Afghanistan — A suicide bomber driving a truck attacked an advance NATO combat post in central Af

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
Battles?

Yeah, Battles...

That's what you've been claiming we have been losing in.
You know, name a major Battle where they have won and we have lost.

edit on 11-9-2011 by SLAYER69 because: (no reason given)

The Taliban has a lot of well-trains forces of NATO nations.

This isnt on cnn. And they do not let trucks get close to bases or check points without them first stopping or bieng shot.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
You know, name a major Battle where they have won and we have lost.

They say that about Vietnam too. But we lost that one.

Speaking of Vietnam, for a decade we were told that the survival of Western Civilization depended on winning over there. Then the enemy took over, and five minutes later no one wanted to talk about it. And that's what's going to happen in Afghanistan. At the end of the day, they will still be there, and we will not be. It's only a matter of how many more billions we poor down that rathole and how many more people die needlessly.

reply to post by SLAYER69


I'll put it this way.
Even if the US won every single "battle", the last 10 years of winning battles has done NOTHING to achieve a victory against the shabbily armed Afghans...

reply to post by starviego


Covered and discussed here already.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

I'll put it this way.
Even if the US won every single "battle", the last 10 years of winning battles has done NOTHING to achieve a victory against the shabbily armed Afghans...

OK so...

You still cannot support your claim about the US is losing or as you claimed the "taliban are stopping the US war machine in its tracks" With anything other than rhetoric, no links or any real facts just opinion.

Fair enough.

Originally posted by Unvarnished
reply to post by Kemal

 

I'm from Afghanistan and I can tell you that Afghanistan is much worse now under U.S. occupation than it ever was in its history. I agree with you that the Taliban are idiots but they atleast controlled the drug trade and made sure it was banned. Nowadays, drugs, rape, and prostitution is so rampant in Afghanistan that it is pathetic. I really wish Afghanistan was much more like Turkey in modernity, but now since we are occupied, it will only take awhile before we reach that stage.

Where do you live now?
When did you leave Afghanistan?
Why haven't you gone back and fight for your people?
How old were you when you left?
When was the last time you were there?

Originally posted by Se7enex
reply to post by nenothtu

 

We've caused 300 times the casualties of 9/11. Is this not enough?

No.

When the last jihadi is dead and buried, THEN it will be enough.

Not until.

Until then, they are still a threat. Once dead, they don't look all that threatening.

reply to post by SLAYER69

You still cannot support your claim about the US is losing or as you claimed the "taliban are stopping the US war machine in its tracks" With anything other than rhetoric, no links or any real facts just opinion.

That a superpower (the US) has not defeated the Taliban, despite 10 years of fighting is not my opinion, but a fact.

If the US war machine was not stopped in its tracks, it would have utterly defeated the taliban.
That is not the case, however.

The Founding Fathers would take a dim view of this foreign entanglement. Oh if only this nation could remember what they knew! But hey, what are they compared to the Pentagon's pogues of today?


"Of all the enemies to public liberty, war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes. And armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few. In war, too, the discretionary power of the Executive is extended. Its influence in dealing out offices, honors, and emoluments is multiplied; and all the means of seducing the minds, are added to those of subduing the force of the people. The same malignant aspect in republicanism may be traced in the inequality of fortunes, and the opportunities of fraud, growing out of a state of war, and in the degeneracy of manners and morals, engendered by both. No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare."
-- James Madison, April 20, 1795


/

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

You still cannot support your claim about the US is losing or as you claimed the "taliban are stopping the US war machine in its tracks" With anything other than rhetoric, no links or any real facts just opinion.

That a superpower (the US) has not defeated the Taliban, despite 10 years of fighting is not my opinion, but a fact.

If the US war machine was not stopped in its tracks, it would have utterly defeated the taliban.
That is not the case, however.

Because you know the time it takes to defeat an army of guerilla fighters....You don't know anything really, you're just spewing nonsense.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Seriously?

That's the best you can do?

Really?

Pathetic...

