The vedic civilization and evolution of society in India

I don't have much to say. I just want to encourage you to continue working this thread.

I look forward to the daily updates you put in here, and usually read them twice to make sure i am clear on what you are saying. It is like a peaceful corner of this tumultuous internet, and I truly appreciate that.

Please carry on.

Vedic tradition - to test the groom and bride before marriage

The above story is a pointer to a well established tradition of testing the groom and the bride before marriage is fixed. Direct contact is not allowed between boy and girl in Vedic society. Marriage is fixed either by Acharya (teacher) or parents/guardians. Marriage with known people or relatives is not considered good. So marriage is kind of uncharted territory for both boy and girl.

The tradition is that Learned men from girls side test the groom by asking questions. The Learned ladies from boy's side test the girl. Marriage is fixed when both sides are convinced.

There is no horoscope matched in Vedic society. Only qualities of family and boy/girl were looked at.

An exception to this rule is when both boy and girl are Brahmin, and marry of their own consent. Such marriage was often done in Gurukul in a very simple ceremony.

Vedic Tradition - A Groom's family/friends go to Bride's home for marriage

The Agnihotra of marriage ceremony is typically done at bride's home (in the morning). As it took long amount of time for a groom's family to reach the bride's home in ancient times, elaborate arrangement for their stay was done. Guest houses / Palaces were used for this temporary stay as per bride's father's status. The groom's party was well cared for.

Vedic Tradition - Bride's clothes

Bride's clothes are always brought by the Groom' side.

Vedic Tradition - Donation of cows to Brahmins in marriage ceremony

The groom's father or guardian donated cows to Brahmins in the marriage ceremony.

Vedic Tradition - The first night after marriage is spent at bride's home

The groom's family did not depart the same day after marriage. They departed next day or later. A part of the marriage ceremony was done after sunset (agnihotra and looking at sky - Dhruv tara and Rohni nakshatra). Bride and groom sleep separately during this night.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


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Singing of SamaVeda mantra with music

An important component of Vedic marriage is singing of SamaVeda verses with musical instruments like Veena, Mridang, Flute, Tabla, Matki etc. This is called 'Gandharv Vidya' and people who perform this art are called 'Gandharv'.

Vedic marriage has NO processions, fireworks, dancing on the streets etc. The entire ceremony is conducted inside home (or palace).

The pomp and show of modern marriages in India is more an indicator of decay of moral values rather than a show of traditions.

Utensils and Food, Way to serve food

Bharat and Aryavrata, both had knowledge of working metals and making utensils.
Baked clay utensils were the more popular ones though.
Several types of utensils were used in home for cooking and serving.

The traditional way of eating in India is similar to the Japanese. Food is served on a low table while person sits on the ground (on a mat), or in absence of table, the 'sthali' or plate is also kept on a mat in front of the person. Food is eaten with the right hand. Left hand is used for serving, though Vedic tradition is somebdy always serves (ladies of the house normally). Hands are washed before and after eating. Mouth is rinsed with water before and after eating.

Vedic system of serving food is to put different dishes in bowls, along with steamed rice on the plate. Chapati/roti is served hot as they are made. Vedic roti was made of grains like corn, gram-lentil, jwar, bajra etc. rather than wheat.

The tradition of putting ghee on dishes, and roti has come from Vedic times. Ghee was used as condiment. But spices were not used much. The current food is excessively spiced and is not representative of food in the time of Krsna. Frying is not a method employed in vedic food. The food is steamed and salt, spice and ghee are added later when food is cooked. It is not clear as to the origin of so many fried foods in India.

Roasted grains - like puffed rice, roasted gram-lentil etc. have origins in Vedic times. Roasted grains were carried by travellers to eat along the way.

Sugarcane was grown all over Vedic India. 'Shakkar' and 'gur' were important ingredients to many recipes. Sweet dishes were an important part of food, and at least one sweet dish was prepared daily.

Vedic food was much simpler and more wholesome than modern food.

Eating twice a day

The tradition is to eat after 'agnihotra'. Agnihotra is done twice a day, and that is the number of times people eat.

The 'anna' or grain based food was limited to these two meals. Only milk and fruits (tubers/roots are also allowed) could be taken as 'refreshments' if one was hungry in between.

There was no lunch. People ate in the morning before going to work, and then at sundown.

Eating only if hungry

An important tradition is to eat only when hungry, and not to overeat.

A person is advised to eat only as much that hunger is satisfied, and not to take any more helping.

The science of storing grain

The grain was stored in granaries. There were small ones in homes, and large ones built by merchants in towns and cities.

