The vedic civilization and evolution of society in India

reply to post by ipsedixit


If you believe in God, you have to believe that God made certain laws, and these laws are universal.

One has to understand why God made the Universe at all. One can argue that there was no need.

The first mantra of RigVeda itself explains the purpose - the universe was made for the souls. These souls took various forms of plants, animals and humans according to their karmas from previous creation.

Veda tell us that earth lasts a day of Brahma (14 manvantar or 4.3 billion years), and then the earth and universe are destroyed and stay in that state for night of Brahma - another 4.3 billion years. Soul stays in a state of coma (Sushupt-avastha, like in death) for that 4.3 billion years, but the karmas stay the same. Despite such a long period to new creation, the soul still has to face the results of karmas from previous creation.

So there is no running away from karmas.

I can believe that I became Buddha or enlightened, but that does not help me. Only God knows if I am enlightened or not. There is no benefit of declaring my 'enlightenment' just to get appreciation of public. It will push me into hell.

Veda has concept of 'moksha' or liberation of soul. A liberated soul automatically gets knowledge of all matters, and even control of matter. I cannot write the power of Yogi here, as it is beyond the comprehension of readers of this forum. All I can say is truth always stays truth even if spoken by one person. A falsehood stays a falsehood even if spoken by one hundred million. God has power over countless souls in the Universe, and acts of souls on this earth have no special significance for Him.

A soul has to prove itself to God. God does not have to prove itself to a soul. So self-created beliefs have no value.

Buddhism starts on a very ordinary level of human activity.

If you go to college to learn how to service automobiles and the teacher starts to teach you how to service automobiles and you start to call everything into question asking why no references are being made to God and the Vedas, you would be in a situation similar to this one with regard to Buddhism.

Buddhism doesn't reference God. Buddha purposely kept silent about God. He offered no comment on the subject. He simply taught people what to do if they wanted to realize what he had realized.

It's very, very simple and down to earth. He almost didn't teach it because it is so subtle. He didn't think anyone would "get it."

Originally posted by ipsedixit
Buddhism starts on a very ordinary level of human activity.

If you go to college to learn how to service automobiles and the teacher starts to teach you how to service automobiles and you start to call everything into question asking why no references are being made to God and the Vedas, you would be in a situation similar to this one with regard to Buddhism.

Buddhism doesn't reference God. Buddha purposely kept silent about God. He offered no comment on the subject. He simply taught people what to do if they wanted to realize what he had realized.

It's very, very simple and down to earth. He almost didn't teach it because it is so subtle. He didn't think anyone would "get it."

This is a very good summary. Buddhism is a modifier to what ever spiritual beliefs you have. It enhances.

It would, however, seem that the Vedas would disallow Buddhism as it is practiced by most. In Veda, Veda is supreme. What isn't contained in the belief system is nonexistent (if not in reality, at least in practice). Veda does seem to be compatible with anything else, and is singularly exclusive.

Having said all of that, I still find it to be an intriguing thread relating intriguing information.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
This is a very good summary. Buddhism is a modifier to what ever spiritual beliefs you have. It enhances.

It would, however, seem that the Vedas would disallow Buddhism as it is practiced by most. In Veda, Veda is supreme. What isn't contained in the belief system is nonexistent (if not in reality, at least in practice).

I agree. Buddhism is really a mind derived discipline that is very well organized intellectually and which leads to profound realizations about the human condition. It is completely independant of what one believes about God or how society should live.

The Vedas seem to be interpreted as God derived prescriptions for all parts of individual and social life, a sort of "lifestyle" dictated by God.

Buddhism belongs with all the other man created disciplines.

The basis of Vedic religion (dharm)

Yes. it is true that the only justification of 'dharm' is that it is started by God Himself, and Veda contains the instructions of God.

God is called 'Purohit', 'Dev', 'Ritvij', and 'Hotar' in the first 'mantra' of 'RigVeda'. So God Himself is doing the 'Yagna', that creates and sustains the Universe.

'Yagna' is nothing but 'karma' or actions. Each soul is also doing 'yagna' by performing actions.

