Why are Americans so Vengeful?

ahh I remember back in the day when I was young like the OP. i remember the feeling to look on the world with young naive eyes. So lets break this down, Americans are vengeful because we execute criminals. So you are saying that someone that raped 10 or 15 8 year old children deserves to continue their life? How about the person that went into a corner store and shot the place up for a 40oz malt liqour and killed a 22 year old single mother? Yeah, scum like that deserve what they get, sorry. What would your alternative be? To put them into group therapy and let them discuss the feelings that caused them to kill and rape? What do you suggest we do with people that have no regard for human life and commit these atrocities?

We are allowed to have guns to protect ourselves, our families, our friends and our neighbors as well are our property from people like I mentioned above. I do know a single person that is a gun owner that has these hollywood fantasies you speak of. All the gun owners I know, including myself, hope and pray the day never comes when a firearm has to be used in defense of something. I do not for the lief of me understand why people are so afraid of guns. In all my years of gun ownership and my family's gun ownership I have never once heard about a gun jumping up and killing someone all on its own. Sorry it just doesn't happen. The cleaning accidents you hear about are because the idiot forget to check to see if it was loaded, so it their own fault. As to the comment earlier on in this thread that guns do not prevent crime......

FACT: Guns prevent an estimated 2.5 million crimes a year, or 6,849 per day.

* Gary Kleck, Criminologist, Florida State Univ.

Often the gun is never fired and no blood (including the criminals) is shed.

www.gunblast.com...

That should be a suitable source, if not I will find another, however the source qouted earlier was a mediamatters article, so they are equally biased.

I do agree however that we should not have our military engaged the world over and acting as the world's police force. That being said, We should protect our interests, our people and our security.

Originally posted by m1991You're right, they are. The thing is guns are more lethal than knives or most other weapons, so it's logical that the more of them that are around, the more murder there will be.

*sigh* Look at the crime rate in Switzerland:

Police statistics for the year 2006[13] records 34 killings or attempted killings involving firearms, compared to 69 cases involving bladed weapons and 16 cases of unarmed assault. Cases of assault resulting in bodily harm numbered 89 (firearms) and 526 (bladed weapons). As of 2007, Switzerland had a population of about 7,600,000. This would put the rate of killings or attempted killings with firearms at about one for every quarter million residents yearly. This represents a decline of aggravated assaults involving firearms since the early 1990s. The majority of gun crimes involving domestic violence are perpetrated with army ordnance weapons, while the majority of gun crime outside the domestic sphere involves illegally held firearms.[14]

Emphasis mine.Wiki Now, the Swiss do have some gun laws, but they carry more guns per person (including semiautomatics) than almost any given city in the US. (Most registered gun owners are rural in the US.) Their death by guns is lower than ours in cities so no, it is not logical for there to be more gun deaths when there is more openly known guns. There is more death by guns when criminals have more illegal guns than the rest of the civil population has registered guns. Now, compare that to England's deaths by guns each year, where under 7 people per 100 legally have guns:

The number of homicides per year committed with firearms has remained between a range of 49 and 97 in the 8 years to 2006. There were 2 fatal shootings of police officers in England and Wales in this period and 107 non-fatal shootings - an average of 9.7 per year over the same period.[37]
By way of international comparison, in 2004 the police in the United States reported 9,326 gun homicides.[38] The overall homicide rates per 100,000 (regardless of weapon type) reported by the United Nations for 1999 were 4.55 for the U.S. and 1.45 in England and Wales.[1] The homicide rate in England and Wales at the end of the 1990s was below the EU average, but the rates in Northern Ireland and Scotland were above the EU average.[39]

