I Was A Deluded 9/11 Truther

Originally posted by Elbereth
reply to post by Observor

 

Your whole position is depressing. What good is all your bleak pessimism and gloom and doom know it all-ism? Do you have anything constructive to offer, other than your deeply cynical assessments of what isn't possible short of armed insurrection?

Considering how hopelessly compromised you perceive the government to be, why do you even bother to comment? Sharing your special brand of sarcastic misery, are you?

Aren't we lucky.

I am doing here exactly what the "truthers" claiming to be doing, but don't, spreading the truth. I know it is depressing, but I never delude myself into thinking that the truth is somehow exhilerating. I go where it leads me. I am not afraid of what I find.

However, what most "truthers" seek is a sophisticated lie, not truth. A lie that you can pretend to believe without looking like an idiot or an outright liar. A lie that leaves some doubt in the mind of a sceptic that a believer is not necessarily an idiot or a liar. Your complaint with the OS is not that it is a lie, just that it doesn't meet these criteria.

However, the anthrax attacks don't bother you despite the official explanation being so outrageously silly because you are not being asked to believe it nor does anyone, including the FBI giving the explanation, claims to believe it. But you never raise it simply because you do not wish to be proved right regarding 9/11, you only want a sophistictaed lie that you can pretend proves you wrong. So you seek another commision that comes out with a sophisticated enough lie that is fundamentally no different but that you too can pretend to believe.

That was an extremely depressing thing to discover for me, that the "truthers" are nothing more than people seeking a lie that is not so obviously a lie as the present one.

But as I said, I go whereever the truth takes me, no preconditions on what the truth should be.

Originally posted by Elbereth
Considering the trillions that have been spent in response to 9/11, I don't think the expense of a rigorous, transparent, and untainted investigation can even be a consideration. There are so many things wrong with the OS as it stands, for example: the eyewitness testimony of multiple credible witnesses regarding the flightpath of AA77 at the Pentagon in glaring contradiction to the OS, that I don't see how we can just pretend there is no problem.

You do know that 9/11 happened 10 years ago right? Maybe you should think a bit more about having an "untainted, transparent, and rigurous investigation" after 10 years and maybe you will realize that that won't happen anymore because memories fade, and the evidence is gone because simply you can't have the body parts of almost 3,000 people littering New York city for days on end causing a contagion, and diseases to run rampant simply because some people wanted to conduct their own investigation.

And even if it was possible to make a new investigation there will be at least thousands of people if not more who will continue asking for the same "rigurous, untainted, and transparent investigations" after the 100th -1,000,000th time.

There have been multiple investigations, and quite a few were not done by government agencies but by engineers not affiliated with any government agency. If you want to look for them comb ATS old threads about this topic, and I am not talking about the ones about an "alien weapon was used to pulverize the towers", or a "mini-atomic weapon" was used.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse

Maybe you should think a bit more about having an "untainted, transparent, and rigorous investigation" after 10 years and maybe you will realize that that won't happen anymore because memories fade, and the evidence is gone because simply you can't have the body parts of almost 3,000 people littering New York city for days on end causing a contagion, and diseases to run rampant simply because some people wanted to conduct their own investigation.

I can't go along with the idea that we should not conduct a new investigation because it has been too long and would be too difficult. As I see it, one of the most compelling reasons we should conduct a new investigation is precisely because it has been so long, and the open wound of 9/11 needs to finally be sutured shut and put behind us. How can that be possible without a new investigation when you have had such glaring affronts to truth finding as the non-affirmed, hand holding Bush-Cheney tandem testimony or the unambiguous lying to the National Commission by the FAA and NORAD?

The idea that spoliation of the fire scene could not be avoided without exposing New York City to unacceptable health risks seems questionable to me, but I am no fire scientist or public health specialist.

And even if it was possible to make a new investigation there will be at least thousands of people if not more who will continue asking for the same "rigorous, untainted, and transparent investigations" after the 100th -1,000,000th time.

Why worry about what crazy people think?

There have been multiple investigations, and quite a few were not done by government agencies but by engineers not affiliated with any government agency. If you want to look for them comb ATS old threads about this topic,

They are not necessarily in agreement, and even the AIA and long-time former NIST fire science experts had some pretty caustic criticisms of the NIST report.

