I Am a Straight, Married Christian Male in Support of Gay Marriage

Originally posted by The Old American

Originally posted by TsukiLunar
Marriage is for Squares. It only follows that Squares get married. What is the meaning of marriage? How did it get there? You can't explain that... Look into my eyes and tell me you love me.

Squares? Daddy-O, that word went out with the cat's pajamas! Other than that, I really can't comment on your ramblings.

/TOA

Hey I still say cat's pajamas! And bee's knees!

Originally posted by The Old American
...

The "it's against God" argument is fallacious. In Leviticus (of the Jewish Torah and Christian bible) the laws against homosexuality are thus:

18:22 Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

20:13 If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

These verses, to me, seem to only condemn male homosexuality. If you think about it, the rest of the bible is very specific when it comes to the place of a man and a woman. And don't bring the "man is meant to apply to mankind" thing because then, A) why is the word woman in there, and B) that would just mean we're not supposed to procreate at all.

Of course, I don't believe homosexuality should be condemned at all, I just wanted to point that out because maybe it will plant the seed of doubt in others as well.

ET: I'm not saying you're against homosexuality because, obviously, you're not. It's just a thought that's occurred to me from time to time. Other than all that above...good on you, brother!

reply to post by RedGod


"Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error." -Romans 1:26b-27

Bible condemns lesbianism too.

Originally posted by goodday123
reply to post by The Old American

 

No offence, but if you support homosexuality, then you can not be a true believer in Jesus Christ.
The Bible is as valid as it was then and God's word is unmoving.

The single most ridiculous thing I've ever heard, yet I've heard it so much in my elementary and secondary catholic school education.

The Bible's phrases, definitions, and interpretations have changed so many times; using the Bible as a wedge to "fight against the homos" is retarded to say the most. Gay people exist regardless of faith. The free world isn't about controlling people who sin because of a book written by a group of men over thousands of years before we had scienctific and cultural studies.

I'll go one step further and say that you can't be a true believer in Jesus Christ if you would have people punished for their "sexual immorality sins" in vindication. Unless of course you have no sin yourself, no logs in your eye, no reason to repent before God?

Geeze, even Atheists know this.

The Bible comments are always of the poorest quality, it seems.

Perhaps people should read the book instead of listening to some enthusiastic preacher.

I very much hope that your wives were virgins before you married them.

Otherwise the Bible proves your marriage just as illegitimate as any homosexual marriage.

If they were not, then bring your wives out to be stoned.

It's the Levitican way.

Originally posted by goodday123
reply to post by The Old American

 

No offence, but if you support homosexuality, then you can not be a true believer in Jesus Christ.
The Bible is as valid as it was then and God's word is unmoving.

Right. Like the biblical laws saying that priests shouldn't shave (Leviticus 21:5), that you can't eat pork or shellfish, that you can't wear shirts of two different kinds of material, don't let cattle graze with other kinds of cattle, don't have a variety of crops on the same field. (Leviticus 19:19, I believe), or the laws that support slavery (Leviticus 25:44-45)

There's more:

Any person who curses his mother or father, must be killed. (Leviticus 20:9)
If a man is caught raping a woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father, marry her, and never be allowed to divorce her. (Deuteronomy 22:28-29)

It's okay, I'm not actually expecting you to respond, wouldn't want you to stumble and fall while you backpedal.

Originally posted by IlluminatusOculus33
reply to post by RedGod

 

"Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error." -Romans 1:26b-27

Bible condemns lesbianism too.

Seems only the men were condemned and punished for it. The women appear to be an idle mention.

Originally posted by goodday123
reply to post by TsukiLunar

 

God said homosexuality is a sin. That WILL never change.

Never once have i heard God say that. Have you? Or are just taking the word of a book from antiquity written by people with agendas?

You people are the meaning of the phrase 'The Lord is my Shepard'. Indeed, you guys are doing a great job being sheep.

Originally posted by TsukiLunar

Originally posted by goodday123
reply to post by TsukiLunar

 

God said homosexuality is a sin. That WILL never change.

Never once have i heard God say that. Have you? Or are just taking the word of a book from antiquity written by people with agendas?

You people are the meaning of the phrase 'The Lord is my Shepard'. Indeed, you guys are doing a great job being sheep.

All sex is sin.

But, the only reason that sex between man and woman is accepted, is because it's a natural act that creates the "cure" for the sin.

The cure is the baby boy or girl that results.

Think of the pains the woman has to go through giving birth. Then think of the years of obligation required to feed, clothe, and raise the kid.

