Seawolf vs Virginia class Submarine

reply to post by Anonymous ATS


Being a previous sonar chief on a particular modified seawolf-class, I can vouch whole-heartedly for the monumental impact of a grade-A military education and real-world training that tests both machinery and mettle. You aren't anything until you prove you are. A crew can make a humble piece of equipment a lethal and quiet(er) weapon, much in the same way as an engineering masterpiece can be squanderd by the ignorant. The reality is that some crews fight better than others. Some simply have more opportunities to grow those muscles and learn from their mistakes. This is why it is so vital that a crew bond with their ship and nurture the synergy between man and object. To learn how to the anticipate the capacity and needs of your equipment, your environment and the enormous space around you are the ingredients of survival at war under the sea. No matter of torpedo tubes,sonar accuracy or fiber optics can deny the lethality of such superior training and experience.

So in all, you really have two actual comparisons to make:

1. From an engineering, tactical capability, and sheer stealth perspective...which is superior?

2. In a real-world scenario in a randomized location, which boat would survive a conflict?

Both are tough to answer without severe violation of so many pieces of paper I've seen that there is no reason to discuss the matter further from my own words.

However...it is an interesting thought...

Hey Chief,

First off I want to thank you for your years of service.

Agree..it is crew training. I've been on boats in the yards and watched crews as they train and qualify. Some of them worry me. Some of them you know after awhile for what to look.
Some crews looked very good to me.

This was driven home to me years ago..after working LA class boats and the last of the Sturgeons built here. I was farmed out to the CGN Cruisers..to work the weekend. They needed some extra people for certain jobs and we were asked on the Sub piers to help out if we wanted some overtime.

What became immediately clear to me when coming aboard the CGN was the caliber of the crews...the enlisted men...particularly the lower ranks. The difference in IQ level was immediately apparent to me. You just know these sailors..most of them would not make it on a Submarine. They would not cut it and be quickly weeded out.

I remember one boat we built...what astonished me was when taking on stores in the yard...they just kept taking on more and more. I'd never seen a boat take on that much stuff. They began to put in on the floors around the galley...canned goods..alot of them. Then they put a sheet of plywood over it...and loaded more. THen another sheet of plywood. and some more.

It actually got hazardous to your back carrying a heavy tool bag through there and hunching over to get past this stack of goods.

It was a couple of days before the light bulb came on in my head!! Wow!! Are these guys that good..that they are going out to sea from shortly after the yards?? Are they ready ..are the crew that qualed..ready???

I had never seen so many stores brought on a boat. At least not to the point of blocking up the passageways in that manner. That was the stuff you only read about in books. I was impressed. Usally they go over to Norfolk and sit awhile before going out to sea.

It was obvious that they had enough stores to go out to sea...for awhile. We were never told anything about any operation and this is to be expected but it was unusual in the yards to see that many stores loaded and done in that manner. It was immediately obvious that they would have to eat their way out of that pile of canned stores. Nonetheless..I was impressed to see this extent of "managed chaos"..first hand ..up front..raw...unfiltered.

I have also worked Nimitz class carriers. Occasionally you will see a fellow working on the carriers who has his Dolphins. This stands out immediately to me as to what is means and implies.

I learned alot working Submarines in the yards..more than that for which I had bargained...or was prepared. But I would not trade it..for working in such tight spaces prepared me to handle alot of tasks out here in the world for which many would find difficult or even impossible.

One of the facets which I learned was how to modify certain tools to work and fit in very very tight spaces. This is what you do to get certain jobs completed and to specifications.
I am ever grateful to the olde timers , may they rest in peace, for teaching me this skill.

This is why it is so vital that a crew bond with their ship and nurture the synergy between man and object.

I like the way you said that Chief...spot on and in the X ring.

Thanks again for your service to this country and people.

Orangetom

I thought , after reviewing this thread, I would add this post to give some perspective in time to the readers who do not have this kind of experience in which to guage the state of the art in submarine development other than what they read on line and in books/photos.


Many years ago I took a woman and her children up to Baltimore, Md to visit the Aquarium down on the waterfront.

I was not particularly keen on going but endured as best I could.

What I found when I got there was that they had an olde diesel boat parked in the harbor as a museum piece for public viewing.

This awoke my enthusiasm quickly..I had to get aboard to see how much the state of the art had changed over the years. Could I recognize certain systems..colour coding of the valve operating handles etc etc.

I went down the hatch and as expected It was close confines. Not all that much different than todays boats. They may be bigger across the hulls..but they just pack more gear into them. They are still today..very cramped..it has not changed in this arena. I proceeded to the stern of the boat. This olde class of boat was fitted with aft firing torpedo tubes. What was immediately obvious was that the torpedos were much smaller diameter in those days and on those boats. They were the 19 inch diameter torpedos. I recognized back there the manual scale for indicating how many degrees the aft planes were ..for it went from 0 degrees ..to one side rise..then from 0 degrees to dive the other. It is the same on the rudder...0 degrees...this has not changed...only the materials out of which the scale is made was different. This one was solid brass.
Valve colour coding was the same..yellow for oil systems...green for sea water..blue for fresh water.

There were red tags hanging...just like in the active navy. Red Danger tags...you dont mess with these valves and operators..period.

There were also certain areas of the boat which you could not venture...closed off. I expect you could not go there without proper ventillation. Probably a good thing too.

Crews accomodations were even more sparse than today. Galley was the biggest compartment...roomier.. outside of the main torpedo room. It still is.

This boat had the periscope one level above the control room. An unusual set up compared to todays boats...but this was olde school.

It was an interesting tour for sure...and I am glad I took it. I have always wanted to go on one of those old fleet boats.



On the other hand..I also had the opportunity to go to Charleston, South Carolina and see the CSS Hunley sitting in the tank undergoing treatment.

My first reaction to the CSS Hunley laying there in the tank was...

"HOLY COW....!!!! They went out in that!!!!!!"

"You've got to be kidding me Dude..!!!"

While regaining my composure ..it was only silence.

I quickly came to the conclusion ..that you have to have some big ones hanging to go out in that!! And I mean big ones!!

Pardon the crudity but I was astonished...agast...dumbfounded.

I reckon it just looked so pioneering and romantic in the books.

But this was bare bones..no..it was more primitive than bare bones ...if that is possible.

I saw the gold coin on display which was found in the hull..the lucky piece for one of the crew. It is on display under a bright light in plexiglass. This brings home starkly to one that this hull was for so many years also a gravesite.


One thing became clear quickly...and obviously though we dont often think of it today ...it is mostly overlooked as a perspective on history.

And that was that the average stature of an American back then was not large. We take our height and weight so for granted today ..but it became clear by the hull diameter that these people operating it were not all that big in stature.

When you see surviving uniforms and clothes of this period..most people were not that large. They would be the size of medium to small teenagers today. Any coroner who has examined olde graves can confirm that.


Now there were some large people about back then..but this was the exception ...these large people back then would be average size if they lived today...but back then they were large for the times.

But ..nonetheless this trip too was an eye opener to realize what is not in the history books per se. But when you see it with your own eyeballs ..it becomes clear.

My work on 637 class boats, 688s, the olde boomers and also today Virginia class boats..gave me perspective on what is the state of the art..and here...this took me back in time to close to the beginning of submarines. It was worth it ..even the initial shock.
Hope this helps some of you in some manner,

Orangetom