To paraphrase Observor, we need to find a way to go wherever the truth takes us, with no preconditions on what the truth should be. Perhaps we need a Truth Commission similar to South Africa's, but if we continue to pretend everything will be alright if we just look forward and not backwards, we are never going to reverse all the negative changes imposed since 9/11.

reply to post by Elbereth

I apologise for not being of any constructive help. So I decided I will help you guys draft a sophisticated and convincing lie that a new "Truth Commission" instituted by any US government can invent. Here follows the narrative.

There is a secret cabal with its tentacles into most of the wings of the government in key administrative, not political, positions. The CIA uncovers an al Qaeda plot to hijack planes in the US and fly them into buildings. However, the US already possesses the technology to take over control of and remotely control a plane in the event of a hijacking and the pilots of the planes boarded by the hijackers are routinely informed of this and this tested even before 9/11. So the US is very confident that the plan to hijack may succeed but not the plan to fly the planes into buildings. So they decide to let the hijackings take place, give stand down orders to NORAD, return the planes safely to the ground using the remote control technology, but obtain clinching evidence against Osama bin Laden and the terror networks. However unknown to the CIA, the FBI and other agencies of the US government, this cabal has hacked into the remote control software to take control when desired. Meanwhile a member of the cabal in the WTC towers arranges for demolition charges to be wired into the columns of WTC 1, 2 and 7 under the guise of repair works. These demolition charges are intended to be set off sometime after the planes hit the respective buildings and cause extensive damage for maximum effect.

So on that day, four planes are hijacked as expected by the cabal and CIA, the remote control technology is invoked, but to the shock of CIA the ground crew supposed to be in charge of the planes after the invocation of the technology are not in control. WTC towers 1 & 2 and Pentagon are hit as planned by the cabal. But in the case of the fourth plane, that was intended to hit WTC 7, the hijackers fail to take the plane over and hence the control was never gained by the hacker. In the case of WTC 1 & 2 the charges were triggered as planned, but WTC 7 presented a problem as it wasn't hit by a plane. So they allowed it to burn for a few hours before bringing it down. Everyone in the US administration, except for the cabal, are in a complete state of shock, since they all knew about the al Qaeda plan, but allowed it to happen trusting completely their ability to avert any damage. Why the software failed was something they cannot know an answer to immediately. What they were expecting to be their hour of great glory and victory became an hour of infamy and shame. The danger of al Qaeda getting emboldened was something that was unthinkable and an immediate response was needed. But suspicions were first raised when one of hijacker's passort was "found" and later two of the supposed hijackers turned up alive and one dead long before. When they looked into their sources for these names, they immediately realised there is a cabal manipulating the government for its own interests. This was terrifying, because that is when they suspected a conspiracy instead of a failed software! Some cabal with tentacles so deep into the different agencies of the US that they knew their entire plan to handle the attempted hijacking including a NORAD standdown. As other evidence about the put options on 9/10 started pouring in it was very clear who the enemy was. But it was impossible to say or do anything because it was unclear what the extent of penetration of this enemy is. It was also evident that any attempts to resist being manipulated by the cabal would result in more attacks on the United States.

The cabal's target was quite evident when the anthrax attacks came. The anthrax was of Iraqi origin. It is unthinkable that Saddam teamed up with al Qaeda and supplied them bioweapons that can be traced back to Iraq. It is equally unthinkable that al Qaeda managed to steal bioweapons from Iraq. So the only possibility left is that someone stole them, intended for use later on, from the weapons inspectors who were there in Iraq earlier to find and destroy WMD. For obvious reasons the weapons inspectors who lost some of the anthrax would simply keep quiet about it and declared it destroyed. That the anthrax found was of Iraqi origin was concrete evidence that someone was trying to set Iraq up using anthrax stolen earlier. In order to thwart their plans, US had to act quickly and they declared it to be of US origin, letting the cabal know that the US is in no mood to oblige them. But anger was building up within the country and someone needed to be attacked. Al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden continued to remain a threat and the extent of infiltration of the cabal into the US government agencies was still unknown.

Contd...

reply to post by Observor

,,,Contd

Also the cabal should not be alerted to the fact that the US government is wising up to its tactics until its its entire reach and capability is known. Invasion of Afghanistan became inevitable. Osama got killed during the raids on Tora Bora, but it could not be officially confirmed.

