Conservatives: How do you propose we colonize space?

Originally posted by CynicalDrivel

The thing is I don't see going into outer space as a means to improve humanity. I see it as escapism. Helping improve humanity is:
1.Feeding the poor, and getting them to the point where they can feed themselves.
2.Protecting everyone's rights.
3.Get us off a "teaching to the test" system.
5. Improving mass-produced food.

Until technology improves to resolve these issues, then ultimately they are non-issues.
All you put there in your 4 point (seems number 4 is missing) list is little more than practices of corruption. you can make a mountain of food, but some local yokel warlord in central africa stopping the supply tends to keep the problem in existence. we produce more than enough food worldwide to make everyone fat...but the supply line and corruption is the limiting factor here...and the only way to solve that is through a unified world effort (aka, a new world order)...and many of "you types" oppose that also, thinking the current world order is freaking awesome or something. So, another standstill, we got to deal with more luddites and short sighted paranoid fearmongers to slow down the progression of a type 1 and 2 civilization. our monkeys hold back evolution so to speak.

There has always been issues in the world, but progress does not wait for utopia before it proceeds..else we would still be sitting in caves. Science tends to help the problem.
The overall process of colonization may in fact resolve the issues you bring up actually...with new planets opened up, and the technology developed to live in space, lots of research will be put in efficient orbital and interstellar supplying without much risk...even have space farms if the senario was hypothetically a land verses farm issue...(which its not..its all about corruption).

The list goes on and on. Until we fix those things, building a habitat for humanity out there just insures that the b.s. we do out here is dragged with us out there. If Vulcans really existed, I'd not want them to meet who most of are right now.

We will never be a perfect species of hippy intellects...if there was some rule set in stone that we can only start colonization once we have no issues, you could take a time machine and go 6k years into the future and still see us on this rock complaining about some new issue that makes us not stack up to our ideals
But here is a thought
Because we see that we are not grown ups, makes us grown ups to an extent...we see our flaws, and by acknowledging it, we can work on them as they appear. A tiger that eats babies does not see this as an issue it needs to work on. We are not that bad actually, however the view that we as a species sucks is probably a nasty trait we tend to harbor...like a child learning to walk and cursing itself as a failure that it is not a graceful gymnast from the get-go

Yes, your overall complaint is to conservatives. but when you start a seperate posts aside from your opener that spews something about monkeys in the trees and praying for a spaceship, along with this statement, I'm going to deal with WHO PRAYS

The pagans?

and if I'm in the mood, the tree-monkey (as in WHO DOES THIS IRRITATE THE MOST?)

Monkeys?

RE: Christians.

Christians don't believe in monkeys?

The way this particular post I'm originally responding to makes it seem like you want to forever associate Christianity and Conservatism. You started it by saying prayer. As soon as you say something about prayer, you ask for a conversation about those who pray.

Your very self conscious about your religion it appears.
Not my concern.

Totally unrelated, but I am anti-religious...however, that doesn't really fit into here. The pray for spaceships was to demonstrate that they won't just magically appear and how absurd to think that somehow the space colonization part of our civilizations evolution will continue if we stop...you know..going into space.

Originally posted by caladonea
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

The first thing I thought of when I read the title to your thread is....it may be colonized already. I have a theory....I think that quite some time ago TPTB in several nations got together....and well.....many years later....there are already many humans from Earth living in space. You know all those people that are never ever found...no trace at all....some of them may be living experiments on other Planets.

Ok...now..go ahead and flame me...but before you do...remember...often times the truth sounds like a theory.

Not going to flame you, but just going to point out that its irrelevant.
If there is some secret space program that is filling up our neighborhood with different colonys, then chances are, they (secret organizations) won't be sharing the tech with us knuckledraggers anyhow, which means we need to push our mainstream public tech towards this

Then when we meet them in space, we can blast em...and hang all the politicians and such that kept this secret back on earth

I liken space to the "New World" colonies of the 17th and 18th Centuries.

Originally, there were government sponsered and funded expeditions to the New World.. the Americas. Initially, they obtained their goals of exploration and laying claims. However, it was joint ventures between governments and private interests or fully independent business ventures that settled and developed the New World.

Imagine opening up asteroids for mining, or building large self sufficient colonies circling the Earth with a commodity in mind...ie harnessed solar electricity, food production, medicine and drug production, industrial elements like crystals... or even entertainment...an orbital Las Vegas if you will.

Possibly orbital manmade satellites large enough to house thousands of people...a man-made moon...and the settlers were offered shares in ownership and a stake on that satellite in exchange for helping to develope it...kinda' like space age homesteading.

