The vedic civilization and evolution of society in India

The pension system / Old people

There was NO state system of pensions, even for a soldier killed in war.

If sustenance of a soldier's family was an issue, King gave agricultural land to the family.

Old people lived in the family. Old people were always respected by tradition, and well cared for. People had a very high life expectancy in the time of Krsna. Most people lived more than 100 years. So each family had at least four generations present in the same house.

Old people (men who did not choose 'vanprastha', and women) helped with household chores, helped in family business, and spent rest of the time in religious activities like study of religious books etc.

Old people managed the household when the young ones were away on travel etc. Travel is considered very important for 'Dwij' - the educated class. Traders travelled for increasing trade, Kings and king's officers for taking stock of conditions in the kingdom, and improving foreign relations etc, and Brahmins for imparting knowledge and conducting Yagna.

Vedic Economy - The Real Capitalist System

There were NO State controlled industries or agriculture in Bharat.

The wages of each trade (like farm worker, domestic worker, wood worker etc.), and price of essential commodities were decided by the king. But beyond that, the King had no role in the economy.

There were all kinds of industries in Bharat, concentrated in the cities, that produced agricultural implements, utensils, clothes, jewellery, chariots, boats etc. etc.

The free economic system meant incentive for producing goods of high quality, and thus living standards were high.

There was a decline in living standards with the decline of Vedic civilization. Industry suffered as Kings increased taxes, and warfare destroyed factories. There was a loss of knowledge and craftsmanship, which is visible in many excavation sites throughout India, where more recent layers of ruins indicate crude buildings compared to older layers which indicate better planned and executed buildings.

The brown, black and white - My own theory fit for a conspiracy site

The Egyptians were very good at keeping records in visual form, just like the pictorial language they used.
Much of what we know of ancient world is due to records preserved in Egyptian temples and other artifacts. I particularly like a representation of races in Egypt and around it.

The history of Bharat was always written in books. A very large part of our books was destroyed by Aurangzeb that existed in Taxshila and Nalanda universities. Only few books survived the dawn of the printing press, that were from private collections. But Bharat did not have a tradition of drawing pictures. Our books used words to describe, and words lack the impact that pictures have.

My research indicates a world in the time of Krsna that was totally different from today's world. Bharat was the dominant civilization (of brown people), other major civilization being that of Egypt (of brown people). People were starting to appear in the area near Tigris river (Non-white, but fairer brown), and in Mongolia (Mongoloid).

My reasearch says that three distinct white races have came to earth just before Biblical flood or somewhat after:
a. Yuezhi or Kushan that appeared in Tarim basin (Xinxiang, China)
b. Nordics or Vikings that appeared in Northern Europe
c. Hebrews and Southern Europeans that appeared somewhere in Central Europe

The people of Atlantis (brown) migrated to Egypt after destruction of Atlantis (I feel between 8000-10000 years ago). The story of Atlantis has come from Egypt, which is logical.

My theory is that each race that came to earth consisted of a few thousand people. These people were diverse genetically and a mix of languages when they arrived. They multiplied and spread after their arrival. The population grew quickly as large amount of new land appeared after the end of the last ice age, land which was unpopulated, and very rich in biological resources. The first inhabitants on these lands in Europe and Central Asia would have been tribal people, just like tribals existing in some parts of India to this day. These tribals were pushed out by smarter people who arrived from ET civilizations.

The problem with genetics is that it makes a lot of assumptions. The story of a single homo sapiens out of Africa is interesting but somehow does not appeal to anybody, otherwise we would not have so much strife as we see today. We have this constant friction of races, which is much larger than a mere friction of religions. So we must take the theory of diverse origins seriously.

The questions to my theory are
1. If ETs came, where are the ships they used -> Possible ships dropped off passengers and went back.
2. Why there are no written records -> They would not leave if 'insertions' were done in a sneaky manner.
3. Why would not these people visit now if that is the case?

