Should Holocaust revision (NOT denial) be taken more seriously?

Originally posted by DoctorSatan
4 words:
Winners write the History.

The same way Hitler was deemed as a force trully evil in America, more evil than a certain guy who ordered nukes to be dropped on Japan, the U.S. and Soviet Union were considered evil in Germany.

Once the Allied Powers won, they set up the nations of Israel. I think that the war was planned for two reasons:
1.) Oil
2.) Close proximity to the Soviet Union.

I think the holocaust numbers are exaggerated by atleast a million.

Completely agree.

And I could go on for hours about this subject but I'll leave you with this wonderful revisionist video by David Cole, who is himself jewish and exposes the lies!

reply to post by m1991


Just about the only thing is that they do focus on only the Jewish victims. But that's only because they were treated the worse, because the Nazis hated them the most.

All the data is there, and I see no reason to change the teaching of the events.

reply to post by m1991


Research into the Holocaust is an ongoing process by many historians.

Historical facts are always being examined and revised, or corrected. Even the Holocaust, contrary to what some would have us believe.

Revisionism has a lot of bad conitations to many, simply because so often the reasons given for the "revision" are less than benign in intent. One need only look at certain websites to discover that, or even at certain threads here on ATS.

But any historical research that calls into question facts in evidence with other facts is worthwhile. But one should also, given the nature of the topic, look at the reason behind the revisioning. Why is the historian making these claims?

reply to post by Sternblut


Uh, no. They murdered the people because they were of a certain group.

And yes. We murdered people too.

I war, you do not judge a side by what they do, but what they would do after the war. For Hitler, this would be a single mind set. For America, diversity.

For this reason, even though America was undeniably brutal in their extermination of Japan and Germany, they were the good guys. Because they weren't the ones seeking to eliminate all forms of thought but the state's.


Germany Killed Jews. A lack of documentation does not deny the photos. And you know what? America and Russia killed more Germans than they did Jews. A lack of documentation does not deny the photographs. And you know what else? We were the good guys.

In war, you annihilate your enemy without mercy. Women, Children, Soldiers, workers, everyone. Fire earth. You exterminate them. And that's exactly what we did. Because they would have exterminated everyone but themselves. That's how you win a war.

Originally posted by RadeonGFXRHumanGTXisAlien

You dont question the facts?
6 million jews dead is a hyperbole.

Actually, No, I don't particularly question 6 million as a general figure. When I DO consider the countless mass graves, both small and large that are still sitting all over Europe and Russia, I'll bet the balance makes up for whatever discrepancy in official tallies may exist.

However, I'm really not focused on the precise body count. As I said in a previous message, it's really absurd that the difference in how many MILLION civilian men, women and children were systematically slaughtered like livestock is even a topic for debate. After a certain point, the numbers just don't shock or even hold much meaning anymore aside from the statement that an event was plain and simply evil.

Various estimates of Jewish Holocaust dead

Now, as that link shows, the estimates range from the absurdly high to a number so low, someone should have been fired for even printing it. Given the fact we have experts on both sides of the coin that claim radically opposing versions of the truth, I have chosen to stay with the best evidence and knowledge available at the time this all happened. Memories weren't even memories yet, they were the events that happened last week, last month or last year. EVIDENCE and not agenda driven opinions may arise someday to seriously question what happened in 1940's Germany and it's controlled territory, but I seriously doubt anything historically important changes.

The rest of that link shows just how mind numbing the horror of the 20th century has truly been, by the numbers and by the events. Do I question facts? Every day. Do I find a number of 6 million slaughtered hard to accept? Sadly? No...I really don't.

reply to post by Gorman91


h, no. They murdered the people because they were of a certain group.

Shows what you know. Germans wanted Germany to be GERMAN.

They issued warnings to all non-germans including jews to leave. Alot of jews did leave, but Jews had an attitude along the lines of: "Dis is my propertee and I'm not weaving! I put a lot of monee into dis pwace, besides twavewing is bad for my fibamialgya"

And so the germans hated them the same way you'd hate someone in your house NEVER LEAVING, even when you told them to GTFO.

