The Irvine 11: Islamophobia is alive and well

reply to post by Shamatt


First off, even with dyslexia I am still going to treat you as a "normal" as you put it. I have seen more than my share of people with disabilities rise above and flourish if they are treated as equals.

Second off, you even admit that they broke the law. The law IS in black and white. There are no shades of grey. I am not saying I am not guilty of ever breaking the law. Hell, I spent the night in jail three months ago because of a bench warrant from 2008 regarding expired tags. The fact is, I broke the law and I paid my price. These people who you have dubbed the "Irving 11" broke the law and if you ask me, they got off pretty easy.

Thirdly, you keep attempting to justify your beliefs by saying yeah, they broke the law, but they got in trouble because of their race. This is an out and out lie. They got in trouble BECAUSE they broke the law! If you get caught, you pay the price. It's as simple as that.

Originally posted by DerbyCityLights

They got in trouble BECAUSE they broke the law! If you get caught, you pay the price. It's as simple as that.

If that were the truth then you and I would have very little to argue about. Probably even enjoy a beer together. But that's not true. It is very true that justice is not dolled out evenly in the US - There are plenty of examples. (And in most other countries in the world too - I;m not a US basher particulalry - I bash everyone everywhere if I see fit.

And you are chtting, by the wa, with someone who has beaten dyslexia and been very succesfull. I agree with you on that - I only mentioned it because it is 12:45am, I am tired, and this is hard work. You know it can take me over 1 minute to write 1 sentance sometimes? In the mornings when I am awake and coffeed up I can type as quick as a norm, but it takes ages to read back and correct! lol Not looking for special treatment. (I guess I just get grumpy knowing how quickly and easily you guys (Some of you - I have seen the poor quality writing o here and it bugs me) can knock out an inteligent well written thread. People don't realise how lucky they are. I might even start a thread on the topic tomorrow) Now posting at 1 am - shows you how hard I work on this. I can type as fast as you can, I just stumble on every word.

reply to post by Shamatt



But it is true. I went to jail for a misdemeanor and I'm the average white Joe. I received no special treatment what so ever.

Shamatt,

I'm curious. Are you upset because they were arrested, or are you upset that they were not let go? As an example, I was pulled over for speeding while doing 73 in a 70 zone. I couldn't argue with the guy, because, technically, I was breaking the law. But I have to admit I was hoping he wouldn't write me a ticket for it. (But he did.)

Is that the situation here, in your estimation?

charles1952

Originally posted by charles1952
Shamatt,

I'm curious. Are you upset because they were arrested, or are you upset that they were not let go? As an example, I was pulled over for speeding while doing 73 in a 70 zone. I couldn't argue with the guy, because, technically, I was breaking the law. But I have to admit I was hoping he wouldn't write me a ticket for it. (But he did.)

Is that the situation here, in your estimation?

charles1952

I already made clear what my problems are with this, and not really in the mmood to go over it again.

I understand what your beliefs are, or at least what you say thay are, and you should by know know mine.

I think it suck to get a ticket at 73 mph. In fact I am surprised as that is less than 5% over. It is only mandatory for cars to have an accurate speedo to within 10% when they leave the factory. (To be fair, I am not sure if this is the same for cars heading to the US, I am assuming it is) Sorry to hear the cop who pulled you was such a dick.

You were hoping you would get off, and I bet you and your friends were all really pissed when you got the book thrown at you. You figured it was not fair, and that the law was being used in too heavy a fasion.

Sounds familiar.

I'm not quite sure if it could honestly be counted as a "disruption". In no possible way could the students have entered into a "reasoned debate" with the speaker. At most they would be able to have one of them ask one question, and that would be laughed off by the speaker (or they'd be told to shush by the organisers) and the question would be ignored.

So they decided to "make a statement". Okay, perhaps it was a blatant "propaganda trick", but so what?

You can't really say they were infringing on the speakers freedom of speech, or preventing him from completing his speech, when the totality of all their statements together was less than 1 minute, and each of them willingly and voluntarily got up and left after. It certainly wasn't capable of "breaking up the assembly", unless the organisers wished it to.

And it wasn't slander either, not really- they said stuff like "propagating murder is not an expression of free speech", which is certainly true, and stuff like "You, sir, are an accomplice to genocide!", which again, considering the speaker is in the IDF, could be....debatable, I guess?

