Could Immortals be living among us?

Let's (for a moment only) assume that one or more immortal's physically co-exist within humanity.
Obviously taking such an "immortals" word at face value would patently be grossly insufficient.
Therefore what would you require as solid and indisputable proof or evidence of such existence ?

Originally posted by methuselah1937
Let's (for a moment only) assume that one or more immortal's physically co-exist within humanity.
Obviously taking such an "immortals" word at face value would patently be grossly insufficient.
Therefore what would you require as solid and indisputable proof or evidence of such existence ?

Decent question! I think it would be extremely difficult, especially if the person managed to maintain internal consistency. Some of the really good stories out there have fallen apart when some aspect strained credulity beyond belief, literally. Bob Lazar comes to mind, as does John Titor. I'm having a hard time right now with Ben Abba's story because of the teeth, which he says were washed with oregano to preserve then, which turned them black. Sorry, but teeth wear out. They are also inanimate. You're going to have to come up with a mechanism that would explain that. Also, Abba's 2800 year old guy just happens to have conversed with a Who's Who list of ancient celebrities, from Jesus to Cleopatra, from Peter the Great to Ghengis Kahn. That sounds very hokey to me. That's a problem with "Man from Earth," too, though as a plot device, probably necessary to provide tension to the story.

Actual proof would be very difficult to authenticate. In the story, "Long Live Walter Jamison" the professor actually had a Civil War photograph of himself as a Union officer in a group portrait with General Ulysses S. Grant. (This was a half-hour Twilight Zone episode, so they had to move fast. A two second shot of that pic said a great deal.) It's not so much the photograph itself, but the photo in context with the rest of the story that made it more believable. Right now we have a 19th century photograph of a man who looks remarkably like Nicholas Cage floating around, so some more credulous people have decided Cage is an immortal vampire. But the photo has no context at all. To a normal person, that is not convincing evidence; it's coincidence.

A lot would depend upon the cooperation of this individual. I see little reason for him to cooperate at all, but let's assume for the moment that he desires to prove himself immortal. I would ask for serious evidence of knowing several languages fluently, including Latin and Greek. There are people alive today conversant enough in those languages to be able to pass judgment on fluency. Depending on our timeframe, I would look for modern European and Middle Eastern languages as well, such as Arabic and Farsi. I'd also take him on a horseback ride and see if he could drive a clutch.

The next thing I would do is conduct a Top Secret/SCI security investigation equivalent. It is only fairly recently that documentation of a person is as good as it is, Obama notwithstanding. After all, he had several million dollars and a room full of lawyers to assure his documentation. Historically, if someone wanted to change identities, all he had to do was move. There's no reason to suppose an immortal has gained modern technical skills sufficient to insert himself into the historical record. If such an investigation produced anomolies, plus no one at all who remembered "growing up" with this guy, then that would tend to be a point in his favor. With privacy laws being what they are, this kind of investigation would be extremely difficult.

Basically I would approach the problem by attempting to prove he is normal. I'm fairly certain that the people running around the Net these days claiming to be immortal are simply playing a game with themselves and others. They could be 'brought to justice,' but then, claiming you are immortal isn't illegal unless it involves defrauding someone else.

So about all you could do is try to prove the story teller normal. If you could not do that, plus if he had a coherent story coupled with some documentation, and knew several languages, then you could not prove he was not, a kind of double negative "proof" that still was not definitive. If you could hang out with this guy for thirty years, you might be able to tell by personal observation.

In the end it would be a very difficult task that few individuals could afford to pursue, and you have to ask yourself, to what end? If you investigate John Oldman and find out to your satisfaction that he really is old, but has no idea, after 14,000 years, why, then what have you gained? If he has "the secret" that would certainly be motivation, but somehow I doubt it is that simple or more people would have stumbled upon it.

reply to post by jjf3rd77


I read that book a while ago, its also a movie....good story
but wouldnt one get bored with living such a long time?

Originally posted by HomerinNC
reply to post by jjf3rd77

 

I read that book a while ago, its also a movie....good story
but wouldnt one get bored with living such a long time?

Sorry Homer. It was never a book, just a movie. I also don't see how any moderately curious individual would eveer get bored.

I believe it's possible that immortals could be living among us simply because I believe we haven't yet come close to figuring out the mysteries of our existence.

Although I was raised without religion, I do believe that there are aspects of our mortality that are beyond our understanding. This belief is based on the work of Ian Stevenson, a medical doctor who traveled the world documenting verifiable cases of children who remember past lives. Not every case is convincing but the sheer volume of accounts, many of which are indeed verifiable, suggests that reincarnation exists.

Clearly we haven't yet figured out reincarnation and it serves to follow that there could be many other mysteries we have yet to discover with respect to our mortality.