I'm out, Going to the hardware store. I'm sure I'll find something in the plumbing section that will remind me of this discussion.

but all they are really doing is fighting against a foreign occupation. I am positive Americans would do the exact same

reply to post by Se7enex




Well, we just might be in that position when all the world hates our guts and we allowed our sovereignty to be siezed by the UN and by Statist Totalitarians who have allowed huge trade deficits with China while borrowing from them to build up a massive govt bureaucracy. I half expect to wake up any day with Blue Helmets knocking on the doors.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n

The jihadis you are talking about come from the local population.... the ones who live in that country thats supposed to be rebuilt. They dont want the US there..... the longer you stay, the more reason these locals have to turn into these jihadis that the US is trying to fight.

I can honestly say that I don't care if they are locals or imported to Afghanistan from Kokomo Indiana. If they are Jihadists, I want them dead - too dead to stink. I don't care, not even a little bit, where they are from, or where they are at right now. I only care what they are doing or planning to do.

The pesky taliban are afghans!

So? Your point is? See above. They are still jihadis.

As for power vacuum... the US had its golden chance to get in there after the Russian defeat...when the US was "liked" there... the US blew it.

Agreed. I was among those preaching to high heaven that we do otherwise in the aftermath of that war, but it fell on deaf ears - the ears of those same politicians you are so reluctant to assign any responsibility to. You can't go in and tear the crap out of a place that is "friendly", and leave it torn up if you expect to maintain friends there. Friends help friends, and by not doing so in the aftermath of the Soviet Afghan War, we didn't show ourselves to be very trustworthy as friends. By that same logic, we cannot simply cut and run away from Afghanistan yet AGAIN. This time, WE broke it, WE bought it, and WE better fix it.

So yeah, we're still there, and will need to be for some time to come. I don't advocate "nation building" or installing a US style "democracy" there - that will NEVER work, I don't care how many politicians claim it will. What we ought to do instead is help them to build the infrastructure they need to determine their own future. That's how stability is gained - when there is enough leisure to explore higher pursuits - NOT by installing foreign ideologies that will be resented by the population in question. That's how the Soviets got in their mess. They installed "socialism", which is as inimical to basic Islam as democracy is. Oddly, and counter-intuitively, Taliban style "fundamentalism" is ALSO inimical to basic Islam - that's why there was a Northern Alliance in opposition to it in the first place.

Now it has this stupid unwinnable war with no end in sight to deal with.

NO war is unwinnable. It's all in how you approach it. We are approaching it wrong, in my opinion. Alexander won in Afghanistan. Genghis won in Afghanistan. Afghans are not "undefeatable", and neither is the US. It's all in the approach.

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by Se7enex
reply to post by nenothtu

 

We've caused 300 times the casualties of 9/11. Is this not enough?

No.

When the last jihadi is dead and buried, THEN it will be enough.

Not until.

Until then, they are still a threat. Once dead, they don't look all that threatening.

Well, I guess they think just like you. Just because the US have uniforms and good guns does not mean they are right.

Then again, Afghanistan is scary. So scary I think they are ready to kill Muslims too. You know for the better " Islam " That is the only thing that makes me happy knowing the US is in there.

Originally posted by Unvarnished
reply to post by Kemal

 

I'm from Afghanistan and I can tell you that Afghanistan is much worse now under U.S. occupation than it ever was in its history. I agree with you that the Taliban are idiots but they atleast controlled the drug trade and made sure it was banned. Nowadays, drugs, rape, and prostitution is so rampant in Afghanistan that it is pathetic. I really wish Afghanistan was much more like Turkey in modernity, but now since we are occupied, it will only take awhile before we reach that stage.

Really? Are you too young to remember Soviet bombs in the shape of children's toys? Supposedly that is how Bin Ladin got his start there, by working with the US to get rid of the Soviets.....something to ponder. But why were the Soviets there in the first place?

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus

But why were the Soviets there in the first place?

to answers your question, the Soviets were there in the 1st place in request of a soviet-puppet communist Democratic Republic of Afghanistan to quell down the anti-communist Afghan rebels who were trying to overthrow the government. The United States, Britain, Israel, People's Republic of China(look up Sino-Soviet split), and other Islamic states saw this as a proxy war in the Cold War struggle and starting arming the anti-communist Afghan rebels.