My point is, seeing as how this could've gone either way, and how most other cases in similar situations don't result in such sort of convictions, there is a case to be made for the OP's point of view: that this is a result of islamophobia. This viewpoint is compounded by some of the comments in this thread, where I believe someone said something like "it is not islamophobia to be worried about being suicide-bombed when you see a muslim" (uh, yes it is), and there are numerous examples of more violent and aggressive islamophobia occurring in the US for those who wish to claim that such a thing does not exist.

reply to post by babloyi


I'm not looking at this as a religious or personal matter. You don't believe it was disruption; the police, District Attorney, jury and judge thought it was. The Irvine 10 have at least two competent lawyers. There's nothing you can do about it now except perhaps send them encouragement e-mails (You don't need the prison address, they're not going to serve any time) or money to fund their appeals (if they make them).

Lots of people may not like the decision, but that doesn't make it wrong.

Originally posted by Shamatt

Originally posted by DerbyCityLights

Originally posted by Shamatt


Ha!

Well, fair enough. You live there, if you are happy with it then I am happy for you. Well, actually I don't care. You won't see what you won't look at any way.

If you don't live here, then why the hell are you bitching about it? Are you just trying to start trouble? Are you just trying to ruffle feathers? I think you can get off your soap box now especially since you have proven beyond a doubt that you don't have a damn clue about our laws.

I don't give a damn about your laws, it is the fact that a significant portion of your population seems to act as though it were bereft of any kind of morality, or even a modicum of love or compassion for their common man.

Call me a loony lefty hippy whatever, but this is, even if you can't see it, and example of what is wrong with America. The way the US acts at home and abroad is a disgrace, and that is all I have to say about it. America is not the world, this is a planet we share.

Byee

Shamatt...yes...there is going to be some anti-muslim attitudes in the U.S. especially after 9/11 but that is to be expected. But when you compare the U.S. to other countries and how those countries populous would react to a similar act done by the U.S....or how Non-Muslims are treated in some Middle Eastern countries...and I have seen this myself...the U.S. populous reaction is tiny in comparison.

The facts here are that a small group of terrorists who were Muslim....killed a lot of Americans in a cowardly act. Many...but not the majority...in the Muslim world cheered on this attack as they have felt mistreated by U.S. indifference of actions by their own Muslim leaders as long as the oil flows. Add to this the Palestinian issue.

It is time for Muslims to stop blaming every problem they have on the U.S. and actually DO SOMETHING ON THEIR OWN to solve their problems. The Palestinian issue could have been solved years ago....but rather than aknowledge the right for Israel to exist and enjoy peace and prosperity in the way countries such as Jordan now do....screams of Jihad and pledges to wipe Israel off the map continued.

Lets face facts....the U.S. is a SUPERPOWER the likes of which has never been seen in history. The world is fortunate that the U.S. has no desire to invade every and any country it wishes to garnish resources...as little could be done to stop this.

Sure...it might be possible for a terrorist group to get a nuke by lets say Iran...and detonate it in Israel. WHAT DO YOU THINK THE U.S. WOULD DO IN THAT EVENT!?!? The contigency plans for retaliation are too terrible to contemplate. One possible discussed scenario was to irradiate by low level Neutron Bomb detonations...the entire region....making safe the use of oil reserves within several years. Syria would be gone. Iran would be gone...and other countries just to be sure that their was NO POSSIBILITY of future Atomic Terrorism.

This type of terrorism is glorified by groups such as Hezzbolla and Islamic Jihad as many of these groups members are actually wearing t-shirts with a Mushroom cloud declaring the first Muslim Nuclear bomb. This is not made up...I have seen these shirts with my own eyes. And who sponsers these groups? IRAN.

Point of all this is....the U.S. is more than willing to be a peaceful partner in the region and the concept and cries for the U.S. to leave the region forever are fantasy given the oil resourses and the strategic nature of the geography. So rather than waste time and blood fighting a SUPERPOWER....why not simply work with it and reap the benifits...both monetary and political...that come for any country that is an ally of the U.S.

By the way....there are MILLIONS of Muslims...former citizens of the Middle East...who are American Citizens....who live here...pay taxes...vote...and contribute to the strength of this nation that is a cross section of every race, creed and color from every corner of the world. They came tro this country for freedom and love this country. I know this for a fact....there is not another country on Earth that would welcome them with such open arms as the United States has done....reguardless of our faults. Split Infinity

Originally posted by SplitInfinity


Point of all this is....the U.S. is more than willing to be a peaceful partner in the region and the concept and cries for the U.S. to leave the region forever are fantasy given the oil resourses and the strategic nature of the geography. So rather than waste time and blood fighting a SUPERPOWER....why not simply work with it and reap the benifits...both monetary and political...that come for any country that is an ally of the U.S.