The more sex the man and woman have, the more babies they get, and the more busy they become looking after all those kids, until they get so tired with all the chores looking after children, that they have no time nor energy for any more sex.

So children are God's natural medicine for the lustful nature of men and women.

THEREFORE, any kind of sex that prevents the medicine from materializing as a result of the lustful act is defined to be wrong by the bible.

You can't spill your seed on the ground, no man on man sex, no woman on woman sex, no contraceptive sex, etc...the best activity is "abstinence" followed by "hetero sex."

From the very beginning, God told Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit in the midst of the garden. But, Eve saw the fruit hanging there in the middle of Adam's garden and it looked good. And the serpent tempted her, and she did taste, and gave Adam fruit to taste, and suddenly they both realized they were naked. That's the first sin.

The rest is biblical history.

Originally posted by DRAZIW

Originally posted by TsukiLunar

Originally posted by goodday123
reply to post by TsukiLunar

 

God said homosexuality is a sin. That WILL never change.

Never once have i heard God say that. Have you? Or are just taking the word of a book from antiquity written by people with agendas?

You people are the meaning of the phrase 'The Lord is my Shepard'. Indeed, you guys are doing a great job being sheep.

All sex is sin.

But, the only reason that sex between man and woman is accepted, is because it's a natural act that creates the "cure" for the sin.

The cure is the baby boy or girl that results.

Think of the pains the woman has to go through giving birth. Then think of the years of obligation required to feed, clothe, and raise the kid.

The more sex the man and woman have, the more babies they get, and the more busy they become looking after all those kids, until they get so tired with all the chores looking after children, that they have no time nor energy for any more sex.

So children are God's natural medicine for the lustful nature of men and women.

THEREFORE, any kind of sex that prevents the medicine from materializing as a result of the lustful act is defined to be wrong by the bible.

You can't spill your seed on the ground, no man on man sex, no woman on woman sex, no contraceptive sex, etc...the best activity is "abstinence" followed by "hetero sex."

From the very beginning, God told Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit in the midst of the garden. But, Eve saw the fruit hanging there in the middle of Adam's garden and it looked good. And the serpent tempted her, and she did taste, and gave Adam fruit to taste, and suddenly they both realized they were naked. That's the first sin.

The rest is biblical history.

See, that's why you people are sheep. All sex is a sin? Why? Children cure sex? No, you are wrong. Married couples have sex too. Adam and Eve has been proven false. There were no two humans that populated the world. Have you seen what happens to incestuous lineages? Serpent tempted her? Did God create this talking snake or are just once again trusting 2000 yr old writings?

You have no argument.

reply to post by RedGod


Probably because gays were a bigger problem in Roman society than lesbianism but if you want to argue semantics homosexuality by definition includes gays & lesbians:

Homosexuality

2
: erotic activity with another of the same sex

www.merriam-webster.com...

Also God took homosexuality so seriously that he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for it.

Genesis 19:5; 9-13; 22-28
They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”

“Get out of our way,” they replied. “This fellow came here as a foreigner, and now he wants to play the judge! We’ll treat you worse than them.” They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.

But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door. Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door.

The two men said to Lot, “Do you have anyone else here—sons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here, because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the LORD against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it.”

By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens. Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, destroying all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land. But Lot’s wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.

Early the next morning Abraham got up and returned to the place where he had stood before the LORD. He looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, toward all the land of the plain, and he saw dense smoke rising from the land, like smoke from a furnace.

And don't hand me that nonsense about Sodom and Gomorrah being destroyed because they was inhospitable. It even mentioned as quoted above the men of the city wanted to have homosexual sex with the angels that came to Lot's home. Also it was established in New Testament times that the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was homosexuality here is the quotes below to prove it.

if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly -2 Peter 2:6

In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. -Jude 1:7

God doesn't take homosexuality lightly. Those who practice it will be punished by eternal fire unless they repent and turn away from that lifestyle.

reply to post by IlluminatusOculus33


In this case, "semantics" seem pretty important. You can't tell me that because Merriam-Webster defines homosexuality in a way that isn't gender specific, that that's what the authors of the bible, or your god (I assume that you do follow these teachings, please correct me if that is a mistake) meant when they laid down the law only mentioning the sin of man laying with man. You would think a divine being wouldn't leave something like that to the interpretation of us lowly humans after being so terribly specific about his other laws.

Now, I could go in to my personal opinions on things like Sodom and Gomorrah, but it may lead to T&C violations or hurt feelings and accusations of insults.

Namaste.

Originally posted by rumor21

Originally posted by yes4141
reply to post by rumor21

 

No, you know what, I don't think you need to explain anything else, we already realise that you're not quite up to... well anything.