But the cabal didn't give up. Their target was not Afghanistan, but Iraq and Iran. So the US government continued to receive "credible" threats, all originating from the cabal sources, of impending biological attacks on US. The US government also knows the cabal can make good on the threats. It would be impossible for them to ignore a stand alone biological attack on the US regardless of the scale. They realised they have no choice but to invade Iraq, if they wanted to avoid a bioweapons attack on the US. Initially US tried to delay the attack by agreeing to the weapons inspectors returning to Iraq. But the pressure from the cabal was unrelenting. The US was getting increasing wary of this blackmail. They were not willing to be blackmailed forever into invading every Muslim country that the cabal deems its enemy. The ease with which the US ran over the Taliban in Afghanistan, left no military excuses for not invading Iraq that was already crippled by years of sanctions. However, the US government wanted to ensure that they cannot be blackmailed into invasion of another Muslim country. So they planned the invasion of Iraq in such a way that it would become a quagmire and after that the cabal would know that it cannot blackmail the US government into another invasion. George W Bush even tried desperately to lose the 2004 election, so that the new government could explain a change of foreign policy as a change of government. He all but admitted that he lied about the reasons for going to war on Iraq. However, things didn't pan out as expected and he got reelected which tied the US to the foreign policy of the previous years. However, they managed to turn Iraq into a mess, as planned, so that US becomes stuck and the cabal cannot blackmail them into another invasion.

By now it should be very clear which country's interests the cabal represents: Israel.

Despite Iraq becoming a quagmire, the cabal continued to pressure them on Iran. Initially the US, along with its other Western allies did a lot of posturing on Iran, threatening it with sanctions and so on. Of course there was no expectation that Iran would budge. The whole idea was to set up a scenario where Israel cannot backout, would do some silly thing that can be used as an excuse dump them and round up the traitors working for Israel and against the US. Israel even publicly threatened that unless something is done by the West to stop Iran's nuclear program by a certain date, it would be "forced to act" like it did with Iraq's nuclear program, meaning bomb Iran's nuclear facilities. After serious high level posturing by the West about Iran's nuclear program, the West suddenly dropped the matter right before the "deadline" set, hoping that Israel would deliver on the promise to bomb Iran's nuclear facilities, an event that can be used to impose UN sanctions on Israel and roundup all the traitors and make public the conspiracy. US can turn friends into foes in a matter of days, ask Saddam. However Israel didn't take the bait. But it also became clear to the cabal that they have been identified and have to tread carefully. The US also realised that the cabal is on the backfoot, but they can definitely launch a false flag attack by enabling al Qaeda to launch another attack and leaving clues pointing to Iran. It won't be possible to ignore such an attack nor pin it on any country that is already occupied by the US. One important way to remove any potential credibility for such attacks is to remove the one man whose face has become synonymous with Islamic Terrorism, Osama bin Laden. But the problem is he most likely died in Tora Bora with all the "messages" claiming to be him coming from the cabal, as the US already knows. The only way this charade of "messages" can end is if the US government can declare him dead. Hence the hunting and killing of Osama as launched by Obama. Now any "terrorist attack" on US can openly be investigated as a false flag attack and the cabal exposed. It is just a matter of waiting for the right opportunity to expose the cabal and admit to all the events since 9/11.

Contd...

reply to post by Observor

...Contd

So what is compelling about this narrative? It at once proves most of the people both the "truthers" and "debunkers" to be right. The "truthers" because a large conspiracy has been uncovered and the "debunkers" because the 19 al Qaeda hijackers (although a couple of identities are wrong) is true. The US is shown to be a victim of both al Qaeda (validating the "War on Terror") and treachery by special interests. It can continue to spread "freedom and democracy" in the Middle East without so much as an apology and win the hearts of Muslims for showing Israel its place. I can't think of a more perfect lie that would be welcomed by most Americans/Westerners. The US gives up so little and gains so much. This is a conspiracy that involves so few people that it is extremely easy to execute and remain not uncovered until the right time.

I am sure there are some rough edges that need to be smoothened out. But I will leave them to your commission to figure out. I can also help in the matter if there is a specific request

Now what American would want to be sceptical about such a finding or have the motivation to debunk it?

