Seawolf vs Virginia class Submarine

Ahhh..now that is better. Good to see this thread pick back up again.

some good comments on here again.

While I will not go into comments or details on how this is done...I have been behind the torpedo doors on both Virginias and 688 class boats in what is called the free flood areas....the mechanical side. I have also worked the Hydraulic systems for both. I speak also of both inside and around the tubes.... inside the pressure hulls. Flood and drain systems both.
I should probably have worded this better myself...You would have to be practically up on the backsides of these boats to hear anything. Including flooding the tubes. From a distance one would be hard pressed to hear anything.
The pattern of which Harlequin speaks of the Spearfish class boats also holds true for the Yank boats. Above a certain speed threshold noise is more easily generated. The technological challange has always been to move this threshold up the scales. This work continues today.

Since there is an article on the web which can be found under the name Cutthroat LSV or Large Scale Vehicle.I will go ahead and post this. Cutthroat is a native species of trout out in the western states. I got to see this hull shape out back of one of the sheds at night before it was shipped out west to the lakes. I was at first astonished and immediately swung my bicycle around for a closer look. Inside the tanks and free flood area she was built very similar to an actual submarine. It was then that I realized this was a test bed ,a scale model, for future designs and modifications. Albet ..a very expensive test bed but this is the extent to which one goes to accomplish the desired goals if one can in fact afford such.

Link here. www.chinfo.navy.mil...

Tonka,
You are again correct..in that sonar and its modern capabilities are one of the most closely guarded secrets. And so it is in this case. I wont go into details again on how I know but suffice it to say they have not scrimped on the sonar on the Virginias. This is one of the reasons for the costs soaring on these boats in addition to the inflation of our money supply here...more accurately refered to as depreciation.

The huge cost areas on a nuclear type boat are the nuclear plant itself...and the electronics which go into these modern boats. Not so much the hull materials...though they are not inexpensive themselves. The nuclear plant itself is the single biggest cost item on such a boat...or even a surface ship.

There are some significant changes coming in the Virginia class boats, but this is true of any class. The last of the boats in a series are often different in key areas than are the first ones built as these changes are incorporated in the yards before delivery. Virginia was designed to be more accessable to changes than were the 688 class. Computer aided designs have made possible quantum leaps in such construction or modifications. For Virginias this change will be radical as compared to the 688 class boats.
The one factor I can predict which will not change is the cost spiral. This will continue unabated.

Thanks,
Orangetom

spearfish is a pump jet torpedo used by teh Royal Navy - and when it enetered service there was nothing else like it in the world in service



modern attack boats arn`t called `holes in teh water` for nothing - IIRC something like 15 knots (maybe 20) they are near invisible

Originally posted by Kim78
Hi guys!
My first post here...so be nice to me =)

Submarines are a great interest of mine and therefore I have this question for you.

Which is the better sub...Seawolf or Virginia? And what do you think the max deapth and max speed are?

The way I see it, Seawolf was very expensive and after Soviet went belly up there was no need for such a peach of weapon.
The Virginia Class was built as a more Littoral combat sub, and as a more budget version. But the Virgina as at least 10 years newer...so what do you think?

I'm guessing the speed is around 42-45 knots...but I have no idea of deapth.

[edit on 21-8-2004 by Kim78]

As a former submariner familiar with both i can neither confirm nor deny any of your guesses ha ha.. but i will say that Virginia class has the more up to date tecno.. thats not always what matters. its tactics and education. you can put a awesome crew in a garbage scow let them clean it up and because of the crew it can kick some.. in the cold war the soviets played with some advanced boats, it was the usa education on tactics and the environment that put us on top. put seawolf vs Virgina with comparable crews. no sound augmentation for training. at let them go at it? ill give Virginia 3 out of 5 victories with a survivor. although most likely they would take each other out.. one of my best friends turned down a spot on the Connecticut, and one of my captains was a former xo off that same boat. and leaned a lot from him. its the crew that determins a boats fate not the tech. one of the most dangerous subs in the world isn't even nuclear.. the german type 209 thats right a diesel.. technology isn't everything..

[edit on 12-9-2007 by DIRTMASTER]

[edit on 12-9-2007 by DIRTMASTER]

Originally posted by Harlequin
spearfish is a pump jet torpedo used by teh Royal Navy - and when it enetered service there was nothing else like it in the world in service

What a bonehead....thanks for clearing this up Harlequin. I thought Spearfish was a class of boat. It is the same with certain of our class of torpedos. Seems that the pump jet is taking over.
Thanks for the clarification.