And I believe that has to do with something extra-ordinary and unique, something which is just an accident. Something like a intra-stellar war that forced people to flee their planets never to return. But why so many different races appeared almost at the same time on Earth? I do not have a definite answer, but I suspect that it has to do with some war like event that involved many planets, which forced people out in search for another home almost at the same time.

One thing that strikes me is the predominant "Kshatriya" character of white races and even Mongoloids. It can be explained only by my theory, as people running away from a war will most likely be soldiers and rulers. The rest of the society is likely to perish.

Rice vs. wheat

The people of Bharat were rice eaters. There is no surprise here. The weather in the Indian subcontinent was colder and wetter in the time of Krsna. Rice was grown all over north India.

Wheat was brought here by people of West Asia (Babylonia and Assyria), that came from a drier climate.

The land of Bharat was so productive that little effort was required to cultivate it. Food was plentiful. The phrase "rivers of milk flowed in Bharat" is true.

Qualities of a King

The well being of a nation is possible only if the King is virtuous and just.

If king is corrupted, the administration run by him will also be corrupted, and this will spread like wildfire to the entire nation.

Veda directs man to 'select' a King of proper education and qualities. It also directs man to depose a King who falls into vice. Arya people are always advised to uphold 'dharm', and not to accept the preach of any person if against Veda.


1. Education - a King must have completed Vedic education prescribed for Kshatriya.
2. Valour - He must have demostrated leadership qualities and superior knowledge of weapons
3. Strength - A man of superior physical and mental qualities
4. Nationality - Must be born within the kingdom / nation.
5. Pleasing personality - must be acceptable to the public as a leader
6. Character - is of a demonstrable good charater - follows rules of dharm


The following are prohibited for a king:

1. Hunting
2. Gambling
3. Sleeping in daytime
4. Keeping jesters in court, any company of jesters
5. Speaking untruth
6. Spending much time with women
7. Drinking wine, or using intoxicating substances
8. Singing and playing instruments
9. Partcipating in / organizing dance
10. Wandering (Travelling without purpose)

11. Badmouthing
12. Taking a decision wihout thinking (King has advisors to give advice on important matters)
13. Un-necessary animosity (hatred)
14. Jealousy
15. Disrespect of Learned men
16. Spending money on wasteful objectives
17. Foul speech (excessive anger)
18. Punishment without due legal process

Who is Shudra

Shudra is very much part of Arya society. A Shudra is a person who does not have the intellect for completing Vedic education, but has a desire to serve. So a Shudra takes up a job either in a Brahmin's home (or Gurukul), or in State service (a soldier, chariot driver, horse keeper, elephant keeper, cook, boatman etc.), or with a Vaishya (farm hand, clerk, porter, tradesman etc.).

A shudra is bound to the rituals of Arya society - agnihotra, yagna, teerth yatra and daan.

A Ritvij performs sanskars for Shudra (if Shudra is unable to recite Veda mantra). Sanskars depend upon the desire of the person to perform these ceremonies (as some of these can be expensive). Sanskars are NOT DENIED to Shudra.

A child of Shudra can learn from Sanyaasi, even if denied admission to the Gurukul. While getting a martial education (weapons training) may be difficult for Shudra (due to non-admission), the education of dharm is available to everyone, through Sanyaasi, if not in Gurukul.

The villagers held the Sanyaasi in high esteem, some of whom were Shudra earlier, who progressed to Brahmin (within same birth) by the power of 'tapa'.

Who decides who is Brahmin etc.

a. The Rishi/Acarya (Teacher) at the time of graduation ceremony.
b. The King for householders
c. Ritvij for Vanprasthi and Sanyaasi (Rishi / Muni / Tapasvi, Sanyaasi)

The favourite method of deciding such contention was 'Shashtrarth", a mental duel between the aspirant and an expert, that was judged by a neutral party.

reply to post by vedatruth


Visual differentiation between classes, and Sanyaasi

There was a dress code for each class of people. This dress code was used when going to a public place.

Sanyaasi wear saffron coloured clothes, with a saffron headgear to indicate their status as a Sanyaasi.

