The Confederate Flag: A Disturbing Trend?

reply to post by xEphon


The Confederate flag is not racist. The civil war was not about slavery. Only a small percent of the South owned slaves. YOU and those like you are the real racists speaking from a place of ignorance. I suggest you get your head out from the sand and do some real research!

The South did not secede over slavery, they seceded over "States Rights" verses intruding "Federalism". Go and read the declaration for secession given by the Southern States and then you'll know because they state the reasons for their decision.

In the States that seceded from the United States of America, slavery was only one of many arguments. Those that broke away believed that each State had the right to decided how each State is to run it's day to day life. Slavery was only just another part of that life, but it was not the reason for secession.

Some people really should read their history before they spout things. read the declarations for separation as expressed by the seceding States.

Originally posted by soaringhawk
reply to post by xEphon

 

The Confederate flag is not racist. The civil war was not about slavery. Only a small percent of the South owned slaves. YOU and those like you are the real racists speaking from a place of ignorance. I suggest you get your head out from the sand and do some real research!

They can't because they believe what they were taught. But as I said in my other post. I read the declarations of separation given by the seceding States and saw things differently.

reply to post by Fromabove


This my friends is silly. Symbols that you use to represent a subjective view point are just that symbols. You’re placing too much credibility in the objective view point of symbolism, which is ironic because the popular belief in these parts is that we are somehow controlled by malevolent forces that use symbolism to manipulate our sheepish minds. In essence you are giving credibility to your own ignorance. When someone raises a flag look at the person not the flag there you will find the "meaning". Especially when it is an individual! a group of people however is a different story. For instance a group of people called the KKK adopt the confederate flag as to represent another form of racism. However these people have made it clear that they are a group by wearing Nazi symbols by dressing in white robes with white pointed hoods by marching around and spewing racism but be realistic if some country boy raises a confederate flag but claims no racism to look at him as a racist in of it self defeats your understanding.

Originally posted by Fromabove
The South did not secede over slavery, they seceded over "States Rights" verses intruding "Federalism". Go and read the declaration for secession given by the Southern States and then you'll know because they state the reasons for their decision.

In the States that seceded from the United States of America, slavery was only one of many arguments. Those that broke away believed that each State had the right to decided how each State is to run it's day to day life. Slavery was only just another part of that life, but it was not the reason for secession.

Some people really should read their history before they spout things. read the declarations for separation as expressed by the seceding States.

edit on 17-9-2011 by Fromabove because: (no reason given)

" The condition of slavery with us is, in a word, Mr. President, nothing but the form of civil government instituted for a class of people not fit to govern themselves. It is exactly what in every State exists in some form or other. It is just that kind of control which is extended in every northern State over its convicts, its lunatics, its minors, its apprentices. It is but a form of civil government for those who by their nature are not fit to govern themselves. We recognize the fact of the inferiority stamped upon that race of men by the Creator, and from the cradle to the grave, our Government, as a civil institution, marks that inferiority." - Jefferson Davis in the Senate Chamber of the U.S. Capitol on February 29, 1860.

A class of people not fit to govern themselves. That sounds racist to me. And more quotes by Jefferson Davis...

"If slavery be a sin, it is not yours. It does not rest on your action for its origin, on your consent for its existence. It is a common law right to property in the service of man; its origin was Divine decree."
~Davis

"African slavery, as it exists in the United States, is a moral, a social, and a political blessing."
~Davis

"My own convictions as to negro slavery are strong. It has its evils and abuses...We recognize the negro as God and God's Book and God's Laws, in nature, tell us to recognize him - our inferior, fitted expressly for servitude...You cannot transform the negro into anything one-tenth as useful or as good as what slavery enables them to be."
~Davis

Hmm, the President of the Confederacy who approved the Confederate Flag, or the Bonnie Blue as it was called, sounds pretty convincing as a racist.

"[Slavery] was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation...it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts."
~Davis

"It [slavery] was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation...it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts...Let the gentleman go to Revelation to learn the decree of God - let him go to the Bible...I said that slavery was sanctioned in the Bible, authorized, regulated, and recognized from Genesis to Revelation...Slavery existed then in the earliest ages, and among the chosen people of God; and in Revelation we are told that it shall exist till the end of time shall come. You find it in the Old and New Testaments - in the prophecies, psalms, and the epistles of Paul; you find it recognized, sanctioned everywhere.".
~Davis

So what his real motivation?

