The vedic civilization and evolution of society in India

Originally posted by vedatruth
Caste system originates from a desire of a father to see his son do the same as him. There is always attachment of father to son, which is natural as both live in the same family.

Vedic system was designed to BREAK this father-son bond, and establish 'DHARMA' by educating children in residential schools AWAY from family.

A student did not go back to his family even on vacation. The student always stayed with the Guru, and Guru became his father. Parents had to come to the Ashram to meet him, if they so desired.

People who are unaware of Vedic system, just cannot understand how smart Arya were in designing their social systems. When you deeply study Vedic society, you will be stuck by how ideal it is, that it can only be created if God wished it so. No man can create such an ideal society.

Thank you so much for this fascinating thread! I have a deep sense of connection with the Vedas and am enjoying your simplistic interpretation of it very much.

I do have one question for you:
Are you saying that from ages 6 - 25 for boys and ages 6 -16 for girls they lived apart from their families?

reply to post by itsallmaya


Yes. The children lived in Gurukul, and returned to their family only after graduation (snatak).

There is a lot of effort behind the simplistic explanations that I have provided. I have tried to break away from demagoguery and focus on the essense.

Many Indian scholars spend too much time in un-necesssary explanations that often confuses the reader.

Dharm is supposed to be simple if it has to be followed by a large number of people of varying intellectual capacity.

A keen reader will find information on this thread which is not there in any book.
As I value the readers of this thread, I shall give tips to alert them about future events.

Caste vs. 'varnn'

Caste is basically clans. This system started after the decline of Vedic culture.

'Gotra' or family name has been used in vedic society to prevent in-breeding. It was not reflected in name of the person. Gotra has no significance in Vedic 'varnn' system.

Typically the ancestors were named during fixing of marriage to ensure genetic distance. I shall cover some aspects of Vedic marriage in future to make these matters clearer.

People have arbitrarily associated their caste to vedic 'varnn' system. This practice is absolutely wrong.

'varnn' is not hereditary, and 'varnn' can change within a lifetime. In fact Acharya can change and does change the 'varnn' of a student. Acharya has full authority in this matter. A child of 'shudra' can become a 'brahmin', if the Acharya decides so.

Dark complexion and vedic society

The status of a person was based on qualities, and not on colour.

Both Krishna Bhagwan and Vyaas Muni had dark complexion. Both were Learned of four Vedas and held supreme position in society.

Later Pundits started showing Krishna Bhagwan as 'blue' complexion, due to society developing prejudice against dark people.

Vedic society did not have any prejudice against darker people, and colour of the skin was not a factor in vedic marriage.

Ramayan Time: Ayodhya City

Ayodhya was the capital city of Kosala, and seat of power of nation of Aryavrata. The modern city of Ayodhya is located near Lucknow in the state of Uttar Pradesh.

Ayodhya was located on the banks of 'Saryu' river. It is described as 12 yojan long and 3 yojan wide, having a rectangular design. (Yojan is considered roughly 5 kilometers, though this system of measurement is no longer in use).

The city was aligned on north-south axis. It was a city of wide roads, tall stone buildings, and gardens. The roads were paved with stones and were sprinkled with perfumed water daily. Roads had rest areas for pedastrians.

The army of Kosala is described as 'Chaturangini'. The four divisions consisted of:

Horse Riders (spears and swords)
Horse Riders (bow and arrows)
Chariots (Variety of light and heavy weapons)
Elephants (Road rollers of the ancient world)

reply to post by vedatruth



Skin color is only a thing of beauty. And beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I like pale alabaster skin, I suppose. But my preference is darker skin, like caramel. My wife is latina, a dark latina. Indians have this skin color, too.

I have always considered that color as being "kissed by the Creator".

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


I appreciate your view.

Bharat was a big country, and there were people of all types in it. The weather was also diverse.

It is natural that there were people of fair skin as well as people of dark skin in the country.

The vedic 'varnn' system is based on qualification, and not on colour/race.

When Rama met Hanuman for the first time, he was very impressed with Hanuman's knowledge of Sanskrit and Veda. He called him Arya, a title reserved for citizens of Aryavrata. Kishkindha was a separate nation (not the Arya nation). This shows clearly that Rama considered Hanuman a learned person, worthy of a respectable title.