While the number of crimes involving firearms in England and Wales increased from 13,874 in 1998/99 to 24,070 in 2002/03, they remained relatively static at 24,094 in 2003/04, and have since fallen to 21,521 in 2005/06. The latter includes 3,275 crimes involving imitation firearms and 10,437 involving air weapons, compared to 566 and 8,665 respectively in 1998/99.[40] Only those "firearms" positively identified as being imitations or air weapons (e.g., by being recovered by the police or by being fired) are classed as such, so the actual numbers are likely to be significantly higher. In 2005/06, 8,978 of the total of 21,521 firearms crimes (42%) were for criminal damage.[40]

Compared with the United States of America, the United Kingdom has a slightly higher total crime rate per capita of approximately 85 per 1000 people, while in the USA it is approximately 80.[41]

WikiNote that with gun laws in place death by guns is under 7% of all homicides. Less than 7% owns guns, less than 7% are killed by guns. Pretty simple. And England's crime rate is higher than ours by about 5%.

To have guns or not have guns? People still die because you don't need a gun to kill.

Originally posted by pikestaff

In the first full year after Australia banned guns, the gun crime rate went up 44% does not seem like a drop to me,
but then again, perhaps where I got my figures from was biased, I don't know for sure.

Either biased or it could have been perhaps for a brief time criminals did take advantage of it, but the long term effect is that Australia simply has fewer guns than it used to and also less gun killing.

Originally posted by CynicalDrivel
*sigh* Look at the crime rate in Switzerland:

Compared with the United States of America, the United Kingdom has a slightly higher total crime rate per capita of approximately 85 per 1000 people, while in the USA it is approximately 80. Note that with gun laws in place death by guns is under 7% of all homicides. Less than 7% owns guns, less than 7% are killed by guns. Pretty simple. And England's crime rate is higher than ours by about 5%.

To have guns or not have guns? People still die because you don't need a gun to kill.

You're taking a few things out of context there. First of all, Swiss don't so much carry guns for self defense or shooting intruders as they do to protect their neutrality. They don't have a culture (at least I don't think) of jerking off to their guns like we do.

Additionally, the reason Switzerland has a low crime rate is because it's a wealthy, functional and equal society. Its neighbors have similar crime rates.

And when you say England's crime rate is higher by 5%, that's misleading because you're referring to the ENTIRE crime rate. What is important in this discussion is the violent crime rate.

Originally posted by m1991

Originally posted by MRSeuphoric1
reply to post by m1991

 

It's not just Americans, Its preprogrammed in us to be greedy, selfish and only look out for number one. Americans just do it more openly. But thats what you get from being the "Free"est Country in the world, right?

This is more a rant really and you know the old saying, if you don't like it you can leave

edit on 2-9-2011 by MRSeuphoric1 because: (no reason given)

See that's the lie people believe. That humans are inherently evil. I don't think that's true. And how the hell are we the freest country in the world? You can't even open a lemonade stand in this country without a stack of paperwork for crying out loud.

And that old saying is one of the most obnoxious sayings there is and every time it is uttered from someone's lips, it doesn't lose any of its original obnoxiousness. I would love to leave the United States, except I have family here and also it's extremely difficult for me to even visit other countries because of the difficulty in getting a passport.

It is in the human genome to be greedy. But I also think that there is allot of love going around on this planet. There are allot of loving/caring humans and when and where one least expect it, love is shown.

But about the lemonade stand.... Human bureaucracy is turning in to a Vogon standard.

That is destroying the creativity people have to offer on the job market. One should be able to start a company, follow ones dreams and contribute to society without having to worry about bureaucracy. And without having to give most of the hard earned money away.
Instead of the government forcing people to "give away" their money, it should be allowed to keep everything and people should instead feel the pleasure of helping others if they can.
But it has to be a free choice, made out of love and not forced upon anyone.
The question is, would it be done?

If someone is rich and want to help others, good! do it. The good Kharma is on the way for that person.
If someone is rich and do not want to help others and keep everything for him/her self, well go ahead then, that person have probably worked hard for the money and earned it.
But perhaps there will come a point in that persons own life when help is needed, and not given, because that person does not have any friends to get help from. A situation like that can make a person think twice.

