The vedic civilization and evolution of society in India

God is only one. Anti-vedic means a person/society's behaviour is against rules given in Veda for man.

Man is free to believe in God, or not.

There are always people (at any given time on earth) that do not follow dharm. The % of people varies.

You may like Vedic rules or not is upto your wish and your mental makeup. But you will be judged by God by these rules.

It is true that no country in the world today is Vedic. It has been so for the last 2600 years.

Do you have to fear God? Yes. Every human must fear God. God is the King who gives gifts as well as punishments. Life sees good as well as bad, due to this fact.

Ashwamedh Yagna, Putreyeshti Yagna

A Yagna is organized for a specific purpose. A king organizes a yagna for benefit of people of his kingdom etc. Yagna were organized several times a year by Ikshvaku kings.

A yagna is similar to agnihotra. The procedure is same. The only difference is presence of Rishis and Munis that participate in yagna, and specific mantra that are recited.

The havi or offering to fire are as follows:

1. Samidha - a mixture of four types of plant matter (explained earlier)
2. Mishtanna - sweet rice, halwa, kheer, laddu etc.
3. Sthalipak - boiled rice (bhaat) with ghee
4. Fresh fruits (in absence of grains)
5. Cow ghee (clarified butter)

Authentic Valmiki Ramayan contains only description of Putreyeshti Yagna organized by King Dashrath. The offering of 'kheer' (rice cooked in sweet milk) was made in this yagna.

'Ashwa' or horse is a symbol of king. 'ashwa' is the vehicle used by a warrior, so having a horse is critical to success.

'Ashwamedh yagna' is a non-violent way of consolidating the power of the emperor. The horse selected for this purpose is NOT a sacrificial horse, but a ceremonial horse. The horse was accompanied by an army detachment carrying the flags of the emperor. The capitals that allowed the march were considered to have accepted the authority of the emperor.

A single horse cannot go to all the capitals at the same time. It is impossible. Several detachments with such ceremonial horses were sent to different capitals concurrently. The 'yagna' was started after ALL such detachments returned.

The kings of all 'janapada' were invited to participate in the yagna. And they did, as a fulfillment of the order of the emperor.

There was no horse sacrifice in the 'yagna'. Every yagna follows the practices of standard 'agnihotra' that so many Arya people do in home everyday.

Polygamy

I have been corrected on polygamy. Vedic society experienced a lot of stress in the waning period. This time saw a constant decline in the virtue of men. The girls were better off due to living in a shielded environment.

There were times when good men were in short supply. Means the number of marriageable girls was far more than good men available.

Two types of men - Learned brahmins and great warriors are held in deep esteem by Vedic society. Parents of girls would request such a man for marriage to their girl. It was a time when human relations were valued and deep bonds existed between good families. So refusing such an offer would have been considered rude.

The primary purpose of marriage is producing good children for continuation of family line. That requires both parents to be virtuous. So polygamy was not due to lustful acquisition of wives.

The same would have been true in Vaishya 'varnn' also to some extent where rich and successful merchants may have had more than one wife.

Polygamy does not mean a 'harem'. I do not see any instance of more than four wives.

Vedic tradition requires each wife to be given separate living quarters, and monthly allowances. So it is not possible for a poor person to marry many girls.

Purushmedh Yagna

Purush is a synonym for God. Humans are called 'praja' in Veda. Purush (God) is the symbol of dharm.

'medh' means preservation/protection.

The 'ashwamedh' yagna is for preservation/protection of country.
The 'purushmedh' yagna is for preservation/protection of dharm.

The hymns selected in each yagna corresponds to instructions relevant for that yagna.

'ashwamedh' is about responsibilities of the ruling class towards society.
'purushmedh' is about responsibilities of different classes towards dharm.

People forgot about such 'yagna' as most kings of Kaliyuga did not organize them. There are isolated attempts to organize such yagna. The discontinuity in Vedic education meant even priests were unable to understand Veda. I have explained painstakingly in my posts that Veda contains language that is almost un-intelligible to modern man. It is not Sanskrit that is in use in modern world. May be a few words match here and there, but that is not enough to understand Veda. Anybody who claims to understand Veda must first prove that he knows the language. I have seen that people talk about Veda without an iota of such knowledge. It is just unfortunate but in accordance with low character of man in Kaliyuga.

Valmiki Ramayan - Yuddha Kaand - chapter 65

7. You should know that the effort towards war that I made, and the victory that I gained with the bravery of my well-wishers, was not for you.

8. This effort was to protect myself from infamy, and to preserve my reputation. I have protected the great reputation of my clan by this action.