Hey conspiracy theorists!!! 9/11 was organized and conducted by an intelligent species, not fully known about. It was not Osama Bin Laden. He was just a pawn in their little charade. it was not aliens either, as 9/11 would have been too primitive for aliens. nope. Fact is the whole damn thing was the brainchild of...Big Foot!!!

Originally posted by Elbereth

I can't go along with the idea that we should not conduct a new investigation because it has been too long and would be too difficult.

It won't be too difficult, it would be impossible because all evidence is gone, and has been tainted, so wanting an "untainted investigation" is impossible at this time.

Originally posted by Elbereth
The idea that spoliation of the fire scene could not be avoided without exposing New York City to unacceptable health risks seems questionable to me, but I am no fire scientist or public health specialist.

You are not the first who actually doesn't know that leaving the exposed pieces of almost 3,000 people in the center of New York city would become a nightmare for the rest of the people of New York simply because you didn't think it through.

Entire cities have died from such carelessness in the past, and yes it can happen again if the area is not cleaned.

It has nothing to do with "hiding anything", but rather on the rest of the people in New York not to face diseases, and a blown out contagion simply because a few thousand people wanted their own investigations.

The same can be said of the people who keep asking for all the videos from the Pentagon. You people forget the Pentagon is a high risk security area, and if the government puts out all videos from the Pentagon, ANYONE can have access to these videos and see what areas the cameras cover, as well as the timing that the panning cameras have. In case you haven't thought it through, like so many others, there are lots of enemies out there that would love to have such information, hence why the government does not releases all the videos.

Originally posted by Elbereth

Why worry about what crazy people think?

So you consider yourself a crazy person? and if so, why spend even more money in a time when Americans have lost their jobs, the economy is on the floor yet you want to spend millions just to try to satisfy your curiosity, and that of some other people?

You know what you, and the rest of Americans should really be demanding? For an investigation into the trillions of dollars that have been "lost/stolen" by the Feds, and why they have threatened even Senators with bankrupting the U.S. if Senators don't do what the Feds want. That's what people should really be demanding.

Originally posted by Elbereth
They are not necessarily in agreement, and even the AIA and long-time former NIST fire science experts had some pretty caustic criticisms of the NIST report.

There are differences in the investigations, they all don't match simply because everyone would have a different perspective of what happened exactly.

Originally posted by Elbereth
To paraphrase Observor, we need to find a way to go wherever the truth takes us, with no preconditions on what the truth should be. Perhaps we need a Truth Commission similar to South Africa's, but if we continue to pretend everything will be alright if we just look forward and not backwards, we are never going to reverse all the negative changes imposed since 9/11.

Ah, no matter how many millions more are spent just to "try" to satisfy your curiosity, and let's be honest, you won't let up until the investigations says EXACTLY what you and some others want it to say, meanwhile millions of Americans are without jobs, and we are still through an economic crisis.

Instead of demanding for millions of dollars to be used to "satisfy your curiosity and for the investigation's conclusions to be what you want it to be" why not demand instead for our freedoms and liberties not to be taken away just because there are terrorist threats?...

Why not demand for the Feds to cough up the money they have "stolen" and claim "it lost" to help us through these though times?...

Why not demand in essence for the Feds to be dismantled since all they have done is put us in this bankruptcy and they just want to make it worse apparently?...

But no, instead you want to waste millions of dollars to satisfy your curiosity, and only until the investigation says what you want it to say.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse

It won't be too difficult, it would be impossible because all evidence is gone, and has been tainted, so wanting an "untainted investigation" is impossible at this time.

Much of the evidence resides in people’s heads and they can be placed under oath and interrogated, and much of the physical evidence was retained and can be reassessed. The evidence has not vanished into thin air like JFK’s brain. Your view of what is possible is overly limited.

You are not the first who actually doesn't know that leaving the exposed pieces of almost 3,000 people in the center of New York city would become a nightmare for the rest of the people of New York simply because you didn't think it through.