Vedic people were experts in granary construction. I am told that they knew how to preserve grain for 3 years or more. So even if one season failed, there was enough grain to go around. Famines occurred only if there was a prolonged drought.

The trick was in the construction technique, as well as natural preservatives used. The granary was built so that air heated by sun circulated naturally through the granary, and moist air exited the sides. The grain was stacked on shelfs, rather than on the floor. The idea was to keep the grain dry, and ensure air circulation. Dried twigs of neem and dried roots of 'vat-vriksh' were placed in the granary to keep away moth.

Please note that spoiled grain cannot be used for food of either humans or milch animals in Vedic society. So it is very important to protect grain.

Vedic Agriculture - Production of healthy food in a sustainable way

Vedic people used their resources efficiently and imaginatively. This is the reason of the continuation of this civilization over millions of years.

The basis of this success is 'cow'. Cow's milk is a wholesome food. Cow-dung is used for fertilizer. Cow uses the waste of agriculture and food production (straw, peels of fruit, husk) and converts that into two very useful materials - the best food, and best fertilizer.

Cow-dung is also a useful building material. Mixed with loamy soil, it is used as a plaster. A small house can be built with just baked clay bricks (or sun dried bricks), loamy soil and cow-dung. The roof needs some timber though, and is covered with straw mats. The roof is also plastered with a mix of cow-dung and loamy soil. So you can build a house anywhere with little resources, only if you have cow-dung.

Cow-urine is an anti-septic. Yes, it works.

Efficient use of water

Vedic food production is aligned to natural yearly cycles of rain, heat and cold. The crops were planted just after rainy season started,and harvested in spring. The land was not cultivated after spring, so that it can regain its nutrients by the action of sun and wind. The water present in the ground was used for domestic purposes and for animals (through wells) rather than for agriculture. This balanced use of water meant that water was never over-used, and the same land could be used forever for agriculture.

The food was primarily based on grains, sugar and milk. Shak (vegetables) was a seasonal item. So there was no shortage of food due to change in seasons.

Efficient use of river water

Two or three crops per year were possible where river water was available. This is the prime reason of prosperity of Punjab, and Doab regions. River based irrigation systems were in use in ancient Vedic societies. The system of drawing water from the river with a bucket-wheel rotated by animal power (bullocks) has been used in India since ancient time.

There was no shortage of food in the Vedic time. There were no famines. Rain was plentiful. Food was grown with little effort. Canals were not built as these were not deemed necessary.

Rivers were full of water, and annual floods replenished the northerrn plains with soil brought from the Himalayas. The land was so rich that it is said that a single unit of land (in the time of Krsna) yielded grain with the weight of two adult elephants. (I have some problem defining this unit though. A multiplicty of units are in use now, none of which corresponds to units in the time of Krsna).

Sarovar (pond)

The construction of roads and ponds is an important responsibility of the King. Ponds were constructed to collect rainwater, generally for residential use, in drier areas.

There are so many examples of ponds un-earthed in excavations, and in old towns which are still habitated after thousands of years.

The towns were carefully designed so that rain water falling on houses and streets naturally collected in ponds.

The streets used to be paved - either with stones or bricks. The drains on both sides carried the rain water.

The sewage system

Vastu-shashtra asks each house to be built with a bathroom and a kitchen. I have already written about multi-level buildings in Ramayana time. So the question naturally arises about the sewage system.

There very separate pits in the ground for domestic sewage, and animal-sewage near each house. The sewage was not carried in a drain to a far-away location.

Running Water

The water-well was built in every house, or a group of houses. The water was drawn either manually or with use of animals from the well in Krsna's time.

The Ramayan time is different though. Ramayan people built and used mechanical devices to draw water and lift it up in tall buildings. Ramayan people built a variety of devices for everyday use. Their multi-level buildings had plumbing similar to the modern ones.

Cloth Production

Two crops - 'kapas' (cotton) and 'sana' (jute) hase been grown in India since time immemorial.

Cotton is the foundation of cloth industry. Weavers were present in every town and city. Even villages had families of weavers. All kind of cloth was produced in Vedic India.

The 'sana' was used for making ropes, and bags of grain. It was also used for making mats and carpets.

Silk cloth has been produced in India since ancient times. People consider China as the origin of silk. That is false. A lot of Chinese practices have been learnt in India. China has been a neighbour for a very long time. The center of silk production was in east India, area that has seen influx of Mongoloid people. People falsely assume China and India existed in total isolation in ancient time. It is just that the interaction was limited, but these two civilizations interacted through trade and other means.

Woolen cloth is also a very old tradition in the colder part of the country, specially northern Punjab.

All the above four types of cloth were in use in Vedic India, 5300 years ago.