The social system established by Aryavrata kings was in accordance with Veda. It is evident from Ramayan that not everybody accepted this social system. It is also evident that Arya kings did not destroy such non-Arya people, just enforced segregation of Arya and non-Arya societies.

It has taken me several years to reconcile with the status of 'shudra' in Arya society - the part about Shudra not able to own agricultural land. Only Dwij are owners (rather users) of land, and King being the primary owner. Shudra can fall into poverty very easily due to loss of work, or old age. Land was the social security in Vedic society. State did not provide any pensions. Family had to take care of old people.

If a man becomes a non-believer in Arya society, he must have lost his land.

Please note that 'Vanar' was a classless society. Rakshas was also a classless society. I believe 'deva', 'danav', 'gandharva', 'sur' and 'asur' people also maintained classless societies. There are certain advantages to a classless society, but there are disadvantages as well.

A classless society can also be in accordance with Veda. But it requires a race of very high spiritual development, so not considered appropriate by Rishis for earth-dwellers.

Vedic concepts are complex, but Vedic religion is quite simple

Veda is very difficult to master. It requires a very high degree of physical and spiritual capacity. Sanskrit language (the language used in scriptures) is also difficult to learn.

But religion is actually quite simple. The set of practices to be followed is as simple as any other religion. Vedic religion is actually much easier to adopt and follow than many other religions, including many sects in India which have complex practices and rituals.

The vernacular Sanskrit language (example Manu Smriti, Ramayan) is not at all difficult. The first thing that strikes a reader of Sanskrit is conciseness. Sanskrit word construction and sentence construction uses minimum letters and space. Sanskrit has a remarkable capacity to express using the least numbers of words.

Vedic religion is primarily about developing a character of virtue. The daily agnihotra, participation in yagna, donations, inviting learned to house etc. are very natural and very easy to follow.

The classless Vedic society

A classless Vedic society is perfectly possible - a society of 'dev' or learned people. If a race is so advanced physically and spiritually that all children are born with the intellectual capacity to understand Veda.

If all people are intelligent, there will be no 'shudra' - only brahmin, kshatriya, and vaishya.

Such a society will need a high degree of mechanization, as available pool of labour will be low. People will have to do the work themselves. Like an engineer will have to build his machine himself or together with other engineers, as no labour is available.

Vedic education for child of Shudra

A shudra can improve social status by promotion to a higher class - but is is very difficult in real life as a shudra would not have the time for self-study, or the means to get company of the Learned. The best avenue is to get a son into a Gurukul.

If a shudra family is pious, and invites Sanyaasi regularly into the household (for guidance), it is quite likely that a good son is born into the family, and Sanyaasi helps to get that son into a Gurukul.

There must have been a criteria for admittance into the Gurukul, and good disposition, the way to speak, manners etc. would have been critical.

Bad son can cause loss of privilege

Even children of Kshatriya and Vaishya were denied admission into Gurukul for not meeting admission criteria. So there is no guarantee that anybody can protect social status. If a son does not become 'snatak', the family can very well lose the privileges offered to the father.

Difference between Aryavrata and Bharat

I believe Aryavrata had a class system based on education and virtue. Bharat had a more diluted class system primarily based on birth. This is the difference between Aryavrata and Bharat. The founding principles of these two nations were different. Bharat represents inability of the kings to manage allocation/disallocation of land based on qualification.

The inheritance of agricultural land based on birth should have started in the nation of Bharat. But King still retained primary right over the land.

Private land ownership is a very big problem for a king. It always results in shortage of land, and inefficient use of land. I believe a true class based system is possible only in a country with no private ownership of land.

Why it is difficult to be a believer of God

Humans are used to transactions. You get hungry - you have money - you go to market to buy food. You have no money - you find work - get money.

Most of what humans do is need-based. The society offers a structured way to satisfy these needs.

Worship of God does not fit into this pattern. God gives, but in mysterious ways. God never gives when you need something badly, shaking one's confidence.

A man has to suffer inequality, injustice, disease and so many other problems in life despite following religion. So one often thinks why?