Originally posted by TechniXcality
reply to post by Fromabove

 

This my friends is silly. Symbols that you use to represent a subjective view point are just that symbols. You’re placing too much credibility in the objective view point of symbolism, which is ironic because the popular belief in these parts is that we are somehow controlled by malevolent forces that use symbolism to manipulate our sheepish minds. In essence you are giving credibility to your own ignorance. When someone raises a flag look at the person not the flag there you will find the "meaning". Especially when it is an individual! a group of people however is a different story. For instance a group of people called the KKK adopt the confederate flag as to represent another form of racism. However these people have made it clear that they are a group by wearing Nazi symbols by dressing in white robes with white pointed hoods by marching around and spewing racism but be realistic if some country boy raises a confederate flag but claims no racism to look at him as a racist in of it self defeats your understanding.

I'm not sure if you are addressing me here, or saying something to me, but my issue is that the confederate flag is not a racist symbol it is a national symbol for a once independent South known as " The Confederate States of America. " I also saw the KKK and the Nazis holding Union American flags but that doesn't make the Union flag a racist symbol either.

reply to post by xEphon


I am near where you are and I see it too. It's disheartening. I have had multiple conversations about it. Proponents claim it's about government intrusion. I believe a portion of the Bill of Rights would better address their concerns. And I do believe that each proponent I have talked to is racist. Though, to be fair, some of them honestly don't realiize it.

reply to post by WarminIndy


I never once said that the South hated slavery. I only said that the South separated over the firm conviction the the central government was tyrannical and intruded upon the States. And they said so.

The blacks were considered inferior to most white people, slavers or not. They were not considered able to make decisions properly for themselves. But they believed what they were told. And that is what most white people believed.

BTW,. look at the condition of the black race today. Look at how they are duped by Jessie Jackson con men and white democratic plantation owners. Not much has changed since 1865 has it.

reply to post by Southern Guardian


Ok time for a history lesson first lets start with the states declarations as you called them this is incorrect by the way but the web site you quoted is being selective on what they show you. First there called Ordinance of Nullification this is how a state secedes from the union. Second Here is what georgia said here is there real document .

We the people of the State of Georgia in Convention assembled do declare and ordain and it is hereby declared and ordained that the ordinance adopted by the State of Georgia in convention on the 2nd day of January. In the year of our Lord seventeen hundred and eighty-eight, whereby the constitution of the United States of America was assented to, ratified and adopted, and also all acts and parts of acts of the general assembly of this State, ratifying and adopting amendments to said constitution, are hereby repealed, rescinded and abrogated. We do further declare and ordain that the union now existing between the State of Georgia and other States under the name of the United States of America is hereby dissolved, and that the State of Georgia is in full possession and exercise of all those rights of sovereignty which belong and appertain to a free and independent State. Passed January 19, 1861.

What your website is quoting is false this was not what they sent to Lincoln at all. Your reading revisionist history again slavery was one of the causes but in reality the smallest one. The major cause was taxes Lincoln had all ready stated he wasnt going to ban slavery. In fact because he was a republican ( There party platform was founded on abolishing slavery) is the reason he had to say he wasnt going to abolish slavery.

Now as far as your source claiming that taxes wasnt the issue because of what happened to Jackson well your wrong there too. "The South Carolina Nullification Controversy" an armed confrontation was avoided when Congress led by Henry Clay revised the tariff with a compromise bill. This new bill though not great allowed south Carolina to say they won a victory while the north still got taxes. To let you know how far it went Jackson went to congress and asked Congress to enact legislation permitting him to use federal troops to enforce federal laws in the face of nullification. Heres the kicker if this didn't occur Lincoln wouldn't have been able to use force because the constitution allowed a state to seceed.

PS one more thing as far as slaves were concerned the north the abolitionists were a small factor in the north at the time of Lincoln 4%. Do you really think the North sent people to die with only 4% of there population against slavery?? really???

Originally posted by KJV1611

Originally posted by reeferman
reply to post by xEphon

 

the Confederate Flag is NOT about racism..

its about FREEDOM....

Hear hear!! Star for you!

Did you read the quotes from Jefferson Davis about slavery? You read the Bible, so tell me what you think about slavery. And this is his inauguration speech.

www.factasy.com...
President Jefferson Davis's Inaugural Speech

Montgomery Alabama

Feb 18, 1861

GENTLEMEN OF THE CONGRESS OF THE CONFEDERATE STATES OF AMERICA, FRIENDS AND FELLOW-CITIZENS:

Called to the difficult and responsible station of Chief Executive of the Provisional Government which you have instituted, I approach the discharge of the duties assigned to me with an humble distrust of my abilities, but with a sustaining confidence in the wisdom of those who are to guide and to aid me in the administration of public affairs, and an abiding faith in the virtue and patriotism of the people.