Dirtmaster is right on here. IN the bullseye. Crew Training counts for alot...a whole lot.

As a yardbird, Ive been in the yards doing certain work on my stomach and been caught in the middle of a drill..a flooding casualty. They will walk and run right over you to get to the casualty and this was only a drill. Dont try this on your own unless you like getting run over. The focus is intense when they are training. As a crew member you dont want to get a reputation that you cannot be counted on to make the grade or in hard difficult times and or not make your qualification. Such word gets out quickly in a small cloistered arena. Out at sea it must be doubly so. When they can these guys will tell you some very intresting and also some frightening sea storys..some of which can bring you up short.

Dont misunderstand me here..the technology is great..but unless you have matching crew training to compliment you are just treading water. Way outclassed by a better trained crew.

The technology will continue to advance and adapt to changing demands and or mission requirements.

Another thing though not quite the same as going out to sea on one of these boats. As a yardbird...you also dont want to not make the grade. There are certain peoples of certain reputations/skills/ knowleges you want with you on difficult dangerous jobs..and people you definitely dont want. When your backside is on the line...you will draw such a line in who does and does not work with you. No light weights need apply. Thats just the way it is.
I dont blame the Navy one bit for drawing such a line for thier standards.
IT needs to be done..hard and fast. No lightweights need apply!! YOu make the grade or get the hell down the road.

Thanks,
Orangetom

[edit on 12-9-2007 by orangetom1999]

Tonka,

Was looking for some new material to read when I have some slack time around here. I remembered this thread and decided to go ahead and order those two books you mentioned.

The Silent War and We Come unseen.

I look forward to reading them and thanks for these titles.

Thanks,
Orangetom

I ordered the two books late last month.


We Come Unseen by Jim Ring

The Silent War By John Pina Craven

Just today I managaed to finish We Come Unseen. This turned out to be a intresting book after what I consider to be a very slow start. There was more detail in this book than what I am accustomed in books on this topic. Some of the material would be considered classified here in the USA and not allowed to be covered or discussed. Lots of detail once the introductory chapters are completed. Actually more detail than is covered in Tom Clancys books. Intresting account of what happened in the Falklands Island Conflict with the sinking of the General Belgrano.
Also lots on the buisness of intelligence gathering. Very intresting here too on intelligence gathering.
A very shocking and stunning account of the dangers of and an accident working with the special boat squadrons is told here clearly illustrating the dangers and weighty responsibilitys of command.
Also...very intresting accounts of the Perisher Course. These accounts alone made the book worthwhile.

While preparing for work today I checked the post and the other book came The Silent War. I will have something to read tonight during the slack periods.

Thanks,
Orangetom

reply to post by Kim78


The German world is very small when it comes to defense. A small budget, a narrow scope in mission, a VERY restrictive political environment when it comes to issues regarding environmentalism or use of military force outside German or NATO boundaries..... The mere idea of suggesting a nuclear sub is nearly absurd, given Germany's or many other EU nations’ political landscape. You can also see this with tanks where they use inferior materials for penetrators in armor piercing rounds because the political ramifications of using depleted Uranium is unfathomable. Many European Navies are no war fighting Navy's, they barely even see themselves as such and in some cases one can argue they are more like a Coast Guard than a Navy. The political environment is very different, their budgets are small, and in some cases they lack the industrial base to really support a nuclear powered sub, their scope in missions are more limited......

The US Navy needs subs that are part of that carrier group. These subs stay out for loooooong times and travel vast distances....... US Ohio class subs basically go out and disappear for months at a time, with literally only a hand full of people knowing where they are at, sitting and waiting to shoot a nuclear payload at a target. The German Cold War scenario was to seal of the Baltic Sea and that's pretty much it. Small subs with a small span in mission that don't stay out on sea very long, carry no nukes, and don't "really" worry about delivering special troops into places with names like Libya, Iran, Iraq........