We aided anyone that is anti-communist in the Cold war regardless of brutal dictatorships and such. Lesser than two evils.

Originally posted by goh13

Well, I guess they think just like you. Just because the US have uniforms and good guns does not mean they are right.

You're right, they do, and there's a good reason for that. All that means is that it will be a war to the death - of one or the other. Doesn't really matter all that much which. If they all die in the end, we'll have our peace, and if we all die in the end, we won't much care what goes on after that.

Then again, Afghanistan is scary. So scary I think they are ready to kill Muslims too. You know for the better " Islam " That is the only thing that makes me happy knowing the US is in there.

You seem to be mistaking a country for an ideology. it's not "Afghanistan" that is so scary - I know some damned fine Afghans - it's the fundamentalism embodied in the Taliban and allied groups which is scary, and willing to even kill other muslims for "greater Islam".

Seriously - Islam needs to get it's own mess settled out in that regard. Ask a typical Pakistani (typically sunni) what he thinks of Iranians (typically shiite), and you'll begin to see how deep that particular animosity within their own ranks runs.

It's a lot like the rift between Catholics and Protestants in Christianity during the Inquisition, and even up to today to a lesser extent. At least Christians ain't usually killing each other over minor doctrinal differences nowadays, even if a degree of animosity remains.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus

Originally posted by Unvarnished
reply to post by Kemal

 

I'm from Afghanistan and I can tell you that Afghanistan is much worse now under U.S. occupation than it ever was in its history. I agree with you that the Taliban are idiots but they atleast controlled the drug trade and made sure it was banned. Nowadays, drugs, rape, and prostitution is so rampant in Afghanistan that it is pathetic. I really wish Afghanistan was much more like Turkey in modernity, but now since we are occupied, it will only take awhile before we reach that stage.

Really? Are you too young to remember Soviet bombs in the shape of children's toys? Supposedly that is how Bin Ladin got his start there, by working with the US to get rid of the Soviets.....something to ponder. But why were the Soviets there in the first place?

edit on 11-9-2011 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)

I don't recall any bombs made to look specifically like toys, but I remember these little mines they would seed from helicopters. They had two sides, one fat and one flat, that were sort of triangular. The flat side acted as a wing for the drop, and the fat side had about 4 ounces of explosives. They were green, and some were tan, and unless you looked real close, you might miss 'em and get a foot blown off from stepping on them. Sometimes kids would find them and think they were some kind of toy, and tragedy ensued. the Soviets would drop them in clusters from helicopters flying over suspected Mujahideen pathways, in area denial operations. Since they fell on and near the trails, kids found them too.

Bin Laden never worked with the US. He went so far as to refuse and repulse any offers of aid from the US, claiming that he wanted a "pure Islamic" victory. Most of his gig in that war was in construction, rather than any actual fighting. He brought his own (family) money and equipment, and could build a hell of a bunker. As a matter of fact, he had a hand in "improvements" to the natural caves at Tora Bora and in the Milawa Valley, which is how he knew so much about them when we went in. He was last seen in Afghanistan in the Milawa valley at a shack, and they lost him there. Some of those caves will allow border crossing into Pakistan without danger of being seen at the surface, and I believe that's probably how he got from Afghanistan into Pakistan. I have a copy of an old Soviet tactical map of that area, where they were trying to map out all the caves and tunnels preparatory to an assault on Tora Bora. There are 62 caves marked on the map, and that ain't even near all of them. They never successfully assaulted there.

The Soviets were there in the first place because they had installed a "Socialist" government in Kabul, which didn't set very well with the muslims. A group assaulted the Soviet embassy and beheaded about a dozen of the embassy staff. The Soviets pressured the Afghan Government to ask for help in preserving "the People's Revolution", and when they did, the tanks started rolling in from the north.

Geraldo Interviews Marine who admits Opium fields guarded by U.S. troops in Afghanistan

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