The biggest western lie - Iron Age

Iron has been smelted and used in India for millions of years. The theory of an 'iron age' after a 'bronze age' is purely an imaginary construction of Christian historians.

The use of metals in the ancient world was not as widespread as it is now. The quantity mined and smelted was much lower than it is now. The metal was extracted in small foundaries. It was not a time of 'industrial' scale production.

That does not mean ancient man did not know about metals.

The swords, spears, arrow-heads, pick-axes, etc. are examples of iron use in the ancient world. The ancient Indian chariots used iron bearings, and iron rims.

Pyramids were not built without iron.

The pillar of Ashoka made of iron is still standing after more than 2300 years. It is testament to knowledge of metallurgy available at that time.

Technology and Man

Man can live in the lap of nature without any creature comfort, and still be happy and close to God. Many Rishis of Bharat lived their whole life as an ascetic, spent time in worship of God, learning and teaching, while living in a hut and sleeping on hard floor.

The real happiness comes from knowing God, not from creature comforts. This is the reason people of Bharat did not spend much time in developing technology. They were people of very sharp intellect. Memorising even one Veda by heart with meaning is a massively difficult job. If you do not believe, you can try committing to memory just 100 mantras, forget about thousands. Our Rishi/Muni committed entire Vedic books to memory with meaning. They did not carry books with them as they went place to place. They remembered it all.

Our Rishis knew that the solution to man's problems does not lie in technology. God created this world, and created all the animals and plants as well, needed by man. God gave everything a man would need in the natural world itself. All that was left for man was to build a home, grow food, weave clothes, and rear animals like cow and horse to live a good and pious life.

Man has built big ships and aeroplanes, big cities and highways, but did that give any peace of mind to man? Did that remove the need of warfare? Did that feed all hungry souls? Did that make man free of disease? These are questions to ponder.

If technology becomes a weapon of murder of innocents, then how can it be justified. If technology is developed with virtue, then it makes sense. But the virtuous people soon realize that building planes take them no closer to God than they were before. Planes can get them more land on earth, but do not win an inch in the land of soul. So the effort to build a plane is better spent to gain virtue.

The undercurrents of Ramayan

The Lanka war did not happen in a political vacuum. It was not a first war between Arya and Rakshas nations. It was a finale of a long struggle.

Lanka did not get strong and powerful in a day. Similarly city of Ayodhya was not built in a day. The civilization of Rakshas developed over many thousands of years. The city of Ayodhya was millions of years old already when Shri Rama took birth on earth.

The race of Rakshas existed when Ravann was born. Ravann was NOT born a Rakshas. His father was a Rishi. He became what he became despite his Brahmin family. And this is the biggest teaching of Ramayana that NO person can be known by his birth. A child is born without caste and without class. It is by qualities, education, and association that a child takes on a profession and a character.

Ravann grew up a warrior but ‘adharmi’ (against dharm). He organized Rakshas people and set up a kingdom at Lanka. Ravann became an emperor of ‘anarya’ people.

War between Lanka and Kosala would have happened even if Sita was not abducted. Because Rishi Vishwamitra has taken a pledge from Rama to destroy Rakshas race. Rakshas have become a nuisance, as they spread a reign of terror over a large area of Aryavrata (it is similar to terrorism today).

Ayodhyakaanda chapter 1 - Qualities of Shri Rama

7. Shri Rama was very handsome, very strongly built, free of bad qualities, unique on earth, and like his father Dashrath in qualities.

8. He was a happy man, and soft of speech. Even if somebody spoke to him in a harsh voice, he did not respond in the same way.

9. Shri Rama got happy with just one good deed done towards him, but forgave hundreds of bad deeds done towards him. (Means he was a man free of malice. He took on Ravann as a duty of a King towards the nation, not as a personal vendetta.)

10. He was kind, controlled his anger, gave respect to Brahmins, kind-hearted, follower of Dharm, A winner of 'Indriya', and a pious soul.

12. He was an expert of Shashtra, expert of Veda, and better than his father in weapons knowledge.

This verse says it all. It is extremely difficult for a man to be an expert of Shashtra and Veda (its called supreme intellect - the qualities of the best Brahmin), and expert of weapons (the qualities of best Kshatriya).

This makes Rama a 'Raja-rishi' - a king who is a rishi as well. This is a unique and very rare person.

13. He was the best in archery, and considered a great warrior. He was excellent in commanding army, and destroying an enemy in the battlefield.

14. King Dashrath decided to make Shri Rama the crown-prince after taking advice from his council of ministers, and on the basis of the qualities of Shri Rama.

15. Raja Dashrath invited heads of different cities and countries on this occassion.

This verse clears the federal structure of Aryavrata. The appointment of crown price is an event that requires agreement of other countries as well.