Personally I think there is allot of love in the U.S.

reply to post by m1991


us citizen can't discern between
hollywood and reality or good and evil
everything is dollar
john wayne

Any sources backing that Australians crime rate has indeed gone down? All I can seem to find states otherwise.

AUSTRALIA: MORE VIOLENT CRIME DESPITE GUN BAN

It is a common fantasy that gun bans make society safer. In 2002 -- five years after enacting its gun ban -- the Australian Bureau of Criminology acknowledged there is no correlation between gun control and the use of firearms in violent crime. In fact, the percent of murders committed with a firearm was the highest it had ever been in 2006 (16.3 percent), says the D.C. Examiner.

Even Australia's Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research acknowledges that the gun ban had no significant impact on the amount of gun-involved crime:

In 2006, assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.
Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent.
Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent.

Moreover, Australia and the United States -- where no gun-ban exists -- both experienced similar decreases in murder rates:

Between 1995 and 2007, Australia saw a 31.9 percent decrease; without a gun ban, America's rate dropped 31.7 percent.
During the same time period, all other violent crime indices increased in Australia: assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.
Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent.
Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent.
At the same time, U.S. violent crime decreased 31.8 percent: rape dropped 19.2 percent; robbery decreased 33.2 percent; aggravated assault dropped 32.2 percent.
Australian women are now raped over three times as often as American women.

While this doesn't prove that more guns would impact crime rates, it does prove that gun control is a flawed policy. Furthermore, this highlights the most important point: gun banners promote failed policy regardless of the consequences to the people who must live with them, says the Examiner.

Source: Howard Nemerov, "Australia experiencing more violent crime despite gun ban," D.C. Examiner, April 8, 2009.

reply to post by m1991

Let me guess,your on public assistance and some gun toten death penalty supporten person looked at you wrong.NO? Just another liberal with an opinion on why to hate America,..........sad........you are a fool if you think America is the only country that has people that feel the way you discribe us.
The people in these other countrys that you tote are just more beaten down and over run with imigration,they have no true culture left and the ones that do are out numbered and the liberal and progressives have made so many laws that the ones that would speek out are to affarid.

Originally posted by SM2
ahh I remember back in the day when I was young like the OP. i remember the feeling to look on the world with young naive eyes. So lets break this down, Americans are vengeful because we execute criminals. So you are saying that someone that raped 10 or 15 8 year old children deserves to continue their life? How about the person that went into a corner store and shot the place up for a 40oz malt liqour and killed a 22 year old single mother? Yeah, scum like that deserve what they get, sorry. What would your alternative be? To put them into group therapy and let them discuss the feelings that caused them to kill and rape? What do you suggest we do with people that have no regard for human life and commit these atrocities?

I think we should put them in PRISON or a MENTAL HOSPITAL. This is 2011, we do not STONE PEOPLE ANYMORE. I'm sorry if the idea puts a smile on your face on a lump in your pants, but civilized people do not do that. Personally I think it's pathetic how the death penalty fans appeal to emotion (since there's no logic in the matter to appeal to) by bringing up the idea of women and children being hurt, of course anyone, man, woman, or child, who is hurt it's very very sad, but it's insulting to say that we would be honoring their pain/memory/etc by acting monstrous in return to the person who hurt them.

Oh yeah and there's no way I'm gonna trust a figure from a site called Gunblast.com not to be taken horribly out of context or completely fabricated.

America has helped the world more than ne1 else. We practically hand out money to nations who need it. We're the worlds protector of freedom and it's a thankless job.

That's why we're vengeful. Maybe if the rest of the world started caring more...

And you know you're just 21. This country gave you life and you have a lot to learn about that.

reply to post by LiberalSceptic


You pretty much wrote what I was thinking

It's very hard to get a passport in the UK now, you have to go for an interview where they ask you questions, you can't just send off for one like the old days.