As to how a person who has lived a great many years could be verified, perhaps those in the medical profession might eventually be able to lead us to answers.

I'm not an immortal, but I have met one. His name was Saint Germain and he proved very fast to me that he was indeed an immortal and an alchemist. He told me he had met many people throughout history, that he walked with Jesus Christ one day, that he met and spoke to Dante Alegeri about his epic poem The Divine Comedy, that he saw the death of Napoleon with his own eyes, he also claimed to have sailed with Columbus and have seen the assassination of Abraham Lincoln with his own eyes.

I asked him how he became an immortal, and if it was possible for others to attain it. He stated that it was possible, but he wouldn't explain to me how. Just that other people, if they could discover how to live forever, are very possible in doing it.

Originally posted by Reaching
Clearly we haven't yet figured out reincarnation and it serves to follow that there could be many other mysteries we have yet to discover with respect to our mortality.

As to how a person who has lived a great many years could be verified, perhaps those in the medical profession might eventually be able to lead us to answers.

Perhaps they might, but we're not talking about reincarnation, which entails some sort of soul inhabiting different bodies one after another. That's what Stevenson studied among childfren in India, where reincarnation is much more accepted than it is here.

We're talking about physical immortality where one person stays in the same body for a very long time right here on Earth and avoids disease and aging. That's an entirely different issue. One does not preclude the other; both could be happening. Indeed, that's part of the issue. If reincarnation is true, would you be doing yourself a disservice seeking it out? Would you be slowing down your own progress?

And how could you tell, as methusela asks, particularly interesting in light of this thread

Originally posted by Deus Ex Machina 42
I'm not an immortal, but I have met one. His name was Saint Germain and he proved very fast to me that he was indeed an immortal and an alchemist. He told me he had met many people throughout history, that he walked with Jesus Christ one day, that he met and spoke to Dante Alegeri about his epic poem The Divine Comedy, that he saw the death of Napoleon with his own eyes, he also claimed to have sailed with Columbus and have seen the assassination of Abraham Lincoln with his own eyes.

This strains credulity. St Germain just happens to walk with Jesus, knows Dante, sailed with Columbus, and personally witnesses the deaths of both Napolean and Lincoln. What are the chances of that? Near zero. I'd be interested in hearing how you became convinced this guy was immortal. That bears on the discussion.

reply to post by schuyler


Hi Schuyler,

I didn't suggest that reincarnation and immortality are the same issue. I suggested that since there is evidence of reincarnation and we haven't yet figured out this phenomenon, there are likely other facets of our existence beyond our understanding, including possibly, immortality.

Originally posted by Deus Ex Machina 42
I'm not an immortal, but I have met one. His name was Saint Germain and he proved very fast to me that he was indeed an immortal and an alchemist. He told me he had met many people throughout history, that he walked with Jesus Christ one day, that he met and spoke to Dante Alegeri about his epic poem The Divine Comedy, that he saw the death of Napoleon with his own eyes, he also claimed to have sailed with Columbus and have seen the assassination of Abraham Lincoln with his own eyes.

This strains credulity. St Germain just happens to walk with Jesus, knows Dante, sailed with Columbus, and personally witnesses the deaths of both Napolean and Lincoln. What are the chances of that? Near zero. I'd be interested in hearing how you became convinced this guy was immortal. That bears on the discussion.





Yeah, I'd say the same thing if that story was told to me. Believe me or not it doesn't really matter, he's long gone from me now, I don't feel as if he'll ever show himself again, at least not to me. The way I knew was that I just knew, he didn't have to say anything, I could immediately sense this human being walking up to me was just... more ancient and wise than he appeared. All instinctively. His language was nearly incomprehensible, it sounded more withered yet epic, and even though my ears could barely understand him, I just knew what he was saying. My brain was just... aware, and told me all he was conveying, in perfect detail, as if he was controlling the scenes.

I dunno, just my story, accept it or not I don't really care, got other things to do then keep trying to hopelessly explain about it, so peace.

Edit: oh but i will say one thing, the stories and memories he told me of Dante has made The Divine Comedy my all time favorite work of literature, I only wished I had actually met the man Dante himself. *Has read TDC thoroughly 4 times, 2 without needing footnotes!! 8D* Incredible epic poem, read it!

Originally posted by Reaching
reply to post by schuyler

 

I didn't suggest that reincarnation and immortality are the same issue. I suggested that since there is evidence of reincarnation and we haven't yet figured out this phenomenon, there are likely other facets of our existence beyond our understanding, including possibly, immortality.

OK. Well, you could just as well say we don't know if there are space aliens, therefore there may be immortals among us. The two aren't related.

Originally posted by Deus Ex Machina 42
The way I knew was that I just knew, he didn't have to say anything, I dunno, just my story, accept it or not I don't really care, got other things to do then keep trying to hopelessly explain about it, so peace.