So your solution is for those who face the US in the middle east is for all of them to realise how big and strong the US is and just capitulate? Roll over and let the US do as it pleases, becasue it is a super power and you can't beat it, so join it? You show such wisdom!

Originally posted by SplitInfinity

By the way....there are MILLIONS of Muslims...former citizens of the Middle East...who are American Citizens....who live here...pay taxes...vote...and contribute to the strength of this nation that is a cross section of every race, creed and color from every corner of the world. They came tro this country for freedom and love this country. I know this for a fact....there is not another country on Earth that would welcome them with such open arms as the United States has done....reguardless of our faults. Split Infinity

And by November 2001 over 1100 of these muslims in America had been rounded up and held without charge for an average of 80 days in detention whilst being unfairly investigated, including a US Citizen caught driving a few miles per hour over the speed limit - but he was a muslim immigrant. So he was in jail for four months. A teenage girl and her family were imprisoned for a similar ammount of time. Story Here

Essentially you are right, and I have beensaying somethig simmilar for years - that there are millions of moderate muslims in all western countries who are happy to live allong side us without argument or fear. And these people are important parts of the cummunities in which they live. Not all Muslims want to kill us!

But as always there are two sides to the story, when the country which has welcomed them treats them so badly.

As for your last comment - you obviosly do not know about Australia. I have moved to Melbourne (I have lived all over the world) and it is the most tollerant multicultural city in the world. I would not put the US above this great country, although I do not disput that the US had indeed welcomed many people of many races and given them a fair chance within its borders. But don't forget others have too.

Yes...I wouldn't begruge the Aussies! LOL! And a fine bunch they are. My basic point is that there is a peaceful and PROFITABLE solution for all here. And I guess...yes...if you can't beat em join em!

Lets face it....the U.S. is going to be in the region as long as there is oil. I am not saying this is right....I am saying that it is a FACT! The sooner the people in this region learn to work with the hand they are delt...the sooner they will take advantage of that hand and become prosperous. There ancient tribal religious divisions only allow the tribal and religious leaders to profit while the poor stay poor and the women endure an unjustified and sickening condition. Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity


OK. So lets look at it from the other direction. Lets say we are in the middle east discussing this. We think that those heathen American soldiers should get out of our sacred country. This is our land, this is muslim land for muslim people and these Americans should get the hell out. If they want our oil they can buy it on the open market, same as everyone else, they are not welcome here. And I may just be an ant biting the ankles of a giant, but as long as I can make them sting, even if only a little, I will.

Now I am just playing devils advocate here. But see the other side of the coin? It is the classic case of an unstoppable force meeting an unmovable object. And someone needs to stop and look at all the death and destruction this is causing, the human rights abuses - on both sides - the cost of this, not just finacial, but moral and spiritual cost too.

If America were what it would like to see itself as, it would be the bigger party and put this right. Change is possible. There are 360 degrees in a circle, the US could choose to turn it's policy any which way it wanted to. It is after all a super power.

reply to post by charles1952

Originally posted by charles1952
I'm not looking at this as a religious or personal matter. You don't believe it was disruption; the police, District Attorney, jury and judge thought it was. The Irvine 10 have at least two competent lawyers. There's nothing you can do about it now except perhaps send them encouragement e-mails (You don't need the prison address, they're not going to serve any time) or money to fund their appeals (if they make them).

Lots of people may not like the decision, but that doesn't make it wrong.

But the whole point of this thread is to be looking at it in a religious manner. The contention here is that if it wasn't for the religious elements at play in this case (muslim and jewish), the conviction would probably be way less (and probably non-existent), as it is in the vast majority of similar cases, highlighting this specific case as an example of Islamophobia. Heck, one of the Deputy DA's arguments was that "Freedom of speech is not absolute, because some members of the audience became frightened and unsettled during the disruption".

Would there be a similar argument if the defendants were not muslim?

Dear babloyi,

The contention here is that if it wasn't for the religious elements at play in this case (muslim and jewish), the conviction would probably be way less (and probably non-existent), as it is in the vast majority of similar cases, highlighting this specific case as an example of Islamophobia.

1.) The conviction was way less. A misdemeanor with no jail time? That's nothing.
2.) The vast majority of similar cases are dismissed? What do you call a similar case? This was prosecuted under a particular California law prohibiting the disruption of lawful meetings. It was part of a plan, on the part of a large number of people, to break the law. The offence occured on private property. It was organized by a group that had already been punished at least once in the recent past. How many cases like this do you really think there are? And you think that this one was only prosecuted because those charged are Muslims?