Development of 'shraddha' (the blind belief in God, never questioning justice of God) is a must requirement for achievement of higher spriritual progress. The progress in Yoga is possible only after this is achieved. Yoga is not physical exercise. Yoga is concentration in God's worship despite physical suffering like pain, hunger, thirst etc. Yoga is achieved only after the seeker completely forgets the state of his body, absorbed in the reflection of qualities of God.

Leading a virtuous life according to tenets of dharm is also 'yoga' if seeker develops 'shraddha'. It is not necessary to renounce family life. Family life is in fact the best stage considered by Manu Bhagwan, who says all the other three stages are dependent on householders.

Ramayan says that even householders lived like Rishis in Shri Rama's time. Such was the purity in society when Shri Rama ruled.

Veda is the universal knowledge. It has been proven time and again

Countless seekers of God on this Earth and other planets have reaffirmed Veda.

Then why current civilizations on Earth are so unaware or ignorant of Veda?

It is a confluence of factors - some natural, and some accidental. The loss of knowledge in Bharat is a natural factor - something that can happen to an old civilization. Civilizations do decay, die and then restart.

The accidental factors are influx of non-believer races to this Earth, and these becoming prominent. The king of Bharat had the responsibility to protect 'dharm' on Earth, in which these kings failed, specially just before and after the Mahabharat war. The decline of power of Bharat coincided with rise of anti-dharm forces, resulting in this unique situation where non-believers have become dominant on Earth.

But anybody who believes that the non-believers will last forever is living in illusion. God has strange ways to restore the balance. While God does not force a man to believe, God does punish the guilty. God gives punishment to entire nations, and even entire populations of a planet. While a man can escape punishment of a king, no king has ever escaped punishment of God. The result of sins is pain, nothing else has ever come out of it.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


I dunno if I'm interpreting what you guys are saying are right but obviously parts of Hinduism have come down from the Vedic civilisation. Being very traditional, might I add that as a Hindu, although I believe that the Vedas are true, I do regard other religions to be true in many regards..especially many Eastern ones like Buddhism (wouldn't really call this a religion but oh well). I think it's very integral with my "religion" so to speak.

reply to post by BlackPoison94


To me, Buddhism is (at its core) just simple common sense.

Since Gautama Buddha, however, there have been expansions made on his concept by countless other practitioners. I make no claims to the validity of any of their teachings, choosing to focus on Gautama's point of not taking anyone's word for anything, and discovering for myself.

One of the interesting things about the Buddha was that prior to achieving the "realization" that became the heart of Buddhism, he was an expert meditator. He had had several gurus who were exponents of different schools of Indian religious thought at the time.

People nowadays see photos of some yogi meditating and they have a very misleading idea of what is going on.

Here is a representation of the Buddha just prior to the period when he had his great realization.

www.indiancentury.com...



He had been practicing austerities with a small group of expert meditators. They were striking out on their own because although they had achieved some realization and some stabilization of their minds in deep trance states, they were unsatisfied and believed that they had not achieved a true liberation from the conditions of samsara.

The only people in the modern world who compare in courage to the courage of meditators like this group of samanas, who were the companions of the Buddha, are astronauts.

The Buddha abandoned austerities because practicing them nearly led to his death. He was criticized by his companions (fellow astronauts) when he left their company.

When this highly internalized individual approached the tree under which he achieved his realization, he looked much like the statue in the photo. He thought the spot, under the bodhi tree looked like a good place for exertion!!.

These people were serious people.

Shortly thereafter, as a result of abandoning extreme austerities (having abandoned extreme luxury as a young man) and having taken a middle path, he had his great realization, achieved the liberation he sought and became the foundation upon which is built one of the world's great religions.

Rama Rajya - Perfect King for an Imperfect World - BaalKaand chapter 1


2. Rishi Valmiki asked Dev-rishi Narad - who is the strong and pious person in this time who is also learned of 'dharm', considerate, truthful, and steadfast?

3. Who possesses good character, who desires betterment of all people, who is learned, capable and with pleasing personality?

4. Who is patient, calm, glowing, loving (does not engage in hate), victorious in war, and better than 'deva' in capability?

5. O Maharshi! I have burning desire ('param kotuhul' - deep desire to know something) to learn about such a man. Please tell me because you are capable of knowing about it.