Or as posted, opening up the possibility of asteroid mining, as previously pointed out. Or better yet, relocating an asteroid into Earth orbit...mining it and homesteading the asteroid.... and building hundreds of green houses and terra-domes on the ateroid and then offering land shares in exchange for developing the asteroid for 5 years...again...spaceage homesteading.

It was exactly those types of enterprising ideas that settled America...not governments.

If you were offerred an oportunity to start over...brand new... with the idea of homesteading an asteroid settlement for 5 years, then you would get 100 acres of developed surface/subsurface for your ownership... and help with starting your own business or joint shares in an established business...

Would you take it..and be a spaceage homestead pioneer?

Now with that...comes the entreprenuers of space... weigh stations and space "truck stops" and space ports where you can buy/ sell/ trade...and then opportunities at the developements...restuarants, strip malls, UPS...FedEx back to Earth...

Inventors developing better and cheaper ways to move goods and services...ranchers in space... farmers markets with organically grown fruits and veggies....imagine, cabbages get huge in Alaska because of the long days...imagine a 200lb cabbage grown in a green house with permanant day light?

Of course then comes Coke distributors and Pizza Hut and KFC...wonder how big a chicken grows in space?

In my perfect world we NEVER reach the stars... It seems to me that the last thing Mars needs is a spaceship full of US destroying it and completely ROOTING it the same way we have done to this earth.

reply to post by SaturnFX


They may be unprofitable now. But eventually we will develop technologies that would allow us to do things like mine the moon, asteroids and other worlds. Many of these technologies exist in their infancy now, it's just a matter of streamlining them and putting them all together.

The wonderful thing about capitalists is that they are willing to risk their money to see certain dreams achieved.

Edit:
Star and flagged for such an interesting premise.

When I think of space exploration and colonization I don't think about the politics of it too much. The logistics and economics of it, sure. But the political aspect of your question is like asking if there's a conservative or liberal way of fixing a car engine when the process is a scientific one and straight forward irrespective of ones world view.

reply to post by SaturnFX



Hmm - I tend to lean right a few things but dunno if that makes me conservative. But, I'll give it a go...

First - I think "small government" and "conservative" may not go together as often as they are bandied about. For example, it seems like many conservatives want government out of their "day to day lives" and to have a reduced role in business, etc. So a small government there. However, they may be in favor of a big military and the like. So a big government there. Maybe for liberals its the opposite to some extent? Maybe everybody just kind wants the government to be big in all the right places as defined by them?

Hmm - that might make a good thread topic, but I digress.

However, going with the above premise and putting on my conservative hat - I'd assume the initial foray would be under the guise of some military endeavor or a combined government / business effort to stake a claim, grab resources, get loot, or obtain a strategic element before some other country did. That seems to be pretty much how it worked in Europe when much of the planet was an unknown to the "civilized world". History repeats from time to time.

reply to post by SaturnFX

In your idealistic world that you strive to create...how do we get to space? Do you think huge social space programs is an exception to your no/little government?

LoL Odd............

Wasnt it a liberal democract that killed NASAs ability to send man into space?

Seems like political baiting thread to me.......but i could be wrong

Conservatives know gov has to be there for SOME applications.........anyone with critical thinking skills knows this......

That being said, I think its cool that the private industry has taken up the mantle!

Good for us, invention is the mother of necessity ............

I suppose it could create jobs even....

Funny thing tho, I wonder where all that money we were using for our manned space flights went to?

I know some people hate this idea but a one world government (done right) will be the only way we would be able to do this. No one nation will have enough money to do something on this grand a scale. If we were all together citizens could pay for it in a humanity survival tax or something.

Originally posted by SaturnFX
Government puts down roads so companys can drive
Government builds the internet so tech companys can exist
Government does the big projects so little companys, like microsoft, can create their tiny machines and make use of it...but no, microsoft didn't invent the internet, or the computer...or even the operating system...they simply used the existing technology of the time, and the infrustructure that the government created in order to make something new and innovative using the infrustructure

While I am contemplating your interesting question I felt to address this. As this is assuming the exact opposite to what the poster you are replying to was implying. His stance (at least what I have gathered) is that such infrastructure would have come about regardless of government interjection and infusion to provide said infrastructure.

But while we are at it, lets look at infrastructure that doesn't conveniently play into your framed and narrow look. The history of the telephone, as we can see, wasn't driven by government's hand; rather private individuals and industry laying down the ground work to create the infrastructure.

This of course doesn't mean what you have stated above isn't true, but it is a half truth. It operates under the assumptions that roads would never be built, or that the idea of connecting users via the transmission of data over phone lines would never have come about, or that companies wouldn't devise technologies without the hand of government to engage in it.

If we want, we can say it was because of the vast infrastructure created by private industry borne from the telephone and its laying of lines was what made the Internet possible.

Now onto thinking about your initial question...