Heck, one of the Deputy DA's arguments was that "Freedom of speech is not absolute, because some members of the audience became frightened and unsettled during the disruption". Would there be a similar argument if the defendants were not muslim

Yes, there would be. Any lawyer prosecuting a case involving a free speech defense will raise the "free speech is not absolute" line. And it's quite true. I don't know what the DA's reasoning was, but his conclusion is absolutely correct. Raising that argument has nothing to do with religion, it's simply competent lawyering.

If I have misunderstood you, or made an error, please write and correct me.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952

Originally posted by charles1952
1.) The conviction was way less. A misdemeanor with no jail time? That's nothing.

I'm not sure I understand....you had an expectation of jail time for first-time offenders of a class C misdemeanor?
That is even beyond what I was saying.

And yeah, forget most such cases being dismissed, most never even reach the court. Most are never even arrested...the maximum is them being escorted away. As an example of a similar:
rabbibrant.com...
The people in question were never charged (although they were forcibly removed, unlike this case, where the students voluntarily got up and left), and the group that organised this (and many other protests regularly all over the US, including California), the "Jewish Voice for Peace", gave a press release when the "Irvine 11" were convicted, noted that they were never convicted, showing this as a clear sign of the rise of islamophobia in the country.

Originally posted by charles1952

Heck, one of the Deputy DA's arguments was that "Freedom of speech is not absolute, because some members of the audience became frightened and unsettled during the disruption". Would there be a similar argument if the defendants were not muslim

Yes, there would be. Any lawyer prosecuting a case involving a free speech defense will raise the "free speech is not absolute" line. And it's quite true. I don't know what the DA's reasoning was, but his conclusion is absolutely correct.

But I just gave you the deputy DA's reasoning. He said "members of the audience became frightened and unsettled during the disruption".

So if some members of the audience were islamophobic (had an irrational fear of muslims), then freedom of speech is okay to curtail?
It certainly has everything to do with religion.

Originally posted by Shamatt
reply to post by SplitInfinity

 

OK. So lets look at it from the other direction. Lets say we are in the middle east discussing this. We think that those heathen American soldiers should get out of our sacred country. This is our land, this is muslim land for muslim people and these Americans should get the hell out. If they want our oil they can buy it on the open market, same as everyone else, they are not welcome here. And I may just be an ant biting the ankles of a giant, but as long as I can make them sting, even if only a little, I will.

Now I am just playing devils advocate here. But see the other side of the coin? It is the classic case of an unstoppable force meeting an unmovable object. And someone needs to stop and look at all the death and destruction this is causing, the human rights abuses - on both sides - the cost of this, not just finacial, but moral and spiritual cost too.

If America were what it would like to see itself as, it would be the bigger party and put this right. Change is possible. There are 360 degrees in a circle, the US could choose to turn it's policy any which way it wanted to. It is after all a super power.

And in what way would you have the U.S. change or turn it's policy? We have been there before most of the current names of Middle Eastern countries existed. We were in the region when Teddy Roosevelt was President...before WWI. We were fighting Germany then as well as fighting the Nazis during WWII.

The majority of locating, developing and setting up infrastructure for OIL drilling and refinement was done...and is still being done...by U.S. companies. When the people of this region were dependent upon Dates and Olives as their primary export and a person was lucky to own a camel or even luckier to own a herd of sheep....we were teaching them how to profit off their only true natural resourse.

After WWII we could have EASILY just stayed and took over the oil fields...but we didn't and we purchased the oil rather than just take it. Current politics that decry U.S. personel as intruders upon sacred land only seem to apply when we are not neede to make them money. Split Infinity

reply to post by babloyi

Dear babloyi,

Thank you for your kind response. You're right, I was not clear with my effort at communicating. With your permission I will try again, after I let out some tension.

You see, I had just finished my reply to you, I had only 877 characters left, when I pushed the preview key and ATS died on me. I will try again, but it will be different from what I intended.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by SplitInfinity


Yes, you are right, The US - and other western countries, have picked and chosen their friends over the years. Being there to help them set up an industry (From which you will profit greatly at every step) or to help fight the Russians, for example. And of course they were happy for the help. But this time they soldiers are uninvited and unwanted. The diference is guest or trespasser, I suppose. Invited in or asked to leave. And if you are asked to leave and don't...... It is not the same as being there to help them when this time they don't want your help. Any way. I suppose as many of them are happy you are there helping to reconstruct as there are unhappy and biting at your ankles. Or winning, as they will see it when you all do finally pull out, and your very unclear objectives appear to have been completely unmet. Oh, the UK are just as guilty. It isn't just the US, I'm not picking on you! And you have to ask yourslef why there is the need for so much reconstruction. And why so many from accross the region flocked to Afganistan and Iraq in order to join their brothers against the US invaders, thus swelling the enimy ranks and making the whole problem worse. Dude, what a mess. And don't ask me what the answer is, I don't know. It seems to have gone too far. The US will pull out as planned I guess, the 'enimy' will claim victory as the US - whichever way they spin ot for domestic consumption - will not have acheived any of the goals they stated allong the way - except perhaps killing OBL, and they did that in PAKISTAN, which is not even supposed to be part of the arena. (If you believe that story) I think this is why the killings are being stepped up now by the Obama admin...... Dismantle enough of the current setup you can claim a win on the Al Qaeda when the time comes. Enough people will buy this to win the next election. You wait and see.