6. Devrishi Narad who knew about three loka(s) (stars, space, and planets), spoke the following sentences filled with joy.

7. O Muni! I tell you about such a man after a lot of thought, who has these rare qualities spoken by you.

8. Rama who is born in Ikshvaku clan has such qualities of being steadfast, very strong, glowing, patient, and controller of Indriya.

9. He is talented, learned of law, soft-spoken, pleasing, victorious, broad-shouldered, strong-armed, conch-necked, and carries a very heavy bow.

10. He is thick-necked, broad-chested, destroyer of difficult enemies, long armed, and with handsome features like well-proportioned face and broad forehead. He is a great warrior.

11. He has well-proportioned body. He has clear complexion, and glowing face. He has deep chest, large eyes, pleasing personality and all the good qualities possible in man.

12. He is learned of 'dharm', truthful, always busy in good work for country, famous, expert of Veda, pious and Yogi.

13,14. He is like God in protecting citizens. He is bearer of wealth and slayer of enemies. He is protector of living beings of earth, and protector of dharm. He always protects self, dharm, and people. He is learned of Veda, Vedanga, and Tattv (matter), and an expert of archery.

(What a king protects? The order is self, dharm, and people. First priority is self-protection. A king would kill anybody who attacks him. Second priority is dharm. Dharm is protected by education, yagna and daan. Third is people who are protected by maintaining army and police.

The ruler of India is considered ruler of the Earth. People should carefully look at history, and will realize that whoever has had power over India also had power over the world. The British empire became all powerful after gaining India, and has declined to a marginal power after losing India. Muslims became dominant force in the world after gaining rule of India, The loss of Muslim power in India was accompanied by loss of power elsewhere as well. If India is in chaos - no strong ruler - the world has also been in chaos. The current time is a period of chaos. People may like democracy but democracy is a weak poltical system. Democracies do not last very long)

15. He is learned of the truth/essence of all Shashtra (sciences), has strong memory, and talents. He is loved by all people, pious, never to beg/ask (powerful), and having 'beyond-world' capabilities.

('vichakshan' means capabilities of a person that cannot be gained by material means on Earth. For example a machine cannot be made by a particular element not found on Earth. People of Ramayan time had heavenly powers of materializing objects of other worlds.)

16. Learned people flock to Rama as rivers run to the sea. He is a an Arya (noble person), deals with everybody with an equal hand (justly) and is always happy and calm.

17,18. He is possessed of all good qualities, and is the cause of happiness of Kausalya. He is reserved like sea (reserved here means latent power, or hidden power) and patient like Himalaya mountain range. He is strong like Vishnu, and pleasing like Chandrama. He is like death in anger, and like Earth in forgiveness. He is like ascetics in giving donations (who give up everything) and an upholder of truth and dharm.

reply to post by ipsedixit


People misunderstand Yoga. Yoga is not about a weak body. A student of yoga must take enough food to sustain health of the body.

A Yogi starts taking less food as he progresses - as he does not need much food. So likely Buddha and his fellow students did not get it. This is due to lack of guidance. Only an able master Yogi can guide students.

The Yogi does become feeble due to fasting. Body loses weight, but not strength. A yogi does not get weak despite losing weight.

People cannot understand the miracle of human body until 'shraddha' or complete trust in God is developed. Human body can do what any weapon cannot do. Vanars fought with bare hands and killed Rakshas who possessed advanced weapons. Vanars had very advanced system of developing body strength. The body builders often worship Hanuman (although it is wrong practice) due to this fact.

Rama Rajya - YuddhaKaand - chapter 74

24. Raghav (title of Shri Rama) organized many yagna of different types with friends and family, after getting the excellent kingdom (becoming king).

25. In his rule, there was no wailing of windows, no fear of bad-character people, and no diseases.

26. There was no fear of theives, and armed gangs. No old person ever had to carry out funeral of a child (means young people did not die).

27. Everybody was happy. Everybody was working towards upholding dharm. Nobody hurt anybody, keeping in mind that Rama will be saddened by it.