Ramayan Ayodhyakaand chapter-2 - convening of Parishad

1. Then King Dashrath convened Parishad of all respected people of earth (A house made up of senior Brahmins, senior officers of State, heads of main trader families/industries is called a Parishad. This is used in a wider meaning, so we must consider this in the context of Aryavrata - all communities of Arya people) Thus spoke Raja Dashrath words which are comforting, gladdens the heart and mind.

2. You people know that my ancestors have ruled this large country like a father cares for his son.

3. I want to fill this country with comforts, and kindness, as done by previous Kings of Ikshvaku clan.

4. I have also ruled this country justly without personal benefit as per the best of my abilities.

5. I have worked hard under the white canopy of this nation, and got old now, after working for the benefit of people throughout my life.

(Canopy ('chatra') and crown ('mukut' ) are the signs of power of a Vedic king. A king has lost his prestige if an enemy makes a king lose his canopy and crown. A canopy was built on top of 'singhasan' in the court, as well as on top of the chariot of the king. This canopy was often built with gold and studded with precious stones. King Dashrath says 'white canopy' - which could be marble or an alloy of precious metals which gives white colour. I believe the second option as more likely.)

6 and 7. I want to give a rest to my old body. I am tired of carrying the burden of sustaining dharm on the earth, which requires supreme valour and cannot be done by a person not capable of controlling 'Indriya'. So I want to transfer my responsibilities to Rama, and then take rest.

8. If you consider my view as appropriate, then please give me permission. Otherwise tell me what is the best option.

9. All kings displayed such pleasure at King Dashrath's words, as a peacock displays at the sight of clouds.

10. The entire assembly hall reverberated with the sound of acceptance and the happiness displayed by the Kings.

(This proves that Shri Rama's popularity was universal by this time. The entire nation knew of his qualities.)

What is Dharm

Veda-okt-dharmah : What Veda says is Dharm.

Does it mean that what Veda does not say is also Dharm?

For example Veda says there is only one God. Now somebody says Vishnu, Mahesh and Brahma are forms of the same God. Veda says God is formless. So it cannot have three different forms.

Somebody says Shri Rama is avatar of Vishnu. Veda says souls take birth on earth. God does not take birth. So Shri Rama is a soul. If Shri Rama is an avatar of Vishnu - then Vishnu is also a soul.

Veda says all souls are same. So Shri Rama cannot be God. Even Vishnu cannot be God, if Shri Rama is an avatar of Vishnu.

Vishnu is a name of God in Veda. (Each name of God is a quality of God. Many names are due to many qualities)

So Vishnu cannot be Shri Rama, as Veda says that soul and God are two different entities. This also proves that 'avatar' of God is not possible.

So what Veda does not say directly can be derived and understood. If some statement is against Veda, it should not be accepted.

What is a sin

An action against Veda is a sin. Means any action that breaks a rule given by God (in Veda) is a sin.

No sin goes unpunished. A man has to bear consequences of each and every sin. The only variable is 'when'. The when part is difficult to understand because man's destiny is a result of countless previous lives. So only God knows the 'when' part. Even Yogi fails here.

Earth - like a mother, Sun - like a father

The earth bears man like a woman bears a child. Earth shows utmost patience.

The Sun provides food, clothes etc. whatever man needs like a father. But Sun is also 'ugra', and shows anger to discipline the child. The sun is capable of bringing storms, earthquakes, floods etc. on earth.

The material powers is a manifestation of God's powers only. God remains hidden while performing actions through natural world.

The three types of mis-fortunes described in Veda -

Dehic - disease, disfigurement in body
Devic - Natural disasters like storms, earthquakes, drought etc.
Bhautic - Snake bite, scorpion bite, untimely death in accident/war etc. - pain given by other humans/animals/plants

are caused by God through use of material powers (by movement of matter through energy).

Why Rama is given title Bhagwan

Because Rama was as close to God as possible for a human. He protected humans by his physical strength while protecting dharm by his mental strength. He is the epitome of human achievement. This is the reason he is given the title 'Bhagwan'.

Bhagwan means most respected, a person of highest authority.

The proper way of showing respect to ancestors is to follow in their footsteps. Making statues and offering 'prasad' is incorrect. Ancestors cannot eat food offered by us. But they can smell the scent of virtue rising from earth. Bhagwan Rama and Bhagwan Krishna are very unhappy today, because they fought endlessly to establish virtue on this earth. Today's man does not believe in what they believed in. Neither Bhagwan Rama, nor Bhagwan Krishna allowed any sycophants to come near them when they were alive. It is wishful thinking that they like sycophancy in death now.