reply to post by Shamatt


NONSENSE!

1. It's NOT a phobia to take seriously a power block/"religion" who's FOUNDING DOCUMENTS and leaders for many hundreds of years have asserted their

--RIGHT
--DUTY
--OBLIGATION
--'RIGHTEOUSNESS'

TO LOP OFF THE HEADS of all who are not LIKE them in their beliefs.

2. particularly given that they have REPEATEDLY--in various waves--as they have sociologically gained power--often through birthrate--ACTED OUT SUCH VALUES most ruthlessly, brutally, horrifically, with great glee at their own blood lust.

3. It would be suicidally idiotic for NON-Muslims to ignore such realities and PRETEND that they were merely the idle rants of the 'RELIGION of "peace"' instead of the blood wallowing, blood letting war cries of the bloody 'religion' of pieces--of bloody necks, bloody wrists and bloody ankles.

reply to post by BO XIAN


Well, there is no point having a discussion with you. Your mind is made up and sealed closed, locking in the phobia and hatred, keeping out the love and the light.

I'll not waste my time with you, it is obvious you have nothing to add to this except hatred, and that is not what we need.

Dear babloyi,

Thanks for giving me a chance to try to explain, I appreciate your honesty and passion.

1.) The conviction was way less. A misdemeanor with no jail time? That's nothing.
I'm not sure I understand....you had an expectation of jail time for first-time offenders of a class C misdemeanor?
That is even beyond what I was saying.

You are quite right, I did not have an expectation of jail time for them. My thought was that their punishment seemed fairly mild. I was not suggesting it should be made any harsher.

And yeah, forget most such cases being dismissed, most never even reach the court. Most are never even arrested...the maximum is them being escorted away. As an example of a similar:
rabbibrant.com...
The people in question were never charged (although they were forcibly removed, unlike this case, where the students voluntarily got up and left), and the group that organised this (and many other protests regularly all over the US, including California), the "Jewish Voice for Peace", gave a press release when the "Irvine 11" were convicted, noted that they were never convicted, showing this as a clear sign of the rise of islamophobia in the country.

It may be roughly similar, religious students protesting at an indoors speech, but that's where it ends.
Was the law the same? Only if it was in California (it was in Louisiana). Was there disruption as required by the law? I don't know, maybe you could argue that eleven students interrupting are more disruptive than five. Did the organizing group have a record of violations? I don't know. Besides, there weren't any Muslims involved in your example. Does one religious group attacking a different one make a difference? It may. (Oh, and the press release was from a group that went into the demonstration believing there was too much criticism of Muslims, the occupation should end now, the world should not buy Israeli items, and other non-typical positions.)

Finally, remember my speeding example where I was ticketed for three over? It might not have seemed fair to me, but it was legal. Prosecutors are given some leeway in decision making (prosecutorial discretion). Sometimes it can be abused, but no one is seriously thinking of getting rid of it.

But I just gave you the deputy DA's reasoning. He said "members of the audience became frightened and unsettled during the disruption".

Ok, I'm sure that was said, but I'm equally sure that wasn't the basis for bringing the charges. The law requires at least a disruption of the meeting, just fear wouldn't have done it.

So if some members of the audience were islamophobic (had an irrational fear of muslims), then freedom of speech is okay to curtail?

It wasn't the members of the audience that disrupted the meeting, their internal feelings had nothing to do with it. Besides, I don't know that anyone had a fear of Muslims. But even if they did, in those circumstances, a certain level of fear would be reasonable and expected.

It certainly has everything to do with religion.

I'm sorry, but that is just restating your opinion. This case can be explained perfectly well without bringing religion into it at all.

But again, I may be miscommunicating. Oh well, I'll keep trying. And I hope you'll keep trying with me. The corruption of the legal system is a terrible thing, and, if its happening (as in Quartzite, AZ) it should be pounced on and mauled to a quick death.

With respect,
Charles1952