28. People lived long, and each man had many sons. People were disease-free and grief-free.

29. Trees flowered and developed fruits on time, and grew well in Rama's rule. Rains fell like clockwork and gentle breeze flowed all year round.

30. All classes of people (Brahmins, Kshatriya, Vaishya, Shudra) gave up greed and were always engaged in their work, being happy and satisfied.

31. The citizens were always busy in completing their duties. All people had noble qualities, and they always followed dharm.

The rule of Rakshas and parallel to modern world

The Rakshas were:

a. A classless society. The power/wealth of a person denoted position in society.
b. The acquisition of physical possessions was the primary objective of man. Knowledge was just a means to this end, rather than an end in itself as in Vedic society.
c. King was all powerful. Priests were subservient to king. Priests can overrule a king in Vedic society.
d. Base desires - like sexual satisfaction was a legitimate need of man. Abduction of a beautiful/married girl was condoned by the society.(called forcible sexual union or Rakshas Vivah by Manu)
e. Rakshas drank wine and ate meat on a daily basis. Ramayan verses have Rakshas threatening to kill and eat humans, but I believe they were just meat eaters and consumed animals, birds and eggs just like modern man.
f. Rakshas had a big fad for bodily strength. Rakshas man would have employed many techniques to this end.
g. Rakshas society was an industrial society. There is very large use of metals in construction of Lanka. The chariots were also built of metals. Ravann possessed many Vimans though still a small number compared to modern nations.
h. Rakshas society used iron extensively - in construction as well as weapons. They knew how to make rockets, though they did not use explosive warheads like modern times. It seems that Rakshas society was a partally Vedic society as it developed from Vedic roots and Vedic knowledge. So the concept of one-to-one fight was retained in battle philosophy.
i. Raskshas fought at night, from Viman employing rockets. This tactics is very similar to modern warfare.
j. Rakshas had technology to conceal Viman, including hiding in visible spectrum and suppressing sound. The Viman would have been highly maneuverable so that it was used very effectively when employed by Meghnaad. A large number of Vanar deaths occurred from weapons fired from Viman.

Advantage / Features / Disadvantage of Rakshas society

a. A classless society is inherently attractive to disadvantaged and outlaws. So people with industrial capability but unable/unwilling to follow Vedic system would have found expression in Rakshas society.

b. The labour is completely channelised to wealth creation. This would have given rapid material progress to the society.

c. The industrial progress allowed Rakshas to dominate over other races, which provided them further means to increase military strength.

d. Lanka is described as home to many races, not only Rakshas. So what Rakshas achieved was a mixed society of like-minded people.

e. The religious practices of Rakshas were similar to ancient Egypt. They had temples, dieties and animal sacrifice.

f. The entire system of Rakshas is based on power, wealth, and loyalty to king.

Dis-advantages

a. The religious belief system created by man is open to additions/modifications/deletions. So while the religion might start very well, it becomes unmanageable and confusing after a while. Vedic religion is fixed in comparison and never changes.

b. The classless nature of society is very appealing, but it soon becomes a feudal society. Absence of morals means that the poor become marginalized and oppressed. This is in contrast to Vedic society where poor never lose their honour.

c. The absence of morals means the poor take up arms and class warfare starts.

d. The elite try to protect their 'God-given' wealth and power at the cost of perpetrating injustice and bloodshed.

e. Absence of 'ashram' system means people do not retire, thus the young soon lack opportunity to earn and fulfill desires as previous generations. There is constant friction between old and the young.

f. The fads develop and fade constantly. People find it difficult to adapt to a constantly changing creed.

g. The violence and injustice eventually does the society in from inside, if not due to external factors.

Mixed Rakshas/Vedic Societies

The Judaism is a strange example of mixture of one God concept and class based society with Rakshas practices. The same concepts got carried into Islam.

Buddhism and Jainism are more social engineering experiments rather than religions. Both of these religions failed in India due to poor concepts compared to Vedic thought.

Shakti worship (shakt) is a Rakshas religion. A large number of people in India are fully or partially Shakt followers. This religion is completely non-Vedic.

Vaishnav and Shaiv are invented belief systems based partially on historical facts. These sects are a mix of Rakshas practices and Vedic thought.