Note: Shri Rama was a truthful person. Sita made a mistake of forcing Laxman to send him away leading to her abduction. Sita was a wife of a Kshatriya prince. A 'kshatrani' must be as brave as the man. Sita's behaviour was not appropriate even if it was out of concern for her husband.

Warriors die in war. Wife of a warrior is not allowed to cry or show any weakness until the body is brought back. This is Arya tradition.

Valmiki Ramayan shows each character as a human - the good and the bad. Valmiki Ramayan does not depict Shri Rama as God anywhere. Rishi Valmiki lived and breathed Veda. There is only one God in Veda that does not take birth.

Shri Rama was a uniquely talented person, but countless kings like him have protected dharm and sustained vedic culture. It is quite foolish to make a God of Shri Rama.

reply to post by vedatruth


Vedic tradition is marriage within same 'varnn' and with the person of similar status. This would have created unique problems for Kshatriya community in times of great stress.

Vedic tradition allows a sort of marriage (Niyog) for widow, but this marriage is not very practical. The reality would have been that lady shall remain a widow for life, due to concern for children.

The old people in the family are left with the responsibility of caring for the widow. The shielding and segregation of women makes it very difficult for them to go out and earn a living. So stress without men would have been quite unbearable.

This is what happened post Mahabharat war. The widows did not send young children to Gurukul. The ladies stopped inviting learned men (Rishi/Sanyaasi) to households. The social system could not cope with the stress created from the war. This sowed the seeds of an illiterate generation of men. This was made worse by neglect of education prior to war by Duryodhan and co.

Yudhishtir was a just and able king. But the impact of war was so great that Bharat did not recover in the 36 years that Yudhishtir ruled. The loss to education system became permanent. Subsequent kings did little to reverse the tide.

I consider the decay of Vedic education system as the greatest factor in decline of Vedic society. Education is the blood that flows through the veins of a nation. You drain that blood, and the nation falls.

Fall of nation of Bharat is a big warning to modern nations - do not play with education. State is not there to provide jobs, it is there to provide education. Educational opportunities for all is the basis of a competitive society.

Geeta chapter 2 / verse 20

"Na jayate mriyete va kadachin
nayam bhutva bhavita va na bhuyah|
ajo nityah sashvato-atham puranno
na hanyate hanyamane sharire||"

The soul never takes birth, and never dies. It was never made, nor will it be made in future.
It has always been there since beginning. Soul does not die when the body is destroyed.

Geeta chapter 2 / verse 21

"Vedavinashinam nityam ya enam-ajam-avyayam|
katham sa purushah parth kam ghatyati hantikam||"

The soul is ever-lasting, without beginning and end, and unchangeable. How can a person kill or get somebody to kill a soul?

Geeta chapter 2 / verse 22

"Vasansi jeernani yatha vihay, navani grihannati naro-aparani|
thatha sharirani vihay jeernanya-anyaani sanyati navani dehi||"

Like a man throws away old worn out clothes and gets new clothes, a soul give up an old worn out body and gets a new body.

Geeta chapter 2 / verse 23

"Nainam chindanti shashtrani nainam dahati pavakah|
na chainam kledayanti-aapo na shochyati marutah||"

The soul cannot be pierced by any weapon, or burned by fire, or wet by water, or dried by wind.

Meritocracy

Meritocracy means that the positions of authority are given on merit.

The most important factor in true meritocracy is distribution of land. Land was the single most important denominator of wealth in the ancient world. Keeping currency (coins) in excessive quantities was neither safe, nor approved by dharm. Building large houses above requirement was also against dharm.

The income largely came from the land. Agriculture and rearing animals were the major occupations.

So if land is inherited (passed from father to son), the meritocracy will fail as son has no incentive to go to school and get a degree.

Owning land is considered a 'privilege' in Vedic society. The amount of land is the indicator of social position.

I have explained that land was given to warriors as reward. The question is if that reward was permanent or temporary?

The answer is 'temporary'. All land awards in Vedic system are 'temporary', including to sons of the King. The material benefit was linked to education, effort, and achievement.

I have tried to give readers the aspects of Vedic economy not available in books, and not covered anywhere. Because nobody has tried to examine why Vedic society declined. A society that has been so successful, and lasted so long seems to just fade away over just 2000 years. This is most illogical. The reason lies not in sudden fall in virtue of men (as almost all people believe) but dilution in the most important tenets of Vedic social structure. Bharat as a country was destined to fail, because it became a feudal society.

A tribal society can never achieve a meritocracy. Tribal society relies on 'loyalty', rather than capability. So a tribal king has to engage in excessive and constant violence to exert his authority.