I hope you at least understand what I was saying: your opinion is worth nothing. 0. Absolute # all. The only thing which CAN be valuable is your argument backing up your opinion. You simply posted your emotional response to something without anything else and implied that we should care.


On topic (and a nice segue from the earlier comparison) , interracial relationships were in the past seen as abhorrent and 'wrong' and therefore illegal. Though further back in Ancient Greece homosexual love was seen as the purest and most erudite form of love- so these presumptions of it being 'right' or 'wrong' are of course most likely a cultural/ socially adopted reaction or pretentious righteous indignation rather than the yield of any worthy introspection. Fundamentally, it is not something which will stop therefore making the obvious and most potent question: Is it other people's business?

I must of hit a nerve with you. I'm not saying not to love your brother , just saying parts don't fit and Im sure in ancient greece it was homosexuals who would say it was pure. You must be homosexual, and i'm sorry my comment upset you but my religious view is it's an abomination and maybe you have issues with it.

I did say earlier that regardless of the topic I found your post very irritating. As I said, you merely stated your opinion without any reasoning for it at all: I find that arrogant and immaterial.

Sorry to presume, but I take it you are christian (or at least follow the bible in some way). Do you follow and endorse everything in that book? Do you pass a widow on as property to the brother of her late husband? Do you do things on saturdays? Do you trust the historicity of that text? Do you support Moses commanding an army to rape all young virgin girls of a city and slaughter everybody else?

Citing 'religious reasons' is a bit of a cop out. It is merely stating you have no opinion/ mind capable of introspection of your own- you merely copied what someone else has instructed you to think.

I'm not going to say whether I'm gay or not as I don't want anything I've said to be heard through that 'lens'.

reply to post by TsukiLunar

So... God created imperfect beings and then punishes them for being imperfect? Yah, loving he is.

Well, now we are getting into a theological discussion about free will and God's creation. You wouldn't be the first person to bring it up.

For instance, here is a writer on the subject

IN the introduction I emphasized the importance of our subject and pointed out that the subject of the human will is not a new issue, but, as history teaches us, it has been a heated debate for centuries and was one of the chief issues that divided the Reformed and Roman Catholic theologians.
The question of the freedom of the will, or the power of the human will to obey God and to do that which is spiritually good, is inseparably connected to man’s sin and misery (total inability). It is also necessary to know what ability man lost by the fall and what he possessed after the fall.
An important question, then. is whether man can now, in the same way in which he separated himself from God, return to God by his own strength and ability? Can man, by his own will and in his fallen condition, accept the grace that is offered him by God, and recover himself to the position which has been lost by sin? ~n other words, can the will of man be the cause for men to do good or evil?
The Pelagian reply to this question is that so much grace is given by God and left by nature, to all men, that they can in and of themselves return to God and obey Him. The Holy Scriptures, however, teach us no such thing. Rather, the Scriptures clearly teach that no work acceptable and pleasing to God can be performed by anyone without the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit. Nevertheless, all actions of the will, both good and bad, are performed freely and in no way coerced.

www.reformedreader.org...

Just food for thought

I won't comment on whether or not I support gay marriage as it's a "hot button" issue, however, I do believe that if you say you are a Christian, I have to question the practice of cherry picking the parts of the Bible you want to live by and the ones you think we have "outgrown".

If you believe in God, then you know He is all powerful and would know what the future would bring and the Bible wouldn't contain "dated" material. If that is how you believe, then I suppose others could believe that it's okay to kill and steal because our society is much more progressive than it once was, right? If one person can justify sodomy, they why can't another justify murder?

And for some others, there are many things that occur in nature, that doesn't make them "good". Killing for food, diseases, etc. These are all things designed to rationalize a behavior. Many people turn to atheism to avoid having to be accountable. Nothing has to be rationalized to me, I don't care. Practice sodomy, deny God and the Bible and if it feels good, do it. I'm not the one you need to worry about and answer to.

Originally posted by axslinger
I won't comment on whether or not I support gay marriage as it's a "hot button" issue, however, I do believe that if you say you are a Christian, I have to question the practice of cherry picking the parts of the Bible you want to live by and the ones you think we have "outgrown".

If you believe in God, then you know He is all powerful and would know what the future would bring and the Bible wouldn't contain "dated" material. If that is how you believe, then I suppose others could believe that it's okay to kill and steal because our society is much more progressive than it once was, right? If one person can justify sodomy, they why can't another justify murder?