Titles have meaning in Vedic society. They cannot be used as per a person's whims. For example the President of USA is only one, and nobody else can use that title. Similarly 'Maharaja' is reserved for King of the entire nation (for example Maharaja Yudhishtir) and other kings were just 'Raja'.

When Vedic culture declined, every king became 'Maharaja' and even 'Maharajadhiraj' without ever winning a single battle or ruling a significant country. Such self-given titles have no meaning, and are only self-defeating.

Qualification was supremely important in Vedic society. People were truthful, and only used titles which suited their true position.

Historical evidence of Ramayan

A lot of people say that Ramayan is a myth, as no ruins etc. exist to point to Ramayan's time.

The problem is Ramayan describes events that occurred more than 18 million years ago. Narad Muni wished that story of Rama will last as long as Earth lasts, and wish of a Rishi can never go in vain. So many Kings came, and so many Rishis came after Rama, but those are not remembered today. The story of Rama is still fresh in public memory as it happened yesterday.

There are no ruins from Ramayan time, as any construction of that time has turned to dust long time back.

Whatever ruins are passed off as being from Ramayan time today, are fairly recent constructions (maybe in the last few hundred years).

Ramayan is a true story of a glorious king, who fought a mighty enemy with his own wit and strength against massive odds, and won. Bhagwan Rama is a person who embodies the ultimate in human achievement, that is inspirtaion for all kings and warriors of all times to come.

The power of Rishi - as per Ramayan

What is Yoga? Why is 'Samadhi' so desirable? What gifts does God give to a Yogi?

A keen student of Ramayan (the original Valmiki Ramayan) cannot miss the powers described of Rishi. A few quotations are given here for your reference:

Yathavat pujitah ten devarshiha naradah tatha |
Aaprichch-yav-abhya-anugyatah sa jagam vihaysam || (Bal-kaand 2/2)

Meaning: Dev-rishi Narad went back by sky route, after taking leave of Rishi Valmiki.

Dev-rishi Narada was capable of going anywhere he wished, without using any vehicle or aircraft. This is a 'siddhi' or power given by God to a Rishi who attains 'samadhi'.

Hasitam bhash-itam chaiv gatiha yavachch cheshtitam |
Tatsarva dharm-viryen yathavat-sam-prapashyati || (Bal-kaand 2/21)

Meaning: Rishi Valmiki obtained all knowledge about Rama's life with his power of dharm.

The Rishi can 'see' and 'hear' remotely by his power, not only a current event, but also a past event. He does not have to be physically present there. This is also a 'siddhi' given by God to a Rishi.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


Maybe it wasn't a factor up to a point but it did occur. The English brought in the caste system and may have started from that.

Yeah to be honest..it's still stuck with today's society. The fairer you are..the more beautiful you are and from a higher caste. The darker you are..the more "prostitute-like" you are. If you look at the Indian adverts, you'll always see creams to "lighten your skin."

Heh..I purposely make myself dark by running around in circles when it's sunny

Description of Ayodhya City - Balkaand chapter 3

1. There was a kingdom called 'Kosala' on the banks of Saryu river where lived satisfied, wealthy, and happy people.

2. Its capital was city of Ayodhya which was built by Manu Bhagwan himself.

3. The city was 12 yojan long and 3 yojan wide (rectagular shape). The city was full of beutiful long and wide roads.

4. A long and wide 'Rajpath' (road of the king) ran center of the city lengthwise and there were many roads that intersected this road. The roads were spinkled daily with perfumed water.

6. The city was decorated with beutiful gates and had many wide large markets. All kinds of 'yantra' (machines) were sold here, and city was full of wonderful artisans.

7. The city was full of tall buildings with large balconies, where beutiful flags were fluttering in the air. The city had hundreds of cannons in its watch towers. The city was also home to a number of prisoners (probably had a large jail).

8. The city was full of gardens, and orchards of mango trees. The city was surrounded by a forest of 'sal' trees. (Please note that 'sal' is the best construction wood you can find. Mango orchard is a vedic tradition as mango wood is used in Agnihotra)

9. The city had many inaccesible forts surrounded by moats. Enemies were unable to attack these. The city was full of elephants, horses, bullocks. camels and mules (used for transport).

10. The palaces were golden colour. The city was full of beutiful women. Seven storied (levels) buildings were commonplace that were full of gold and precious stones.

11. The city reverberated with sound of musical instruments like 'nagara', 'mridang', 'veena', and 'panav'. There was no other city like this on Earth. (Please note that education of instrumental music, and raaga is an important part of Vedic education.)