The USN operates in a completely different universe than near all these European nations. Most comparisons typically single out one variable on which they focus to make some overall judgment, but it's largely nonsense. The USN operates with a budget that is larger than the entire defense budget of ANY European nation (Army, Air Force, and Navy combined) and where it counts, they have the lead, if for no other reason because they can afford the nice new toys. A modern subs performance isn’t measured in simple underwater speed or dive depth or any other ignorant comparison like this. Like a modern fighter which is no faster or higher flying than it’s predecessor, the real advantage is in stealth, the sensors carried on board, the armament……….

"An LA class submarine can shut down almost everything not absolutely needed. Same with the older class Sturgeon 637 class boats."

I'm pretty sure they still had to run the pumps that circulated water through the reactor coils. This is generally why a nuke boat is not as quit as a diesel even if they are both stopped.

I know the Ohio's could run silently on low power with the pumps off. The natural heat currents pushing the water through the reactor.

I haven't heard of the LA's had this option though.

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Of course if you only build 3 Seawolfs, they will be very expensive. Whenever you hear that the price per unit escalated (subs, jets, etc.) the number one reason is that the initial quote is based on a higher quantity. When Congress typically cuts back the quantity, the price per unit goes up.

2nd-I'm sure the Virginia class benefitted imensely from technolopies paid for by the Seawolf program.

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AIP subs lack the power projection of nuclear subs. If the president suddenly needs several subs stationed to where they can launch tomahawks or something, you pretty much need nuke boats.

Subs often escort our carriers. It would make sense for them to have the speed and endurance to keep up with them--something an AIP could not do.

When there is a maritime crisis and the President asks, "Where is the nearest carrier?" The next question is probably, "Which sub is already there?"

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My money is on the Seawolf. The technologies in both boats are rather similar - though upgrades to the 688s put most of them on some rather equal footing.

The Seawolf is larger - which generally translates to being more quiet. It also had more torpedo tubes - which can be pretty invaluable when reserving a few for a snapshot (firing on a bearing - usually done to make the enemy tuck&run while you dodge whatever they fired at you).

Though war games are often rather skewed - you're dead if you screw up and are found - you don't get to use countermeasures. In my reserve unit, we have a sonar technician and an electronics technician who both served on submarines in active duty before shifting to reserves. Their war games usually involved the CO getting annoyed and calling back "Can someone drop a wrench or something down there so that they can find us and we get on with this?"

Though some training exercises using 'dummy' weapons are rather interesting. The torpedoes that are used are designed to curve off after they get within a certain range of the target.... though that doesn't always happen like it should.... causing some minor damage to the hull of the boat.

Though, really, the difference in submarine warfare is the crew and the training. There has been a lot of concern over the restrictions on submarine training exercises off the west coast (where we have a very extravagant training center for submarine crews - namely the real environments used to train in). The concern is the proliferation of diesel submarines (which can run very quiet) to many countries that are potentially hostile to the U.S. Primary concern has been with regards to our carriers.

A few Kilo-class submarines would easily be able to sneak up on a carrier, and even fire two or three salvos from their tubes before any escorts could do much more than get a few torpedoes off, themselves. Having 20+ torpedoes screaming towards a multi-trillion dollar carrier and its 2 squadrons and irreplaceable man-power and experience.... obviously not a good thing. Carriers are armed to the teeth to defend against anti-ship missiles.... but torpedoes have somehow been forgotten..... ironic considering it was a major design consideration back in WWII - particularly for battleships and dreadnoughts.

Obviously early detection of threats to a carrier and its task force is vital to the U.S. The loss of one carrier would be a rather drastic blow to our naval forces - but an insanely large blow to our morale. However, Congress and local governments seem to think Carriers run on dreams and prayers, and computer simulations are all it requires to train someone these days (so much cheaper than the real stuff, too - the perfect solution!). So they restrict operational budgets and training budgets for our military while placing restrictions on training exercises that threaten the quality and capability of our personnel.

But it will probably take the loss of a few carriers to some backwater country with a few Kilos they bought for a few million USD before they start going on a headhunt, wanting to know why the Navy isn't doing their job and why they seem to think they need more money when they obviously can't do their job.

I hate politicians..... being brain-dead must be a requirement to run in party-based elections. There are a few that get through the screen (ironically in the Presidential race), but it seems like the party says "Whoa... hey.... you sound like you know what you are talking about and have half a brain... I'm sorry - you're so overqualified for this job that you should just go somewhere else."

reply to post by longbow


If you wanted to protect only the waters around the U.S., then fine. But we are a superpower and deploy far and wide. The Virginias are far better suited for force projection.