They have official records to state they only kill 100,000+ jews. Eye witness accounts and word of mouth documentation cannot be credited (The German accounts were acquired through torture! I would say anything tortured). Even if 6 Million DID die, why did their population jump so bad after the war?

"Six million

The figure of "six million" (which refers only to Jewish victims, and is larger when counting the other ethnic, religious, and minority groups targeted for extinction) is often minimized by claims to a figure of only one million deaths, or only three hundred thousand deaths. Numerous documents archived and discovered after the war gave meticulous accounts of the exterminations that took place at the "death camps" (such as Auschwitz and Treblinka). Deniers claim that these documents are based on Soviet propaganda, primarily from Ilya Ehrenburg's Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee, and are therefore unreliable." - en.wikipedia.org...


"Jewish population

One Holocaust denial argument is the comparison of the population of Jews before and after the Holocaust. They state that the 1940 World Almanac gives the world Jewish population as 15,319,359, while the 1948 World Almanac gives the world Jewish population as 15,713,638. They therefore claim that either the figures are wrong, or the Holocaust, meaning the deaths of millions of Jews, cannot have happened to any extent similar to the claimed 6 million." - Same Wiki source

WW2 was popularly called the brother's war, until multiculturalism and political correctness came, more than 50% of the US population was german at the time, and a lot of times the soldiers would give the wrong bombing coordinates and miss targets on purpose to avoid killing their German relatives.


"Germany Killed Jews. A lack of documentation does not deny the photos. And you know what? America and Russia killed more Germans than they did Jews. A lack of documentation does not deny the photographs. And you know what else? We were the good guys."
=
If you put so much faith into pictures, then this guy is a time traveler without question! lol
Time Traveler!
forgetomori.com...

A lot of holocaust photos have been edited, forged and faked:

www.fpp.co.uk...
revforum.yourforum.org...

It happened a lot in war and just recently with the al jazeer thing here on ATS:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

exposing-the-holocaust-hoax-archive.blogspot.com...

Also a lot of those photos were from Soviet camps.





"In war, you annihilate your enemy without mercy. Women, Children, Soldiers, workers, everyone. Fire earth. You exterminate them. And that's exactly what we did. Because they would have exterminated everyone but themselves. That's how you win a war." - Doesnt explain why Germany was allied with Japan and didn't want to fight the US, but did reluctantly..
Wouldn't be the last time the US bombed itself to get into a war - OWNED@!

en.wikipedia.org...
www.neatorama.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by Sternblut


So someone who was born in Germany isn't German, if they happen to be Jewish? Does that apply if they're say...Catholic? ...or Oriental? Or does German mean Blond, and Blue eyed?

reply to post by m1991


A figure of 6 million would mean that just under 3,000 people were killed every single day for the entire period of the war!

Would that also include the Russians, Homosexuals, Gypsies and Allied troops?

I don't know, but when you start to discuss the figures you normally get the response of "oh, they had trains and gas chambers"

reply to post by Sternblut


You don't have the right to kick people off their land, whatever the warning may be.

Spare me the regurgitated denial crap. Germany slaughtered non Germans. For that, I Feel a sense of happiness and glory that the United States slaughtered millions of them. I am happy the blood of women and children flowed through their streets. Let them never forget to respect their fellow man, least the rest of the world demote their humanity again.

Also spare me the crap that Germany and japan didn't want to fight America. They both wanted their empires over what America already had.

If I was president, and I was told that we could have a justification to go to war if we did nothing on the foreknowledge of Perl Harbor, I cannot honestly tell you I would try to stop it. I cannot honestly tell you I wouldn't have dropped 5 more nukes on such animals, just for good measure.

There is one thing in this world I honestly feel no remorse in seeing the death of, and that is my fellow man whom think they are better because of their blood or skin. I am happy we committed genocide against such non-humans. May their bones bare the memories of the sins they committed, for the sins we committed ended their existence.

I shed not one tear for even their new borns whom were turned to ash. Not one tear for the animals that looked by as their government killed non germans and non japenes. Not one single feeling of remorse for the wholesale slaughter of their populations. Because that's how you win a war. Genocide against such ignorance.

reply to post by Gorman91


Notice how you just dismissed all my evidence? And followed up with a "I love the sound of german's dying' Attitude?