Originally posted by ManBehindTheMask
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

In your idealistic world that you strive to create...how do we get to space? Do you think huge social space programs is an exception to your no/little government?

LoL Odd............

Wasnt it a liberal democract that killed NASAs ability to send man into space?

No, it was 30 years of mismanagment, a deadline they absolutely knew was coming yet didn't prepare for it, and finally no again, a liberal democrat did not kill nasas ability..a conservative democrat did. Obama is about as liberal as the united seal clubbing society. Just because he is not a ultra right winger does not by default make him a liberal..he is a conservative moderate democrat...hense why liberals are up in arms about him for years now.

Seems like political baiting thread to me.......but i could be wrong

any discussion of politics can be called political baiting if you don't like the question. It was done respectively and with intent for an actual dialog though.

Conservatives know gov has to be there for SOME applications.........anyone with critical thinking skills knows this......

some do, yes..some don't. there is nothing in the constitution that demand government must explore space..and so arguably a conservative view is that if the constitution doesn't state it, then it should not be done.

That being said, I think its cool that the private industry has taken up the mantle!

Yes...hotels in space for millionaires, and for wealthy but short of multimillions, you can take a high flying aircraft and freefall for a few minutes. the rest of us should have decided to be rich if we wanted to have an opportunity for space travel.

I am fine with corporations taking over the venture..it will happen. but before the bus to the moon is invented, the road must be paved by big governments...commerce comes off the backs of infrustructure..be it a train track across the nation or a affordable form of transportation to mars

Good for us, invention is the mother of necessity ............

Not to nitpick, but you have that reversed. Necessity is the mother of invention (or innovation).
But, what will be the trigger for a serious investment into space travel and colonization? consider it for a few..in a corporate mindset, what would make you want to set up the first martian colony, or invest heavily on sublight engines or space bending warp propulsion? corporations are only worried about bottom line, governments are worried about a number of things, to include overpopulation, taxes, and gaining land with their flag under it..governments have therefore a basic need to expand out into space out of necessity..corporations would want to keep people crunched together to maximise profit potential without coming up with some sort of interstellar trade routes (load 400 crates of coke on a spaceship and go to space station omega...mhmm. coke is a dollar, plus 350 dollars expenses for transport)

Corporations will make a low orbit amusement park and maybe occasionally snag a closeby asteroid..that is as far as they will go considering that is all that is profitable for the short term.

I suppose it could create jobs even....

once the space industry is booming, lots of jobs will come from it, from simple transport ships, to mining, terraforming, etc etc etc...basically we will be back to promoting people to spit out babies due to having 500 job openings for every person...but only when the infrustructure is laid down to begin with...and that is the point of the conversation.
Frankly, if libertarian conservatism gets us to explore the stars, I am on board. I simply don't see it..such greatness requires unity of not just a state, and not even just a nation, but a concentrated united world effort...and in my opinion, the principles of corporatism over unity is the exact opposite direction..it almost assures us that we will not be leaving earth anytime soon should we embrace it more than we do already.

Funny thing tho, I wonder where all that money we were using for our manned space flights went to?

edit on 6-1-2012 by ManBehindTheMask because: (no reason given)

Google: war in iraq, war on terror, department of homeland security cost, etc.

Originally posted by Frogs
First - I think "small government" and "conservative" may not go together as often as they are bandied about. For example, it seems like many conservatives want government out of their "day to day lives" and to have a reduced role in business, etc. So a small government there. However, they may be in favor of a big military and the like. So a big government there. Maybe for liberals its the opposite to some extent? Maybe everybody just kind wants the government to be big in all the right places as defined by them?

As a liberal:
I want government to stay out of my personal day to day life completely..I want to be able to smoke, drink, and eat what I want. Be entertained by whatever I find entertaining (be it a violent video game, or stupid cat videos on youtube), etc...personal freedom to persue happiness.

I want government to be more active in keeping things I cannot control at bay, such as pollution from mega industries, or logging companies turning entire preserves into wastelands.

I want the military to be ultimately a defensive force with a adult conversation taking place every two years on what funding should be approprated..let them explain why we need 500 bases overseas during peacetime when we are concerned with defending only ourselves and maybe a few allies (like the uk, france, etc)..otherwise, close down and save money.

But in regards to this topic. I want the government to focus on the longevity of not only this nation, but of the legacy we leave..this means big projects..huge world changing projects. They did this with the invention of the internet, they made a start with the apollo missions, but its time we reach further...not settle down and do nothing. We need giant organizations fueled by all citizens to make our children and their children live in a new world of marvels..be it from evacuated tube transport, space colonization, or even deep underground and/or ocean cities. We need to step it up, or be considered the point in civilization where progression flopped beyond minor distraction technology.