The farmers and farm-hands

The awardee of the land becomes a businessman in Vedic system, whether Kshatriya or Vaishya. The land was worked by servants. There is good reason to believe that neither Kshatriya nor Vaishya directly worked the land.

The awardees of the land clearly changed as the land changed hands. But that would not have affected the servants too much, as their job was safe. The new awardee would employ them to do the same work.

So this system does not affect the worker class. The churn happens in the educated classes. The loss of privilege would have driven the educated classes to achieve. This social competition is necessary to take a society to great heights.

But this system requires very strong kings. Veda tells the king should be like 'Indra', brave, great warrior, and pious.

There would have been dissent in the people losing privilege. So people would have left the country on their own as well. Such a system requires strong army and internal security structures.

The best governance systems are created by Bhagwan Manu

The social, political, and legal systems created by Bhagwan Manu for the nation of Aryavrata are the ideal for any nation on earth. It is not possible to have any system better than this.

An absence of Vedic system on Earth in current time does not mean that this system has become any less important. Earth has seen worse catastrophes in the past. It is just that, a catastrophe. But all bad times pass, just like good times. As night follows day, earth sees bad times after good times. A God loving person always stays an optimist, and always strives to get closer to God. Veda says that even if a God loving person lives in a country of 'adharmi', he should not stray from dharm. It is better to die than to accept falsehood. The reason is no man can kill the soul. The birth of a soul in a bad time or a bad place is punishment from God for previous sins. There is no benefit in continuing to sin, and spoil the future prospects also. God does heed to prayers and a soul can get a better human birth next time where soul can live life according to dharm.

Sins committed in ignorance

Sins are sins, whether knowingly or due to ignorance.

The result of sins is always pain.

Entire countries suffer due to preponderance of sins in that country. Lanka fell at the height of its power and glory due to sinful behaviour of its population. This happens to EVERY 'rakshas' country. Such a country falls when everybody thinks it to be invincible. God is all powerful and acts in ways not easily understood by man. But God acts for sure, and the results are always dramatic.

The Spiritual Journey

I advise people not to believe in propaganda. The spiritual journey begins from gaining knowledge of 'dharma', and then advancing to purification of soul. Purification is achieved by not doing any more sins, and performing good deeds. It takes time, so one should be patient. Any Guru that does not preach 'yama' and 'niyam' should be avoided as such association will result in further pain. Only a Guru who preaches 'yama' and 'niyam' is the true one. It is very hard to find an able Guru. It is OK if you are unable to find one. A person who follows 'yama' and 'niyam' will eventually gain enough good karmas that God will guide him to a real Guru.

God is the first Guru of every human. Every human Guru bows to God. God is there for everybody. Every soul has a connection to God. So one should never become desperate if he is unable to find a human Guru.

Your soul has been through countless previous lives, so one should never expect this life or the next in which soul can become free. It may take several more lives. A traveller who starts on the right path, and keeps on walking eventually reaches the destination. A traveller who takes the wrong path never reaches the destination.

Yogi realizes Veda in Samadhi

Knowledge of Veda is not required for Yoga. The eight parts of Yoga nowhere mention to first gain knowledge of Veda, or even knowledge of Sanskrit.

A Yogi automatically gains knowledge of Veda in a state of Samadhi. God is everybody's Guru, and God gives the knowledge of Veda to a Yogi.

So many Rishis/learned men of India over ages have accepted Veda as eternal knowledge, as this is what all Yogis have always realized.

Even Ravann of Lanka knew Veda only, though he did not follow.

The white race / mongol race have not seen a Yogi yet due to small amount of time these races have been on earth, and not yet developed spiritually. They will also eventually see Yogis who shall accept Veda.

People sin due to peer pressure / social factors

People drink, gamble, eat meat due to family and friends doing the same thing, even if they realize it is wrong.

People feel suffocated in an economic system that does not allow an honest and hard-working man to live a decent life. Pressures at work, excessive taxes, high cost of education and other necessary services leaves a person always in a survival mode, and unable to contribute much towards good causes by donating money and labour. Severe competition at work translates to a stressful life devoid of worship of God.

The world will see increasingly tough times, as concepts of 'free' markets fail, trade and labour imbalances get out of control, and politicians run out of ideas.

The idea of controlling world through control of money is seriously flawed. It will only lead to gross injustice and chaos in the world.

Everybody should reflect - why do we submit to mental and economic slavery? Is this what God prescribed for man?

The gold and silver based currency - is it possible in modern world

The currency was gold/silver based in Shri Rama's time, and this continued till the Chinese introduced paper notes to Earth.

Was it a good move to transition to paper currency?

Is there a shortage of gold/silver in the world, that use in currency is not possible?