James G. Quintiere, Professor, Department of Fire Protection Engineering, University of Maryland, with over 35 years of experience in fire research and who worked in the fire program at NIST for 19 years, leaving as a division chief, made the following criticism of the NIST investigation:

"Spoliation of a fire scene is a basis for destroying a legal case in an investigation. Most of the steel was discarded, although the key elements of the core steel were demographically labeled. A careful reading of the NIST report shows that they have no evidence that the temperatures they predict as necessary for failure are corroborated by findings of the little steel debris they have. Why hasn't NIST declared that this spoliation of the steel was a gross error?"

Based on James G. Quintiere’s assessment that the spoliation of the WTC fire scene should have been declared a “gross error,” I have to conclude that he would disagree with you that the spoliation could not have been avoided and was an inevitable consequence of the authorities safeguarding the health of New Yorkers.

Of course the hazardous biological material needed to be safely and respectfully collected and processed as quickly as possible, but there really is no excuse for such much relevant physical evidence being unavailable to investigators.

Entire cities have died from such carelessness in the past, and yes it can happen again if the area is not cleaned.

Examples? Sorry, but this strikes me as hyperbolic.

The same can be said of the people who keep asking for all the videos from the Pentagon. You people forget the Pentagon is a high risk security area, and if the government puts out all videos from the Pentagon, ANYONE can have access to these videos and see what areas the cameras cover, as well as the timing that the panning cameras have.

I just don’t find this plausible. At a facility as secure as the Pentagon, the panning likely overlaps and/or is routinely altered for just this reason. We still don’t have video from the Citgo and other private facilities adjacent to the Pentagon. Why not?

In case you haven't thought it through, like so many others, there are lots of enemies out there that would love to have such information, hence why the government does not releases all the videos.

Enemies that we have needlessly created in order to feed the war machine, or do you think they hate us for our freedoms?

So you consider yourself a crazy person? and if so, why spend even more money in a time when Americans have lost their jobs, the economy is on the floor yet you want to spend millions just to try to satisfy your curiosity, and that of some other people?

O…..K……? I agreed with you that anyone who was questioning 9/11 “after the 100th -1,000,000th” investigation, as you put it, would be crazy. If you believe that my agreeing with you implies that I think I am a crazy person, so be it, or are you claiming that there have already been hundreds or millions of investigations?

As for your economic argument against a new investigation, America can afford to know the unvarnished truth about 9/11, and if knowing that truth keeps us out of just one unwarranted conflict overseas, it will pay off for this country handsomely, although I find the notion of requiring a cost/benefit analysis before proceeding to seek the truth concerning the seminal event of our time hard to wrap my mind or my morals around.

Instead of demanding for millions of dollars to be used to "satisfy your curiosity and for the investigation's conclusions to be what you want it to be" why not demand instead for our freedoms and liberties not to be taken away just because there are terrorist threats?...

Not sure who you are quoting here, but I do know it wasn’t me. Are you quoting yourself? Just asking.

Why not demand for the Feds to cough up the money they have "stolen" and claim "it lost" to help us through these though times?... Why not demand in essence for the Feds to be dismantled since all they have done is put us in this bankruptcy and they just want to make it worse apparently?... But no, instead you want to waste millions of dollars to satisfy your curiosity, and only until the investigation says what you want it to say.

Let’s do it! But why do you think it must be an either or proposition?

I've noticed a lot of 'reformed truther' posts lately... I guess this 9/11 anniversary is infectious to the brain. It causes us to revert our ignorance to what it was on 9/11.

The PNAC calling for a new Pearl Harbor to amp up defense spending, to start multiple simultaneous wars... This was coincidence... as was the fact that the signatories of this document took office just months after writing it, and 'this generation's Pearl Harbor" as it was called on the news for the weeks that followed 9/11, was also just a coincidence.

Bush and Cheney's requirement to not go under oath and only testify together in the same room at the same time... just standard operating procedure... nothing to see there.

Donald Rumsfeld slipping up and saying the plane over Pennsylvania was shot down... well even if that was truth, it had nothing to do with the towers, and I'm sure if it was a lie that slipped it was the only lie...

And of course the intentional manipulation by the Bush Administration to get us into war with Iraq... even though it was manipulation, it doesn't mean they were responsible for 9/11... only that they were exploiting it for the purposes of that plan they wrote a year before... It was just blind luck that that New Pearl Harbor happened and allowed them to initiate that plan.

And the burning pools under the towers for weeks afterwards. That's probably normal...

