properly handle the ark, then Uzzah would have had no excuse.
If God instructed David only, then Uzzah is innocent only by comparison to David.

You be the prosecutor here. By the natural consequences of the situation, Mike is dead and someone deserves a manslaughter charge. Do you prosecute the owner of the house, who warned them ahead of time, or do you prosecute the mover who was given the responsibility in the first place?

Either way it is difficult to place the blame on God when the foreknowledge is provided to humans beforehand.

I am sure David felt responsible for Uzzah's death and the guilt of it itched at his conscious for the rest of his life. This is why he initially responded out of anger. He was properly dealt with. If God were vengeful rather than just, then it may seem OK to kill David. Instead, he forgave David and continued to use him for a better purpose. David learned from his mistake and because of that many mutually beneficial things happened for both God and his people. Even though he was responsible, He used David to effectively justify Uzzah's death.

What about the 5 billion people that dont practice christainity? Are they going to hell too? Its gonna get crowded down there.

reply to post by LonelyGuy


It has been said that Jesus Christ is the way to life and that the road is narrow.

We are a bunch of David's, not Uzzah's. We have been told to live as Jesus did because it is the best way, not the most efficient. If we do not try to live by his code of love and acceptance, we will end up hurting others and ultimately ourselves. We can no longer proclaim ignorance as our excuse.

"So the trouble is not with the law, for it is spiritual and good. The trouble is with me, for I am all too human, a slave to sin." - Romans 7:14

Even if you do not believe in hell, surely you must see the effect the consequences of sin have in this physical world? STDs, HIV, deception (lies) by the media/government, the list goes on... it is for this reason, I feel, that the only irrational choice is to deny that God's laws exist.

Originally posted by DarkKnight21
He used David to effectively justify Uzzah's death.

edit on 1/5/2012 by DarkKnight21 because: (no reason given)

Disgusting.
Abhorrent.
What a horrible and violent god this arse is.
It's quite obvious that he is just a reflection of our inner selves and a fabrication to justify disempowering some people for others' gain.
I'm sorry that you have been taken in by such a lie.
Become enlightened, set yourself free, deny your god and accept that he isn't real.

Originally posted by aorAki

Originally posted by DarkKnight21
He used David to effectively justify Uzzah's death.

edit on 1/5/2012 by DarkKnight21 because: (no reason given)

Disgusting.
Abhorrent.
What a horrible and violent god this arse is.

If you hate violence, you may not want to watch this. Some pretty vile things happened to this man, who was the most innocent of all.



Even something as negative as that ^ can be turned around by making something or someone else into a positive. See, how He makes all things new.

"For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and have become freed..." - Romans 6:14-18

I have freed myself from the lies of the media, which has preached the message that not only is sin acceptable but commendable. You need look no further than MTV for that, which rewards unmarried pregnant 16 year-olds with a TV show.

Originally posted by DarkKnight21
reply to post by gavron

 

So then you agree, David is the guilty party here, and not God?

Sure, if David killed Uzzah, but he didn't. That was by the hand of God. Remember the verse in the bible? "7] And the indignation of the Lord was enkindled against Oza, and he struck him for his rashness:". The Lord struck him.

Says so right there.

Originally posted by DarkKnight21
You need look no further than MTV for that, which rewards unmarried pregnant 16 year-olds with a TV show.

Lets not forget tele-evangelists...that "preach the word of God", then drive to their luxury homes in their limos and live in splendor, while their parish foolishly hands them their meager earnings.

It's quite obvious that he is just a reflection of our inner selves and a fabrication to justify disempowering some people for others' gain.

The whole point of the bible is to debunk the myth that we are justified over anyone else but Him. He is not a reflection of us, He is simply asking us to be a better reflection of Him. He wants you to justify the death of Jesus, though He has already justified Himself.

Originally posted by DarkKnight21

Originally posted by aorAki

Originally posted by DarkKnight21
He used David to effectively justify Uzzah's death.

edit on 1/5/2012 by DarkKnight21 because: (no reason given)

Disgusting.
Abhorrent.
What a horrible and violent god this arse is.

Even something as negative as that ^ can be turned around by making something or someone else into a positive. See, how He makes all things new.

And yet things are just the same, with deluded people being hypocritical, killing and murder, dishonesty, fornication (shock horror!) and greed. Nothing is new apart from the method.

.

Originally posted by DarkKnight21He wants to use you to justify the death of Jesus, though He has already justified Himself.

edit on 1/5/2012 by DarkKnight21 because: (no reason given)

I will not be used by anybody to justify a death.
I will not be 'guilt-tripped' by an imaginary sky faerie whose legacy is death, violence, destruction and being judgemental.

This would be a lot more believable if You were not picking on Gays. Everyone's a sinner, and he Bible says sins are all equally bad. But I say there are far worse sins than being gay, can You say Kid diddler?

Originally posted by jondave
This would be a lot more believable if You were not picking on Gays. Everyone's a sinner, and he Bible says sins are all equally bad. But I say there are far worse sins than being gay, can You say Kid diddler?

It was not my intention to target or offend any specific "group". If I did, I apologize.

I typically try not to see people as being divisible in "groups", and I will try harder tomorrow.

But yes I will agree with you on the equality bit.

Where is it written that Jesus said this?