I guess we can chalk it up to a "personal experience." Thanks so much.

reply to post by schuyler


The two are related because they both pertain to our existence.

Originally posted by Reaching
reply to post by schuyler

 

The two are related because they both pertain to our existence.

That is such a general statement that it is almost meaningless. We could both come up with hundreds of topics that "pertain to our existence" within a few minutes. I make the distinction here because so many people do not and try to throw one of these topics in with the other as if they are the same. Way up at the beginning of this thread we talked about the differences and made the distinction that the two topics do not preclude each other.

The topics of reincarnation, souls, and an afterlife have been discussed ad nauseum on this forum and others. Every religion has something to say on the subject. That's all fine and good. It is a legitimate line of inquiry, THIS thread is about physical immortality. If you attempt to research it you will find there is very little available, particularly compared to the former subjects. Internet searches will turn up the movie and Ben Abba every single time. They usually will not turn up "The Man From Earth," which is what started this inquiry. If you follow the links furnished on the first page of posts I think you would connect to just about all that is available on the Net on this subject.

I'm sorry OP has apparenmtly abandoned this thread. I would have liked to hear more about what he thinks, as well as methuselah, who drops in now and again and obviously has more than a passing interest in the subject.

reply to post by schuyler


Perhaps people abandon threads when others try to shoot down their every thought. I won't be checking back in on this one.

reply to post by jjf3rd77
Hi. Just new member of forum - my first post to this site- and as thought about interesting subject thought to answer shortly to original subject. Why not? Even known new technology promises man to live long, much longer than today. If having some genetic specialities, could easily believe that some of that kind could be really possible and also could explain some strange things in history (not now meaning quite new pic of Nic Cage . Still think that immortal might be too strong word to define nowadays...Quite long living maybe

reply to post by methuselah1937


Hm. Lets assume someone lived for 500years. An easy way to prove his long life would be a picture taken back in 1850 at the beginning of photography supposing he did take such photo and did keep it! But he would have to provide a recent picture too and thus give away his identity. A painting/ drawing would do it too. But what kind of Immortality are we talking about? methuselah1937 You still didnt give your definition of It. Is it timelessness and ageless body only? Or does it include: faster cellular regeneration and/or immunity to most diseases and/or faster adaptation? If, for example, you can regenerate faster (hypothesis) you just could record injurying yourself and its faster healing. I think most people would require physical evidences anyways.

But not me. I think it would in fact be pretty easy to know if someone is Immortal or not (if he is willing to cooperate but do not want to show physical evidences). Lets suppose someone lived for 500 to 1000years. Such a guy would have great experience in life and would know all sort of things, langages, knowledge, culture, survival, important dates, history (memory is like a muscle dont tell me its impossible). Especially, his mind wouldnt be on the same level of normal mortals.

There are a few things you must learn by yourself (but some books from great minds can trigger it too) that will move you to the next level of existence like a mental/mind evolution. This requires time, especially when one is misleaded during childhood (which happen to 100% of the time) and especially today where brainwashing, illusions and silly beliefs (blocks) are everywhere. If you are not predisposed to overcome these mental blocks (not a genius), you will need willpower and TIME. An Immortal has that and i cant imagine he would just stay on the same level as normal people, living a lie endlessly i see no #ing point. Well thats what i would expect from such being. But when i see people around me that stay childish, immature, ignorant even after a whole life, i wonder. Plus humans always want what they dont have. So mortals will seek Immortality and Immortals will seek mortality and normality or am i wrong...?

By the way, methuselah1937, do you never check your private messages?

Yes we are living amongst you.I do know a few others. I don't know of any of us who have started a religion. The rest of what you have to say is mostly true.

reply to post by lonegurkha


Hmmm... interesting.

I would think that being so old, you would have figured out how to spell peace. (Your avitar).
Just an observation.

In a way all life is immortal. Every cell that makes up any organism is split from an older cell and it goes all the way back to the beginning of life on the plaet.

Originally posted by charlyv

Yes we are living amongst you.I do know a few others. I don't know of any of us who have started a religion. The rest of what you have to say is mostly true.

reply to post by lonegurkha

 

Hmmm... interesting.

I would think that being so old, you would have figured out how to spell peace. (Your avitar).
Just an observation.

I believe this fellow likes puns, like the bumper sticker, "Believe in whirrled peas." But the rest of his answer does show the issue that you can't get straight answers. Anyone can be a poser.

reply to post by charlyv


It's a pun. You do know what a pun is don't you? If not u2u me and I'll explain it to you.I have helped many of the ignorant in "my long life".

I would think that you could spell avatar.

reply to post by lonegurkha

Touche , but being a mortal, I plead the lack of time.
So, sorry for being an asshole.... Give me some more to go on. I am listening.