America is not the most vengeful, or violent peoples in the world by a long shot.

Originally posted by rigel4
sooner or later you Americans are going to start WWIII. someone will stand up to you.

Beg to differ. No one will stand up to the US. But the US will destroy itself, which is much more preferable to another country replacing the US.

If the recent history is any indication, when a grotesque pyschopathic militarist power loses a war for supremacy, it is almost always to an even more grotesque psychopathic militarist power. However despicable European powers were/are none of them were actually deluded enough to think that the nations which they were pillaging should be "grateful" to them, something that most Americans seem to believe in. Cannot even begin to imagine what kind of creatures it would take to militarily defeat these deluded psychopaths.

But fortunately that is not necessary. No one particular country need actually stand up to or defeat the US. It will self-destruct leaving an invaluable lesson for the rest of the world, however much military strength they build, however deluded they are about their own "good nature" while destroying others, psychopaths will eventually self-destruct. A very important lesson indeed.

reply to post by Stormdancer777


England

So you would add these people are just allowed to live their lives out in an institution somewhere after they takes the lives of innocent people? In case you have not heard, that system does not work, how many "rehabilitated violent offenders" are repeat offenders? I am sorry I do not fit in your box, it does not make me happy or aroused as you insinuate to have a criminal executed, it is a sad thing that some people insist on committing these acts.

You criticize a figure from a site called gunblast yet you endorse a an article from mediamatters? really? wow. Mediamatters is nothing but a George Soros funded propaganda machine. In case you have not noticed there is a foot note on that quote as to where it came from. It was not taken out of context, it just does not fit your opinion, so you conveniently throw it out. Have to hate it when these pesky facts interfere with your holier than thou stance.

It is sad that we live in a world where this is actually an issue, I do agree, I wish there was no violence, however, we do, so I chose to not become a statistic or allow my loved ones, or even a complete stranger in my presence to become the headline in tonight's local news. You can bury your head in the sand all you want and cling to the bleeding heart liberal ideology. I will chose to remain believing in personal responsibility and justice for those that can no longer obtain it and to protect those that rely on me and those that cannot protect themselves.

Originally posted by jonnywhite
America has helped the world more than ne1 else. We practically hand out money to nations who need it. We're the worlds protector of freedom and it's a thankless job.

When you say "helped", what you actually mean is you have overthrown more governments that looked after their people and told the US to shaft itself, and replaced them with dictatorships who enslave their populations, just so you can have a place to park your planes and a free supply of oil. You have done that more than anyone else.

Originally posted by jonnywhite

That's why we're vengeful. Maybe if the rest of the world started caring more...

...about oil and extracting minerals from countries just so your inept population can run their big cars on an endless supply of cheap gas and have a continuous supply of heroin to fuel hollywood/your out of control pharmaceutical culture at the expense of the populations you decimate through illegal wars, occupations and government overthrows.

Originally posted by jonnywhite
And you know you're just 21. This country gave you life and you have a lot to learn about that.

edit on 3-9-2011 by jonnywhite because: (no reason given)

Same could be said about you son.

Originally posted by CherryV
reply to post by LiberalSceptic

 

You pretty much wrote what I was thinking

It's very hard to get a passport in the UK now, you have to go for an interview where they ask you questions, you can't just send off for one like the old days.

America is not the most vengeful, or violent peoples in the world by a long shot.

edit on 3-9-2011 by CherryV because: (no reason given)

When humans are free, they feel at ease.
Someone who feel at ease usually show love. Simply because that person is happy.

Humans are not really free anywhere in the world today. Everyone are bound by the shackles of bureaucracy.
Ergo, it is tough for the love to shine through. That does not mean love does not exist.

The U.S. do some crazy things, and the U.S. do ALLOT of good things.

reply to post by Swanfilters


Actually I think he was thinking more along the lines of this.