Looking forward to the speedy establishment of a permanent government to take the place of this, and which by its greater moral and physical power will be better able to combat with the many difficulties which arise from the conflicting interests of separate nations, I enter upon the duties of the office to which I have been chosen with the hope that

the beginning of our career as a Confederacy may not be obstructed by hostile opposition to our enjoyment of the separate existence and independence which we have asserted, and, with the blessing of Providence, intend to maintain. Our present condition, achieved in a manner unprecedented in the history of nations, illustrates the American idea that governments rest upon the consent of the governed, and that it is the right of the people to alter or abolish governments whenever they become destructive of the ends for which they were established .

www.factasy.com...
Rest on next response....

............

Experience in public stations, of subordinate grade to this which your kindness has conferred, has taught me that care and toil and disappointment are the price of official elevation.

www.factasy.com...


www.factasy.com...

www.factasy.com...

That is his inauguration speech after declaring that God has blessed the nation with slavery.


Those all came from Factasy

www.factasy.com...

My first response was directed toward OP. A simple answering of a question, but after reading some of the other replies I have some thoughts.
I think people need to meet more in the middle.
YES, in the north especially the Confederate Flag is seen as a symbol of racial **** fill in the blank: superiority, hatred, ignorance, etc. But the word before that blank is definately "racial". I fully recognize, and so should some of the other posters, that it is different in much of the south. I have spent a good bit of time in the south and know people who are not racist and like the flag. And, let's be honest: it looks cool no matter what message it is being used to send.
Now, for those trying to tell the Confederate Flag folks that the Civil War was about slavery. I agree with the flag folk. It was not. And getting rid of slavery in the south was really more of a cunning strategy to pump up slave revolts behind enemy lines than it was about bettering the life of African Slaves.
There is an arugument that the Confederate Flag represents opposition to an overbearing and over reaching government.
I just think that there are better ways and symbols to represent such opposition given the way the symbol has become attached to racial hatred over the years. And that doesn't mean that the flag means that to everyone. But, it probably means it to a black person in the north so, in Pennsylvania at least, I think that if our current crew of rebels actually are protesting the government that they should really try to come up with a different rallying point. IF they can't come up with something else, well, that implies to me that they lack the kind of creative thought and intrinsic intelligence that would be required to make any meaningful changes to the current over reaching of the Federal Government.

reply to post by xEphon


the pentagram was once a christian image.

The swatzica was a symbol of peace.


Symbols change in meaning. They are never constant.

I want to clarify that I have not read anything other than the first post on this thread. I grew up in the south. At some point it appeared the confederate flag was a cool thing to display and maybe wear as a bandana on the head in my youth. Later in life i realized the significance of it being racist in some minds. If I offended anyone or I Hope it it not effect them to greatly.

'I post this to let some of you know that youth may display the flag and not really "get" all that it means. So I ask that you at least give people the benifit of the doubt when seeing such a display of the confederate flag. Not all young folks like me relized all that it could mean to everyone viewing it.


I of course would no longer display such things as not to cause anyone issues though I reserve the right to be stupid.

X

reply to post by TravisT


I stated this before.

If we worried about "offending" every single person with every action, we would never make a move.

In this regard, I really dont worry much about it. I'm proud of my flag and my picture of "the Good General" and Jeff Davis.

You can get glad in the same pants you got sad in pal.

Grow up, get over it, and mind your own business when it comes to how we Southerners conduct our business.

If you "sensitive" northerners had it all sewed up, why do you have such crappy race relations and crime up north? Hmmm? Down here we have a sort of "status quo".

White, Black, or Mexican. Step out of line and your card is gonna get pulled. Period.

Seems like yall have some "white" guilt and its got the best of ya.

For the record, there were PLENTY of folks working the fields down here that were white during the war.
Share croppers, or slaves. Its all the same in the wash.

BOTH sets of my grand parents and my maternal uncles did a bit in the fields as well.

This was during the 20th century also.

Can you say that?