Originally posted by BlackPoison94
reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

 

Maybe it wasn't a factor up to a point but it did occur. The English brought in the caste system and may have started from that.

Yeah to be honest..it's still stuck with today's society. The fairer you are..the more beautiful you are and from a higher caste. The darker you are..the more "prostitute-like" you are. If you look at the Indian adverts, you'll always see creams to "lighten your skin."

Heh..I purposely make myself dark by running around in circles when it's sunny

edit on 10-10-2011 by BlackPoison94 because: (no reason given)

Hispanic culture in my part of the world is similar. Darker skin means you work outdoors (likely in the "chope'", or chopping in the cotton field...not anymore so much as it was about 1 generation back). So many hispanic women, especially older ones, will do all they can to keep their skin as fair as possible. My mother in law is like this. It is a symbol of vanity, of showing that you can support yourself without having to work in the cotton fields, that you have "made it" in America.

I am happy my wife isn't minded like that. She loves laying out, and being darker. She says the sun makes her feel alive. Her dark, caramel skin, jet black hair, and eyes of onyx....*sigh*

Description of people of Ayodhya - Balkaand chapter 4

1. The city was ruled by Maharaja Dashrath, who was learned of Veda, keeper of wealth, and a great personality.

(The word 'mahatejah' is difficult to translate. The power of brahmcharya, and valour with knowledge of Veda gives a sparkling personality. It is almost a person is like sun, that radiates light. It is difficult to look such a person in the eyes.)

2. All people of this city were happy, followers of dharm, listeners of shruti (veda), satisfied with own wealth, devoid of greed, and truthful.

3. There was no poor person in this city. Every family had a house, money, food, cows, and horses.
(Vedic people reared cows and horses in every house, even in city. House is made on a square plot, with main house in the center, and outhouses on the boundary for cows, and horses. Each family had a chariot, like people have car today.The cities were well planned, and had accurate geometrcal shape. Even houses were well designed, and each house lasted very long time)

4. There was no person in Ayodhya, who was lustful, miser, unkind, foolish, or godless (atheist).

5. The citizens of Ayodhya were all God-loving, and followers of dharm. All were happy, peaceful, and pure souls like Rishis.

6. There was no person without ear-rings, or without headgear, or without necklace, or with low means. People maintained theselves well by cleanliness and use of perfume like chandan.

(Even men wear ear-rings, and necklace in Vedic society. Gold was plentiful, and jewellery was worn by both man and woman. The headgear consists of a kind of hat, decorated with gold and precious stones.)

8. There was no person who did not perform Agnihotra, or who was mean, or a theif, or an illegitimate child.

9. The Brahmins of Ayodhya were steadfast in their duties, followers of dharm, giver of money, and keen students. They hesitated to accept donations.

(A Brahmin is a teacher, and it is according to dharm to accept donations in return for education. However Ayodhya was such a wealthy city that everybody believed in giving rather than taking. This is an example of God's bounty to those people who follow God's laws.)

12. The Kshatriya of Ayodhya followed Brahmin, Vaishya followed Kshatriya, and Shudra followed all other three 'varnn', according to dharm.

(This is absolutely as per Veda. Brahmin is the teacher, and giver of knowledge is always supreme. The agriculturists and traders must follow the king and the laws if prosperity is to increase. The service class must do their duty diligently while following dharm.

Veda is very clear about paying well and taking care of servants and employees. There is no forced labour or slavery in Veda.)

Ayodhya - Administation : BalKaand chapter 5

1. Maharaja Dashrath's ministers were all having all good qualities, experts of their field, capable of taking action just on indication, and well-wishers of the King.

2. There were eight ministers in the council. Thet were all famous, honest, hard working people.

(Veda allows only eight ministers. Veda is against large Government.)

3. The ministers were Dhrishti, Jayant, Vijay, Surashtra, Rashta-vardhan, Akopa, Dharmpal, and Sumantra.

(Please note that Veda does not contain proper names. Ramayan is not a book of religion but a historical record, so contains proper names.)

4. In addition there were two Ritvij Vashishta and Vamadev, and some other Rishi as advisors.

7. These ministers knew everything in own kingdom, as well as other kingdoms through spies.

8. These ministers were very good in their work, expert in dealing with others, and just.

(Please note that dharm is justice. Injustice and dharm are incompatible. Dharm is not rituals. Rituals are only designed to bring regularity in remembering God. Any unjust person can never be a God-loving person.)