Main articles: United States military aid, United States Foreign Military Financing, and Foreign Military Sales

The U.S. provides military aid through many different channels. Counting the items that appear in the budget as 'Foreign Military Financing' and 'Plan Colombia', the U.S. spent approximately $4.5 billion in military aid in 2001, of which $2 billion went to Israel, $1.3 billion went to Egypt, and $1 billion went to Colombia.[52] Since 9/11, Pakistan has received approximately $11.5 billion in direct military aid.[53]

As of 2004, according to Fox News, the U.S. had more than 700 military bases in 130 different countries.[54]

Estimated US foreign military financing and aid by recipient for 2010:
Recipient Military aid (USD Billions)
Iraq 6.50
Afghanistan 5.60[55]
Israel 2.75[17]
Egypt 1.75[18]
Pakistan 1.60[56]
Colombia .834[57]
Jordan .300[58]
Palestine .100[18]
Yemen .070

And the private donations the greedy Americans donated to things like Hadi, the Asian tsunami ect.

www.usatoday.com...

Pretty much sums up how evil the American people are.

reply to post by m1991


as far as capital punishment. I think it's justified in certain cases that are slam dunk's, but if there's any lingering doubt even if not reasonable.., the jury almost ALWAYS opts for a life sentence so I don't see it as a HUGE problem. Sure no Death Penalty would be better, cause it's too good for most ofr these criminals. Life in jail is a much worse punishment.Anyway most people who get the Death Penalty on average hang around on Death Row for decades sucking the tax=payers moneys to take care of them.

Also the 2nd amendment is one of if not the greatest right we have, and it has nothing to do with people wanting to be like hollywood stars, because I think the Constitution was written before "Action movies" became popular. It has to do with people being able to protect thier families and property, and also to keep the "military state" in check.

The biggesy problem with the 2nd amendment is that people don't use it! They don't go about the right way of obtaiing a gun legally, they don't take classes on gun safety ect, ect.

In the Grandpa with Shotgun vs. knife story, you said well what if the criminal had the gun and Gramps had a knife. Well that's gramps' fault. He should have had a firearm to protect himself, his property and his family. Shotgun vs. Shotgun..., I bet the criminal flees.

and saying school shooting is an Epidemic? Are you serious? Do you know what an epidemic is?

You exagerate way too much in your posts for me too take you seriously. Especially saying an underaged kid can walk into a gun shop and by a firearm with a fake ID and have it within an hour. Try this, kid goes into gun shop with fake ID, and when filling out pages of paperwork the Shop owner runs his name and SS# and bingo the police are at the gunshop before the kid is done with his paperwork.

Oh and I liked the part where you said you'd move out of America, but othr countries won't let you work thier? hmm what do you do for a living that only America allows you to do, I wonder? Yet your still ungrateful for your right to be able to work here.

I won't call you ignorant, just naiive, since judging by your screename your 20yrs old? If not, hmm I dunno what other excuse to make for your post

I dug this up just for you..., I really but I love the line, it NEVER gets old imo. Plus this being based on a true story and the main character grew up about a half mile from me it hits that much closer to home.

skip to 10:15 - 10:21 for pure awesomeness

Originally posted by discharged77
I think that we should actually kill the scum on death row the day after they are convicted. It would save the hard working tax payer some hard earned dough. But the Marxist lawyers see a way in to make a dollar and get their name in the paper by helping this garbage escape whats coming to them. Bleeding heart liberals would feel differently if it was their loved one who was murdered in cold blood.

A lot of the conservative Christians (you know, conservatives, Moral Majority, et. al.) actually are against killing even these. Hence the reason why a local Church of Christ reached out to Jeffery Dahmer and pleaded for the courts to withhold his death penalty. Hell, I'm far more conservative than most the people on this site, and I'm not strictly for the death penalty.

Originally posted by StratosFearLook it up yourself, Africans sold there own into slavery!