Originally posted by watcher3339
My first response was directed toward OP. A simple answering of a question, but after reading some of the other replies I have some thoughts.
I think people need to meet more in the middle.
YES, in the north especially the Confederate Flag is seen as a symbol of racial **** fill in the blank: superiority, hatred, ignorance, etc. But the word before that blank is definately "racial". I fully recognize, and so should some of the other posters, that it is different in much of the south. I have spent a good bit of time in the south and know people who are not racist and like the flag. And, let's be honest: it looks cool no matter what message it is being used to send.
Now, for those trying to tell the Confederate Flag folks that the Civil War was about slavery. I agree with the flag folk. It was not. And getting rid of slavery in the south was really more of a cunning strategy to pump up slave revolts behind enemy lines than it was about bettering the life of African Slaves.
There is an arugument that the Confederate Flag represents opposition to an overbearing and over reaching government.
I just think that there are better ways and symbols to represent such opposition given the way the symbol has become attached to racial hatred over the years. And that doesn't mean that the flag means that to everyone. But, it probably means it to a black person in the north so, in Pennsylvania at least, I think that if our current crew of rebels actually are protesting the government that they should really try to come up with a different rallying point. IF they can't come up with something else, well, that implies to me that they lack the kind of creative thought and intrinsic intelligence that would be required to make any meaningful changes to the current over reaching of the Federal Government.

edit on 17-9-2011 by watcher3339 because: (no reason given)

Thank you well said i agree 100 %. I myself think it's not the best symbol to choose but im also not going to assume the person is a racist because they choose to fly a flag either. Intolerance has become the new norm. If you can brand someone you can invalidate what they have to say. Its used to silence people instead of promote debate People will never agree on everything the trick is to find the common ground and work from there.

One more thing whatever a symbol means to any individual doesn't give another the right to stop it. If someone wants to tatoo a swastika to their forehead so be it. Not until they kill or oppress others rights should we care.

Originally posted by Fromabove
The South did not secede over slavery, they seceded over "States Rights" verses intruding "Federalism"

Why don't we Deny Ignorance by going to a primary source. What did South Carolina say was the reason for secession?

avalon.law.yale.edu...

After discussing history and legalities, the first specific issue mentioned is slavery. Not just that South Carolina should be continued to allowed to enslave people, but that the North was failing to assist slaveholders in capturing and returning slaves, even if slavery were illegal in the Northern states.

In the present case, that fact is established with certainty. We assert that fourteen of the States have deliberately refused, for years past, to fulfill their constitutional obligations, and we refer to their own Statutes for the proof.

The Constitution of the United States, in its fourth Article, provides as follows: "No person held to service or labor in one State, under the laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labor, but shall be delivered up, on claim of the party to whom such service or labor may be due."

This stipulation was so material to the compact, that without it that compact would not have been made. The greater number of the contracting parties held slaves, and they had previously evinced their estimate of the value of such a stipulation by making it a condition in the Ordinance for the government of the territory ceded by Virginia, which now composes the States north of the Ohio River.

The same article of the Constitution stipulates also for rendition by the several States of fugitives from justice from the other States.

Is that "intruding"? No, they were angry that the Federal government did not sufficiently intrude in the affairs of the Northern states to force those states to perform acts which were morally repellent and illegal in those states.

We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.

Slavery was the only concrete issue discussed in this declaration of secession.

Now what else. The delegates of South Carolina was outraged further, by the gall of Northern states to start to treat blacks as humans deserving of natural rights, including voting:

This sectional combination for the submersion of the Constitution, has been aided in some of the States by elevating to citizenship, persons who, by the supreme law of the land, are incapable of becoming citizens; and their votes have been used to inaugurate a new policy, hostile to the South, and destructive of its beliefs and safety.

It's rather telling that the writers of the above implicitly acknowledged the obvious fact that almost no black citizen newly given the right to vote would ever vote to support slavery or be sympathetic to the South. Now why might that be?

In 1860, the actual reason for southern secession was slavery. Every other beef was minuscule in comparison.

Don't believe the retroactive and intentional cover-up intended to whitewash the moral blackness of the slaver's cause, evidence for which they themselves committed to paper and adopted as their justification.



.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by TravisT

Your perception on what side of the states has more racism is laughable

Park one night in Bordentown PA, at either the Pilot or the Petro, and turn on the CB.

Then tell me I'm wrong. The north hides it in dark shadows, but it is still there.

TheRedneck

Like the OP I am in PA and you are right. There is a lot of racism going on up here. I don't even need a CB to hear it and can't imagine how others are missing it.