And the pop pop explosions jetting out the side of the towers as it collapsed... Just a little pressure releasing..

Nothing to see here... the totality of all these issues and many more mean nothing.

The main point is 9/11 was not an inside job... it was total dumb luck and a gift from the gods for the signatories of the PNAC to fulfill their plan. To think otherwise is just silly.

reply to post by spiritualzombie


It's probably just an effect of one person doing it, and others following suit.

9/11 probably brought in some new/old people, and badaboom, there you go.

Originally posted by spiritualzombie
I've noticed a lot of 'reformed truther' posts lately... I guess this 9/11 anniversary is infectious to the brain. It causes us to revert our ignorance to what it was on 9/11.

How do you know they were "truthers" at one time? Just because they say so?

reply to post by spiritualzombie


A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing... + people are hard-wired to see patterns...

this is what your post represents...

Originally posted by captainnotsoobvious
reply to post by spiritualzombie

 

A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing... + people are hard-wired to see patterns...

this is what your post represents...

Of course, the safest thing is to assume one doesn't know enough, refuse to see any patterns and then let the government tell one exactly what to believe, right? Makes me wonder what you are doing on this forum in the first place!

reply to post by Observor


I think you've just clearly identified your own problem.

You're not interested in facts, you're interested in anti-government conspiracies... the thing is you're not denying ignorance, you're embracing it as long as it suits your ideology.

You treat this place like a church, typically I am and interested conspiracy agnostic.

Originally posted by Observor

Originally posted by captainnotsoobvious
reply to post by spiritualzombie

 

A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing... + people are hard-wired to see patterns...

this is what your post represents...

Of course, the safest thing is to assume one doesn't know enough, refuse to see any patterns and then let the government tell one exactly what to believe, right? Makes me wonder what you are doing on this forum in the first place!

There's a difference between seeing patterns and making up your own lines as you go along.

The Truth Movement tends to jump directly from "this is odd" to "must be the government conspiring to kill people by planting bombs in a building and duping everyone involved into thinking that it was not a demolition. Oh, and for giggles, they demo'd building 7, just to see if they could get away with it."

Not understanding why something happened does not validate another theory all of a sudden. That new theory needs just as much evidence, and I don't see the Truth Movement offering the evidence.

Originally posted by captainnotsoobvious
reply to post by Observor

 

I think you've just clearly identified your own problem.

You're not interested in facts, you're interested in anti-government conspiracies... the thing is you're not denying ignorance, you're embracing it as long as it suits your ideology.

You treat this place like a church, typically I am and interested conspiracy agnostic.

So make declarations about what you are and what others are and think you actually made an argument there? Totally convincing I must agree.

Originally posted by Varemia

Originally posted by Observor

Originally posted by captainnotsoobvious
reply to post by spiritualzombie

 

A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing... + people are hard-wired to see patterns...

this is what your post represents...

Of course, the safest thing is to assume one doesn't know enough, refuse to see any patterns and then let the government tell one exactly what to believe, right? Makes me wonder what you are doing on this forum in the first place!

There's a difference between seeing patterns and making up your own lines as you go along.

The Truth Movement tends to jump directly from "this is odd" to "must be the government conspiring to kill people by planting bombs in a building and duping everyone involved into thinking that it was not a demolition. Oh, and for giggles, they demo'd building 7, just to see if they could get away with it."

Not understanding why something happened does not validate another theory all of a sudden. That new theory needs just as much evidence, and I don't see the Truth Movement offering the evidence.

Nor is it the business of the "Truth Movement" to offer alternative explanations or evidence for it.

By the way, I have repeatedly asked many "debunkers" to say if they believe the official explanation for the anthrax attacks. If you don't, what is your explanation and what evidence do you have for it? If you do, I would be fooling myself if I tried to treat you as a person capable of coming to rational conclusions from available evidence.

this is the last time I post anything to do with 9/11/2001

who cares what you think, where is the evidence and what does it say?

nano thermite, steel removed and shipped to china before investigation, molten steel falling from windows before collapse, jet fuel vs steel problem, not to even begin to mention the pentagon, or norad, or the recently released audio from the planes themselves which are just haunting, when will you see past the official story?

im out, peace, deny ignorance, yada yada etc.

reply to post by whatsinaname


someone's faith being questioned huh?