Nice.

As for this:
"So someone who was born in Germany isn't German, if they happen to be Jewish? Does that apply if they're say...Catholic? ...or Oriental? Or does German mean Blond, and Blue eyed? "

German is a RACE. Germany is a country. They are not the same thing. Jews are not germans. They can be citizens of Germany recently. Jews are considered a middle eastern race. The Nazi's said Germany is for GERMANS. See?
Germanic People

Unfortunatly that the 'allies' won the war. Race isnt a closely followed subject. In our modern state you will find only very few and very old books describing race and it's attributes. I have a few russian and german ones with fabulous pictures showing earlobe configuration, brow arrangement, etc. And this is how you identify race.

www.usmbooks.com...
germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org...

We have a postwar state of ignorance. It's a bit like trying to identify a straight of fruit that they say they are all the same, and they grow them all together and mix them, so it becomes very hard for people in an education system like that to differentiate between an apple and an orange. They are 2 colors and taste different but we've all been taught that all fruit is the same, and should be mixed in our food preparation. Now I'm hearing trying to describe to you what an orange tastes like, without the apple. And you are finding it hard to understand. Make sense?

Nazi racial Theory: www.thebreman.org...
(I'd like to point out race isnt a theory, it's a fact, you can see the difference. Which means there is a difference.)

It seems as time goes on, and the world falls and crumbles more and more, it's becoming more known and realized that all the time, Hitler was right, and his downfall was the world downfall.

Both Jewish Holocaust revision and Jewish Holocaust denial should be taken more seriously. Denial for the main reason that it is illegal in many countries. That alone is so suspicious that it should be seriously questioned.

Thanks to Sternblut for posting the David Cole video. I hadn't seen it before. It is certainly thought provoking. I think Cole and others are right to focus on logistical aspects of the "final solution" issue. Doing so is an intelligent way to navigate around the mine fields of personal testimony and exaggerated official claims. If something doesn't make sense logistically, or is simply, impossible to do, logistically, then one must seriously question whether the event in question occurred and seriously and carefully examine the evidence for it.

Cole, of course, doesn't tell us why some experts now believe that the "soap from Jews" story, for example, is false. Granted, his video is not intended to be an exhaustive presentation of his revisionist case, but anyone serious about this subject would want to know those reasons and to decide if they are valid.

The same can be said for his doubts about the gas chamber/air raid shelter. I would like to examine aerial photos of the camp at the appropriate times to see if the holes or traces of them can be seen on the roof of this building. Cole's assertion is not enough in a topic like this.

We know for a fact that Hitler's program called for the elimination of Jews from German territory. We know that they were sent to labor camps. We know that they were treated harshly and that many died under such treatment. We know that, for the Jews, under the Nazis, there was no light at the end of the tunnel.

They were going to be exterminated, through one means or another. The concept of Jewish rehabilitation didn't exist for the Nazis. They were regarded as a racial pestilence. If other nations were not willing to accept them, and they weren't, the only solution was to exterminate them, through outright killing or through death as slave laborers.

This, the Nazis set out to do, with Jews, Slavs, political prisoners and with any other undesireable.

Cole and the revisionists might quibble about how many were actually killed in the concentration camps. They may be right in that the numbers were actually less than is usually quoted. For the sake of historical accuracy it is good to know the details. Jews themselves might be relieved to know that "they didn't get as many of us as we thought.". . . but . . . the intention was to get them all, and then move on to deal with the Catholic Church.

I'm completely confident of that.

There are too many attestations of this from disparate sources among the Nazi hierarchy itself, although most of these people were not aware of the full implications of the racial policies of the Reich until they encountered evidence of it in the course of carrying out duties which brought them into contact with its operation or its effects on their own projects within the war effort.

This is a complex subject. It is difficult to address adequately in a forum post, but the Nazis were known to be eugenicists, who killed aryans who had the misfortune to be born with mental abnormalities. If they were willing to do that to people who were racially "pure" in other respects I have no doubt whatever of their intentions toward the Jews, an intention they did not fulfil only because they were defeated on the battlefield.