A sidenote: the anti-loitering laws in England at the time of the slave trade gave slavers the right to grab anyone who was begging and force them to work for merely food and clothing. Little orphans were plucked off the streets, drunks were clubbed like seals, simply Whites sold Whites into slavery on the Caribbean plantations. But since there was an organized government that was doing this, this was shut down in an organized manner--something that never happened in Africa.

Originally posted by Qemyst
Guns ABSOLUTELY can kill people. So do knives. So do rocks, pieces of wood, swords, a video game controller, a fork, a sharpened spoon, a high heel shoe, a regular shoe, bombs, a rope, a bike chain, a pipe, a broken beer bottle, a sharp piece of metal, a pencil, a pen, cars...

I feel that all of the above things should have MUCH stricter rules on them. Many of the items can be used to bludgeon someone to death, or inflict lethal stab wounds, or blow someone up... I'm sure i missed some things. Oh yeah, wrenches, screwdrivers, a saw... uhh... Probably still missing some things.

Cheers

You forgot my favorite: pillows.

Originally posted by m1991Civilized societies do not put people to death. It is unnecessary. Believe me, if someone is a serial killer, no parole board is going to let them free.

Ted Bundy, to name 1. There are several serial killers that have been paroled or set free in their mother country in "civilized societies".Cracked 5

Originally posted by radosta I say CHUTE 'EM.

Take it from a local, it's Choot 'um or Choot 'em.

Originally posted by type0civWell said..Guns are not the only common denominator in school shootings..I believe the SSRI class anti-depressants are also usually present....but those are use to help not hurt.

Actually, many anti-depressants and anti-psychotics, when given to a not fully developed brain (like teenagers have), causes worse problems than it is trying to prevent.

Originally posted by m1991

i had no idea about that actually. i just chose m1991 because my name starts with M and 1991 is a palindrome and a (kind of) recent year.

This is why you look up a name before you use it. One of my old names gives me some interesting problems, due to my not looking things up, as well.

Originally posted by m1991You're comparing America to societies thousands of years old and also to dictatorships in second and third world countries. My premise was that America is far more vengeful and militaristic than other modern first world countries.

It's not about living in past comparisons, although plenty are making it seem that way. It's about learning from history so we don't repeat the same mistakes.

Originally posted by radosta
Tell you what, you develop and market a video game about peace. Points for every hug. You may even get government subsidies for it.
You won't sell a single game, mind you.
Why? Because the point is entertainment. No conflict = boredom. And that sort of sums it up there.

Harvest Moon.

Originally posted by petrus4
I think the way Americans live with themselves while holding this attitude, is also via the degree of mental externalisation/otherisation that goes on. In other words, if a person gets locked up and the key thrown away, that's perfectly fine, just as long as it's someone else. It's even better if you can play spectator and feel morally superior to the criminality of the poor slob as he gets dragged off to solitary.

It goes further than that. When your primary goals are materialistic, you don't have your mind set on other people's needs. We're all buy, buy, buy, not help, help, help.

reply to post by m1991



To the OP:...Spend a weekend at my house in Vallejo and you'll see why we need guns..Because if we didn't have them the Home Invasion rate here would be unbelievably worse. We just had some 1 try and come in our backdoor this week while running from the police and what do you think made him realize this isn't a place to hold out an possibly take Hostages???Hint: it wasn't a smile and a welcoming gesture.....Look what happened when Australia took guns from the citizens, The Criminals still had them and home invasion/robbery went through the roof..look it up...As far as war goes most Americans don't want war but we have no say in what our government does. Example: did we have the ability to vote on getting involved in any of these wars???Answer: Nope!..It's not that we are overly Vengeful it's that we know a good portion of people in the world want to take whats ours an the only way to stop that is EQUAL FORCE..Sorta Like Cold War Mutual Destruction...Also ALL OF AMERICA IS NOT FIRST WORLD...I have been to third world places in Latin America and there is plenty of places in the U.S. that are no Better.