Both men and women used jewellery but NO makeup. Makeup is not allowed in Vedic society. Use of perfume/garlands is allowed.

The Brahmin did not use jewellery or makeup at all. A Brahmin is supposed to live a very simple life, like an ascetic throughout life. So it is a sweet irony that top of the pyramid of the society actually lived the simplest life.

So how can a Shudra despise a Brahmin, when Brahmin does not enjoy any material objects at all.

Veda and Woman

Veda treats women with respect and care. I shall quote a number of verses to make my case.

But first let us look at the socioeconomic angle:

a. Equal right to education - women are educated in Gurukul, or at home just like boys.

b. Workplace - Women normally tended to the household. The 'earning' jobs were normally for men.

It seems unequal at first, but not so, when you deeply analyze. Children are not well cared for when women work. A child is the primary responsibility of a mother till the age of 6-12, when a child enters Gurukul. The job of educating the child also falls on the mother, till that age.

Second is economic opportunity. Women displace men in the workplace often causing distress to other families.

Third is type of work. Women do not go to war in Vedic system. This is the tradition. Women and children cannot be touched in a war.

Most of the jobs in the ancient world required hard labour, which a woman was not expected to do.

Women were teachers and employed in King's court as advisors just like the modern world.

Marriage and Dowry

The marriage with dowry is considered a 'degraded' type of marriage, which is prohibited for Dwij.

Arya people did not believe in excessive show of wealth. The marriage was a simple affair, when friends and family gathered with invited priests (at least two), and marriage ceremony was conducted AS a Agnihotra with Veda mantras.

Marriage ceremony is held in bride's house as per custom.

Invited guests were offered food and clothes (if within the means of the host), as was the custom.

There were no processions, no big feasts, no lengthy ceremony etc. The entire marriage ceremony is actually about two hours as per Vedic practice.

The marriage ceremony is conducted in daytime, as is the practice that Agnihotra should be done in sunlight.

The type of marriage that you see in modern India is against Veda, and is due to ignorance.

Preference for son / Abortion

Foeticide and infanticide are equal to killing a person in Veda, as a child in womb is considered a living person. So the punishment will be the same as for killing a person.

There was no abortion in Vedic India.

There was no reason to kill a girl child. Such practices have recent origins due to overpopulation, economic problems, and ignorance.

Woman in scriptures

yatra naryeste poojayante ramante tatra devta |
yatretastu na poojyante sarvastatrafalaah kriyah || (Manu)

The family, which respects women, obtains material wealth, pious qualities, and able children.
The family that does not, gets no return for all their efforts.

Teasmedeatah sada poojya bhushana-cha-chadnashneha |
Bhootikamenah-ae-nityam satkareshutsaveshu cha || (Manu)

The man who desire a good life, should keep his woman happy and contented by offering jewellery, clothes, food etc. as per the opportunity.

prajanartham mahabhaga poojaham grih-deeptayaah |
Striyah Shriyashcha geheshu na vishesho-asti kashchana || (Manu)

Women are the 'bringer of good luck for children', to be respected, lighthouse of household, representation of wealth. Women are same as the respect a man gets due to his position and wealth.

----------------------------

Following is the translation of verses only -

"The woman has been given the job (by God) of giving birth and of upbringing of children, of maintaining relations with society, and of managing the household."

"The woman is responsible for birth and upbringing of children, actions as per dharm, caring for family etc., and the benefit from ancestors (guidance etc.) is due to woman." (Here it points out that family gets the benevolance of ancestors if there is good woman in the house)

Originally posted by vedatruth
Veda and Woman

Veda treats women with respect and care. I shall quote a number of verses to make my case.

But first let us look at the socioeconomic angle:

a. Equal right to education - women are educated in Gurukul, or at home just like boys.

b. Workplace - Women normally tended to the household. The 'earning' jobs were normally for men.

It seems unequal at first, but not so, when you deeply analyze. Children are not well cared for when women work. A child is the primary responsibility of a mother till the age of 6-12, when a child enters Gurukul. The job of educating the child also falls on the mother, till that age.