And for some others, there are many things that occur in nature, that doesn't make them "good". Killing for food, diseases, etc. These are all things designed to rationalize a behavior. Many people turn to atheism to avoid having to be accountable. Nothing has to be rationalized to me, I don't care. Practice sodomy, deny God and the Bible and if it feels good, do it. I'm not the one you need to worry about and answer to.

I agree with the crux of this: if you call yourself a christian, then you must follow ALL parts of the bible equally as they would all be considered the word of God- if not, then do not call yourself a christian and simply believe what you do personally. Similiarly, all contradictions, terrible acts etc. must also be considered equally 'holy' and followed as such. The (what should be) inevitable introspection that comes from these, quite potent, contradictions leaves that individual with a great deal to consider. It also leaves the idea that 'morality' stems from being instructed how to act and then any individual which disobeys being punished eternally (or vicariously) is not necessarily the type of morality which is also considered 'good' (or moral!) itself.

However, your concept of:

Many people turn to atheism to avoid having to be accountable.

hinges on one very important aspect which is that people can choose their beliefs. Do you really think this? People can certainly claim certainly beliefs- they can lie to others, even themselves about it but whether someone genuinely believes something to be true is very rarely genuinely thought to be something an individual can choose.

Originally posted by TsukiLunar

See, that's why you people are sheep. All sex is a sin? Why? Children cure sex? No, you are wrong. Married couples have sex too. Adam and Eve has been proven false. There were no two humans that populated the world. Have you seen what happens to incestuous lineages? Serpent tempted her? Did God create this talking snake or are just once again trusting 2000 yr old writings?

Ah! But, you see, I know the truth. I know the reason why God says it's a sin. The wages of sin is death. And the dead know nothing. Only the living understand.

Man is a spirit, that is attached to physical flesh. The bond that attaches the spirit to the flesh is lust. The "immortal" spirit, becomes the "mortal" flesh, when the spirit has sex with the flesh. Thus the spirit literally "dies" and enters the physical world, because of its lust.

But, the flesh is not alive, it is only "impregnated" by the spirit, and thus appears alive to men.

Because the spirit "impregnates" the flesh, the spirit is termed "male", and the flesh is termed "female", in the coded language of the scriptures.


That's why, for example, the scriptures say...

Simon Peter said to him, "Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of life."
Jesus said, "I myself shall lead her in order to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every woman who will make herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven."
-- The Gospel of Thomas #114
Source: www.gnosis.org...

woman and female here refer to the "flesh", and "lead her in order to make her male" refers to introducing her to her "spirit" which is the part of her that has life.

Jesus said, "This heaven will pass away, and the one above it will pass away. The dead are not alive, and the living will not die. In the days when you consumed what is dead, you made it what is alive. When you come to dwell in the light, what will you do? On the day when you were one you became two. But when you become two, what will you do?"
-- The Gospel of Thomas #11
Source: www.gnosis.org...

The flesh is "dead". It is not alive. Your spirit is alive, and cannot die. When you eat the flesh of animals, you make it part of your flesh, and bring it to life. Yet, it is still "dead". For as soon as your spirit leaves the body at the end of your human life, all that flesh you ate falls to the ground and begins to rot and decay, returning back to the dust.


So long as the soul "lusts" after sex, it lusts for contact with the flesh, and when a man dies, his spirit once again seeks another body of flesh to return to the world of the dead.

But, in this world of the dead, man must kill and slay to eat and keep himself alive. Most people don't even think of it, they just eat beef, and chicken, and ham, and all sorts of flesh, without contemplating the fact that some other living thing had to lose its life in order for they to survive. The slaughter goes on on massive scale every day, to feed the multitudes. Not only is there a massive animal kill, every single day, but men kill men too, to protect the land that is used to feed and sustain this tribe and that tribe, as the tribes of men battle to control their food supply. All that killing, is the continual sin, that is required just because of the original sin, of lust.

It's simple. That's why the Priest is supposed to be Celibate, to stop the original sin, to become holy, so he can understand and lead the followers on the right path.

But, whoso loveth sin, cannot understand the truth.

reply to post by DRAZIW



1.

Ah! But, you see, I know the truth.

Though this was (I desperately hope) tongue in cheek. An individual with a total lack of self doubt would normally be considered a psychopath- I'd say that is multiplied when talking about metaphysics.

2. You have made so many assumptions about the meaning of a body of text that some would say you have a slightly loaded motive prior to reading it.

3. I'm sorry if I seem a little dense, but if the body and soul become one/two, then why are the motives of the body negative whilst the soul is in the body. I understand the point that you explain at the end but you also imply that as the soul enters the flesh it obviously does not know what is going on (we do not know 'the truth') why then is 'the truth' so important? What ascribes 'the truth' with worth? Surely lust is integral to the cycle? Therefore it must surely have some worth?