In that context, the activities of the revisionists seem a little academic. Did the Nazis kill millions in the camps with gas chambers, or were the delousing rooms experimented with as a possible killing technology? There is no doubt that the Nazis had an agenda to kill a lot of people and were looking for efficient killing technologies.

They started to eliminate their perceived enemies and left unchecked would have done it, to the highest percentage possible.

reply to post by Sternblut


Race is not a fact. Race is a theory. Breed would be more accurate.

I did ignore all your data. Because nothing in there is proof. Why should I waste my time refuting that which has already been refuted to death? You refuse to see truth, so you damn yourself to ignorance. This ignorance of race, of nation, of people.

Show me a nation that didn't steal the land it lives on today? Show me how race exists? For it's just another word for species. Carefully hidden away for ignorant people to bode by. Show me how humanity is different! It is all human, with various skills and abilities. And as you have so willingly proven, so able to be manipulated to hate.

To death with philosophies like yours. May you hopefully die an old man or woman, but all alone in your mindset. May you only find people with mindsets not of your own, and may God will it that one day you realize just how ignorant you are in that mind of yours, and allow you to liberate yourself and become readmitted into the HUMAN race. The one, the only, the MUTT species from Africa, that is as diverse as the colors of the rainbow.

To anyone who is interested in deprogramming themselves from a lifetime of holocaust propaganda, I highly recommend watching the series of informative, well-researched videos on THIS website.

reply to post by audiopackrat


Why would you call it programmed and propaganda? To what gain?

Propaganda is to lie about something for swaying minds in order to gain something. What is gained?! Humanity slaughtered yet another part of itself. Nothing is gained if this is true.

People killed people in war. One side started it. Now they're slaughtered like the ones they slaughtered. Such is man. Such is justice.

The problem with any large numbers of deaths, is that there really is no way to determine how many people actually died. As was seen during the tsunami that happened in Sri Lanka, or even Rwanda, they have to estimate based off of the following: Memories of the survivors and any records to try to get an accurate accounting of how many people died.

The holocaust that happened was a point of tragedy in human history, never before had there been such a methodical attempt to destroy one group of people that could have been very effective, if the Germans had not been stopped by World War II. And with any major diseaster or horrible event, people want to forget and try to move on.

Did it happen, yes it did, to what extent, we really can not be sure how many people were actually and ruthlessly murdered.

The op has asked if we should take Holocaust revision more seriously, and the answer should be yes, but only if they can come up with concrete evidence, such that could not be disputed beyond a shadow of a doubt as proof that what they are stating is correct. This has to be done cautiously, cause one mistake, and what is disputed would be turned down without anyone thinking twice.

The lack of records would be easy to explain, as Germany was in a war, and between the bombings and the destruction, such records could easily have been destroyed. So any and all changed to history would have to show, and be authentic before we should take such seriously, and accepted.

guys, go and watch "defamation" then we will talk about propaganda and its REASONS.
also, thx for ignoring my post i made earier, especially my question about CNN.

reply to post by potential_problem


Bring your data to the plate. It's that simple. Too many here justify what thy say solely on some video (which in itself speaks volumes to the concept of "proof")

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by audiopackrat

 

Why would you call it programmed and propaganda? To what gain?

Propaganda is to lie about something for swaying minds in order to gain something. What is gained?! Humanity slaughtered yet another part of itself. Nothing is gained if this is true.

People killed people in war. One side started it. Now they're slaughtered like the ones they slaughtered. Such is man. Such is justice.

edit on 28-8-2011 by Gorman91 because: le spelling

What is gained? If you had watched the videos...or even read the 'Manifesto' at the bottom of the page, maybe you'd understand what is gained, and who gains, by keeping myths alive in the minds of people; The holocaust myth helps justify militarism and wars of aggression - which benefit the bankers, politicians, the military industry, the apartheid state of Israel, and of course Hollywood and the MSM. It benefits those who seek to control others by force, fraud or coercion. Holocaust denial/revision isn't so much Anti-jewish as it is Anti-War.