Second is economic opportunity. Women displace men in the workplace often causing distress to other families.

Third is type of work. Women do not go to war in Vedic system. This is the tradition. Women and children cannot be touched in a war.

Most of the jobs in the ancient world required hard labour, which a woman was not expected to do.

Women were teachers and employed in King's court as advisors just like the modern world.

edit on 2-10-2011 by vedatruth because: (no reason given)

This is an interesting take. I have my own ideas on this, honestly. But as a thought exercise I am going to have to ponder this.

I'm going to post some music (hope that's OK).
From the Vaishnava tradition:
An inauguration of an ISKCON temple in southern India.

reply to post by halfoldman


This thread is about Vedic practices and "Vaishnav" people are a sect that came after decline of Vedic civilization. It will confuse readers of this thread as many Vaishnav practices are against Veda.

The Vedic Society - The Basic Principles

a. The 'varnn' or class system is made for smooth functioning of the society. It promotes people with virtue and intellect, and gives them the position to lead.
b. All people are advised to work hard - every class of persons. It is called 'athak parishram' - untiring effort - towards betterment of self - first spiritually then materially - in a way that keeps dharm first, nation second, and self last.
c. Veda is against wasting time. Sleeping in daytime is prohibited (unless sick). The time should be spent either in work, or in gaining knowledge, or in imparting knowledge etc. Making up stories, and telling such stories is prohibited. That would make today's TV and movie world unsuitable for Vedic people.
d. Cheating, stealing, lying, hurting innocent (including animals) is prohibited.
e. Non-veg food (masanhar) is prohibited.
f. Disrespect of women, domestic violence, prostitution is prohibited.
g. Agreeing to heresy (speech against Veda) is prohibited.
h. A human is asked to be happy with what he got. A human should trust God and His kindness.
i. The top three varnn of educated people (Brahmin, Kshatriya, and Vaishya - called 'sabhya samaj' in Hindi) are given the responsibility of ensuring a good King, and good governance. It is NOT left just to the King's fancy to do what he pleases.

reply to post by vedatruth

Well, that's completely opposite to what I learnt, and Vaisnavava people today would say that they are promoting Vedic culture and principles, as well as the various scriptures (although they would follow the personalist stream, instead of the impersonalist approach, but they don't dismiss either).
It's fine if you choose another approach, but they would be very surprised to hear that they are not Vedic culture.

Originally posted by vedatruth
The Vedic Society - The Basic Principles

a. The 'varnn' or class system is made for smooth functioning of the society. It promotes people with virtue and intellect, and gives them the position to lead.
b. All people are advised to work hard - every class of persons. It is called 'athak parishram' - untiring effort - towards betterment of self - first spiritually then materially - in a way that keeps dharm first, nation second, and self last.
c. Veda is against wasting time. Sleeping in daytime is prohibited (unless sick). The time should be spent either in work, or in gaining knowledge, or in imparting knowledge etc. Making up stories, and telling such stories is prohibited. That would make today's TV and movie world unsuitable for Vedic people.
d. Cheating, stealing, lying, hurting innocent (including animals) is prohibited.
e. Non-veg food (masanhar) is prohibited.
f. Disrespect of women, domestic violence, prostitution is prohibited.
g. Agreeing to heresy (speech against Veda) is prohibited.
h. A human is asked to be happy with what he got. A human should trust God and His kindness.
i. The top three varnn of educated people (Brahmin, Kshatriya, and Vaishya - called 'sabhya samaj' in Hindi) are given the responsibility of ensuring a good King, and good governance. It is NOT left just to the King's fancy to do what he pleases.

Letter G: is it agreeing to speech against Veda's, or is it speech against Veda. I guess what I am getting at, is it allowed to debate the merits of Veda?

Hi veda. you were right, this is a fascinating thread. I know I've lived other lives..from some of my experiences, I'd say not only past lives on earth, but on other planets as well. I'll investigate this further, and I'll be watching this thread as it evolves.
thanks