4. What gives this body of text worth?

Thats it, if you people hate homosexuality so much, why dont you start saying this in church?

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things that are seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father, God of God, Light of Light, true god from true god; begotten, not made, one in being with the Father, through whom all things were made.

Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, he was born of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the living and the dead, *and the gays that will be sent to hell without mercy, no matter what virtues or vices they may have in their mortal life*, whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by The Old American

 

You forgot to say, White, Middle Class, and Employed. I am all of those things as well, and I support Gay Marriage. In fact, I support all legal unions between couples even if they are not homosexual. I think Old Widow Ladies should be able to form legal unions to care for one another and arrange benefits and healthcare.

I believe there was a time when Married, Heterosexual, Child-Rearing couples were preferred by the governments for good reasons, and giving special privilege to those couples made good sense. Those days are gone now, and we should extend the legal conveniences of marriage to any couple that wants it.

yup sounds good.
i am all the above as well....White, MiddleClass, employed, married and a kid at home.

Originally posted by yes4141

3. I'm sorry if I seem a little dense, but if the body and soul become one/two, then why are the motives of the body negative whilst the soul is in the body. I understand the point that you explain at the end but you also imply that as the soul enters the flesh it obviously does not know what is going on (we do not know 'the truth') why then is 'the truth' so important? What ascribes 'the truth' with worth? Surely lust is integral to the cycle? Therefore it must surely have some worth?

4. What gives this body of text worth?

The soul/spirit of the man is capable of good and bad. Even inside the body, it is capable of good. The problem is, it cannot avoid evil, while it is in the flesh. So, men are, generally speaking, both good and evil, but at different times, in different actions. After a man has killed to protect his land, and killed to obtain his food, filled his belly, and is temporarily satisfied, he can engage in some good acts. He can be "charitable" for example, and give some of his food to others, so that they don't have to kill for themselves...etc..The problem is, no matter how good a man is at any time, he must return to evil to sustain the flesh. From time to time he will steal, and cheat, and lie, and deceive, etc..all because the "lust" for the flesh is the most important thing for him, and like any "drug addict", people do whatever it takes to get their periodic fix.

Men are creatures of habit. People simply repeat their actions over and over again, because the hunger rises again and again after every temporary meal. The problem is that the spirit "forgets" when it enters the flesh.

Lust does have some merit. It causes suffering. Because of suffering, man naturally seeks a "solution". In searching for solution to the suffering, man learns about himself and his environment, and gains "knowledge".

This is why the book of genesis calls the forbidden fruit the fruit of "the tree of knowledge".

Eventually, as man gets more knowledge, he becomes smarter and more intelligent, and he begins to understand his condition, and realizes what the words in the bible mean.

You need a lot of sex to get really smart.

But, if you have sex without suffering, then you don't get smart, instead you only become blind and dumb.

Wnen a doctor provides contraceptives, or abortions, etc..what he does is effectively "absolve" the sinner from his sin. That would be ok, if the sinner was very smart already, and so understood the nature of his sin, and undertook the decision to "repent". All repent means, is to give up the habit of sin. But, if after receiving "absolution" from a doctor, the sinner simply returns to the same old habitual behavior again, then he has obviously learnt nothing, and he simply "increases his hunger" for the lust.

What happens when the lust is allowed to increase unchecked? First the spirit lusts after the flesh. That causes the fall of man, into the physical world from the eternal spirit realm. Then man lusts after woman, again man falls another step. Then, man lusts after man, again he falls down some more. Then, man lusts after the animals, the sheep, the cows, the fowl. He falls further. Then, man is no longer content to just taste the flesh of others with his lower tongue, he desires to "eat the flesh of men", and becomes a cannibal. Human cannibalism is the final stage in the fall, in the physical world, just like the recent German cannibal

German cannibal tells of fantasy

A man accused of killing, dissecting and eating another man has gone on trial in central Germany.


Source: news.bbc.co.uk...

After cannibalism, the very last state of the sinner is eternal damnation. Since men are creatures of habit, the sinner needs to periodically satisfy his lust. However, the time comes when all flesh is removed from the world. And those whose "habit" is lusting after flesh, find themselves in a state where it cannot even be temporarily fulfilled. They can find no flesh anymore to satisfy the craving. But, they continue to crave, and crave, and crave, perpetually. The fire within them is burning them up. And there's no longer any means to get that temporary relief. So, they burn in fire for all eternity.That state is called hell.