Yagna and sacrifice

Vedic yagna DOES NOT contain any animal sacrifice. I am pained to read the completely false article in Wikipedia on Veda. The article is written by a person completely ignorant of Veda based on dubious Western sources.

The British relied on Pundits who were only interested in gaining favours of the British. The so called British and German experts are now the source of the Wikipedia article while all Indian experts are ignored. The author of Wikipedia article says that 'Veda' is open source, so that he can interpret as he wishes. Well, this logic can be applied to any religious book, as all religious books are open-source, so open to any interpretation. Such a logic is terribly flawed.

The fact is no Vedic Yagna today or in the past has used animal sacrifice. The sects that use it (like Shakti sects) do not recite Veda mantra at all.

The 'havi' or offering in 'Yagna' consists of dried cow dung, food grains, lentils, ghee, sugar, spices and herbs.

All ingredients are strictly vegetarian.

The importance of Rishi in Vedic society - King Dashrath goes himself to invite Rishi Rishya-shranga

A Rishi can NEVER be ordered by a King. Rishis visited a King's residence on personal request only.

King Dashrath wanted to organize a 'Putreshti' yagna as he was issueless and getting old. He was advised by his mantri Sumantra to invite Rishi Rishya-shrang for the yagna.

King Dashrath went personally to the residence of the Rishi and requested him to visit his Palace.

This snippet from Ramayan is very important as Dashrath was the king of Aryavrata nation, a nation that was more than twice the size of current country of India. Tibet was a part of Aryavrata then. Himalayas were not as high as now, and Tibet plateau was at a much lower elevation. Arya lived west of Hindukush and north of Himalaya as well.

The capital was always made in the geographical center of the nation, so that army can be sent in any direction in equal time. The location of Ayodhya is an indicator of the expanse of Aryavrata.

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Rishi Rishya-shrang arrived in Ayodhya with his wife Shanta. Shanta was hosted by the queens, whileas Rishi was hosted by the King. There was this segregation between men and women in Vedic society.

VastuShashtra (the art of construction) advises construction of a separate 'Atithighar' (guest-house) as an outhouse, or as an adjunct to the main house. Hosting travelling Learned people is a very important duty of an Arya.

There were separate houses for the King, and each queen in Ayodhya. The King and Queen slept separately. The King visited a Queen when needed.

The house of the Arya has a room for each lady. Each man has a room too. Young children sleep with mother. Father sleeps separately in his own room. It is a custom that man and woman sleep separately in their own rooms.

The size of the house is dictated by the size of the family. This is the reason of tall 7 level buildings in Ayodhya. Please note that each building housed one family. The families were large, as each house had at least four generations (normally six). The life expectancy was very high.

The 'Prasad' or 'Mishtanna' of Yagna - 'Kheer'

Kheer (a preparation of rice, milk, sugar and dry fruits like raisins, coconuts etc.) is the most popular sweet dish prepared for Yagna to be distributed as 'prasad'. This was prepared in Dashrath's 'Putreshti' yagna and given to the queens after the yagna to eat.

Other 'prasad' dishes are:

1. Balls of roasted lentil flour and sugar, mixed with ghee (laddu).
2. Sweet fragrant rice.
3. Fresh fruit if foodgrains are not available.
4. Dry fruits mixed with crystal sugar.

Please note that the a portion of 'mishtanna' kept in yagna is offered to God by placing in fire with Veda mantra. Rest is distributed to the participants after yagna as 'prasad'.

Who protects dharma

The concept of 'avatar' is due to kings and priests who ran away from their duty to protect dharm. God does not take birth to protect dharm. That is nonsense.

The educated persons ('dwij') have the responsibility to protect the nation and dharm. The Veda requires them to do 'athak parishram' (untiring effort) to uphold intergrity of nation and dharm. This is the contract in return of getting a privileged position in the society.

There is nothing free in Veda. You get something in return of something. There are no born rich.

The son of a king sleeps on ground on a dried grass bed in Gurukul. He sweeps the floor of classroom just as other kids, cuts wood and brings it to Gurukul, and cares for the cows.

All kids learn survival techniques in the worst of circumstances, as Gurukul life prepares them for it. It prepares men who can bear with hardship without leaving the path of dharm.