Paper currency has been misused heavily by all sorts of corrupt rulers, driving hard working people to poverty and hunger. Is this our definition of justice?
The depreciation of currency is injustice to poor people.

The currency in circulation of all countries of the world can be easily converted into gold. Enough gold is available for that.

The solution is use of gold thread in paper currency, so that existing system is protected, but the notes gain real value. The gold content of note should be a significant % of face value. This system will remove fake notes as gold can be checked by detectors (light emissions).

I favour a single issuer of currency in the world, that issues at least a part-gold based currency. The uniform currency will remove so many problems faced by people today, and will make trade far more efficient.

Vedic wisdom and Greece

There is no logic of making loans to somebody who cannot repay. A lender has as much responsibility for the loan as the debtor.

It is logical that lender suffers loss for his mistake. It is also logical that debtor suffers for his mistake too. The correct approach is loss of sovereignity for Greece, appointment of an administrator or governor on behalf of the lenders, that rules the country and collects on the debt from the taxes for a fixed period.

Germany has done the same when paying war reparations. This situation is no different.

Creating virtual money or inflating money to pay for debt is the worst solution. It does not address the factors that creates such debt - reckless spending by corrupt politicians. It penalizes poor and middle class savers for the mistakes of the powerful. This is another form of injustice.

Poor vs. Vedic thought

The most important issue is how poor are treated in Vedic system.

1. The first and foremost issue is agriculture. Food production was a profitable industry in Vedic time. Agricultural labour had decent income. The King ensured that wages were enough for people to live decently.

2. There is a true story of a king losing his kingdom and becoming a wood-cutter. He could make both ends meet by getting wood from the forest and selling it in the city. The commodity prices were enough to sustain people living off the land.

3. There was a better prospect of a Brahmin falling into poverty than a shudra. Many brahmins lived off donations, and donation is an iffy kind of income. An uneducated/dropout brahmin can become poor as he cannot teach, or do sanskar/yagna, and he has no other professional skills. The best option for such brahmin was to rear cows and sell milk. Brahmins are always donated money or cows wherever such instances appear. Donation of land is unheard off. There are instances of a brahmin becoming a warrior and winning land in battle. Such a brahmin essentially becomes a kshatriya. Ravann was brahmin by birth.

4. There is no explicit State support for the poor in Vedic system. There is no socialism that every poor must get state dole. The king must ensure a good economy that people prosper. The poor can go to the king and get a donation if king is benevolent. Otherwise a poor must stay happy with his condition.

5. There was no poor person in Shri Rama's rule because:

a. He was a benevolent king who donated generously.
b. He was efficient adninistrator - so economy was very good.
c. He did not spend money on wasteful objectives.

6. I think the most important aspect of Vedic culture is small government. The number of people employed in state service was fairly small compared to total population. The capital was deployed into productive areas. This would have ensured good all-round employment.

Mahabharat - the stories of Drone and Sudama

Drone and Sudama are brahmins. Drone was student of Guru Parshuram, and Sudama was student of Sandeepan rishi.

Both Drone and Sudama start their professional lives in hardship. Both were learned and capable. This points to something seriously wrong with their places of residence. When meritorious students are unable to find jobs, we have the biggest indicator of collapse of a society.

Drone eventually gets employment in Kuru capital. Sudama stayed poor for a long time until he met his childhood friend Krishna one day. Krishna gives money to Sudama that transforms his life.

The story of Drone and Sudama tells that many Kings in Bharat no longer followed Vedic precepts. The Bharat was already divided - between kingdoms that were more rigorous followers of dharm, and those who just followed the rituals but not the precepts.

Rituals like agnihotra are important but effective only when combined with self-study, 'daan' and 'yagna'. The purification of the soul is achieved by understanding the meaning of the mantra. Just reciting the mantra is not enough.

This is the story of Pundits in India. The 'dharm' increasinly became ritualized. Brahmins lost the capability to understand Veda due to loss of Gurukul system, and decline in true teachers. Over time, people forgot rituals as well, and the society became sort of religion-less leading to invention of new religions like Buddhism.

All this due to loss of financial support to Gurukuls that sustained Vedic knowledge.

My message to all readers is - if you are interested in Vedic religion, start by an effort to understand it. Jumping into the rituals or 'yoga' will not provide a good foundation.

I have provided enough material in this thread for the starters. The key is 5 rules of 'yama' followed by five rules of 'niyam'. If somebody can follow 'yama', he should then strive to gain knowledge of other aspects of 'dharm'.

The start is of course eating vegetarian food. It is not a problem though. Mildly spiced fragrant vedic food is delicious.