We (Muslims) are going to stone obelisks this Friday.

reply to post by torqpoc

Make your own assumptions, come to your own conclusions. I simply and politely answered your question. As to calling modern religion bull. I'm not the only one voicing that concept here, yet you seem to have picked on my posts, so be it.

As to calling modern religion bull....I am bringing that up basis your own words.
Please recall.... these are your own words in this post... www.abovetopsecret.com...

You wrote.

Now go read some more and gain some real wisdom, not that which is spewed forth from the Qu'ran. That isn't wisdom, it's bullsh*t.

My point is... that was rather cheap.
Nobody asked you to click on a thread that started off with "we (muslims)".

Read the entire Sumerian texts, then read all of the derived literature based on those. 5000 years before "Jesus" supposedly existed and again, "supposedly" performed the acts he performed, there were people writing about beings, alien beings descended from the skies. Yet modern man has eclipsed this knowledge and prefers to follow the hashed up rendition of it. You ask me where the Sumerians got their information, well since there is currently nothing that predates it, i'm at a loss as to where it came from, but the simple fact it's there proves undeniably that the concept of "one God" "one religion" is a totally falacy. The pantheon of 12 was already in place in the Sumerian times, Gods (plural) changed names throughout different civilisations, again enforcing that the true history of man was "changed" for the purposes of those at hand.

I too am fascinated by Sumerian culture myself. I too dont "get" where the Sumerians got their knowledge from.
I too am clueless with regards to how this culture started off. And I will never claim to know the exact details.

I am not even approaching this from a "religious" point of view, as this has to do with human history.. that everyone of us can relate to. All you had to do was state this view, in the beginning... instead of storming in here and writing off another world view as bull#.

For the record, I don't give a monkey's what you study or read

and yet... you fling this at me

"You'd be amased what's out there if you spend a little time reading."


ha.

reply to post by torqpoc


Dear torqpoc.

Actually what you are referring to is called a conscience. It has nothing to do with the ego, or id. You sorely need to educate yourself on the differences

I have my own source of knowledge, different source. What I am referring has a name in Islam and it is called Nafs. So , May be I have chosen the word incorrectly or there are some misunderstandings.

your choice of following a religion, especially being Muslim is not one of free will. Your parents were indoctrinated, their parents before them, your entire society is indoctrinated.

It is not.

You are not following a set of self created rules of behaviour, you're following the interpretation of a set of rules written out by men, pretending to speak on behalf of Muhammad, pretending to speak on behalf of God. Are you seeing the link there? A lot of pretense.

I know what you are talking about. We believe that after Muhammad , God blessed us with some other people who are helping us through our lives.

I know there are selfish interpretations of Quran and Islam , but I think that interpretations are getting more God based as there are some people who are working on interpretations ( including me ). I have adequate study on religion and you are accusing me of blind following.

The set of rules you follow are those that forbid women the right to vote, free speech,

They have the right to vote and freedom of speech.

e right to walk around as nature intended

Sometimes nature intends some behaviors which are not humanistic . ( The weakest is always oppressed in nature , The animals have sex before other animals eyes - like some animal-behaving humans )

The question is : how much do you know the nature , how that is true ?

force you to fast

There is no force , we do it by free will . Fasting helps us to control our Nafs and is good for remembering of our old enemy (Satan-Eblis).

It's a set of mind, social and personal rules and restrictions on your life

May be you should start publishing your theories like Freud did . And you know it worked. No.

I don't tend to follow theories of the people who have unknown tendencies and complexes . That is why the prophets were demonstrating their miracles. To guaranty that they are speaking from god.

and even more sadly, Muslims and Christians relish being controlled and ruled by these religions because they have zero capacity to govern themselves

We (human beings) have the capacity of governing ourselves , but there should be some rules to control the government . I prefer that those rules be God's rules ( there is a guaranty that it would work ) as I said before.

I pity all religious people because they are an example of a powerless ego. It is not something to be proud of, it's something to be ashamed of.

But I don't pity people who trust in the people that like to go through years of experience to understand that 2 * 2 = 4 ( i.e may be we better control our instincts) , because I believe in free will. People choose what to do .

Now go read some more and gain some real wisdom, not that which is spewed forth from the Qu'ran.That isn't wisdom, it's bullsh*t.

I see . this is wisdom.

Originally posted by hmdphantom

Originally posted by pplrnuts
Theres tons of 'gods', so how is YOUR 'god' the one and only?

May be there are different understandings of god but the there is only one truth. It is how it is.

edit on 21/8/11 by hmdphantom because: (no reason given)

Last I heard we were our own Gods...

At least I know my God answers back when I talk to him... I can hear his voice, shake his hand, give him a high five, chill with him on the beach, and even chit chat about worldly events.

The difference is my God makes a difference and has an effect in my world. Most of all he isn't imaginary.

My problem is there are several people locked up for talking to nonexistent entities, but here are all these churches all over the place doing the same thing and I'm suppose to think these people are sane?

Forgive me if I see flaws in your theory...

Theory: abstract thought : speculation

Islamic belief: Muslims believe that God is one and incomparable and the purpose of existence is to worship God.[1][2] Muslims also believe that Islam is the complete and universal version of a primordial faith that was revealed at many times and places before, including through Abraham, Moses and Jesus, whom they consider prophets .

So therefore these are all beliefs and not facts...

reply to post by The GUT

That pic is kind of scary.

In fact it is. We should be scared to stay aware. We have a great common enemy , Satan (Eblis).

Jesus is the only thing that stands between us actually crushing Satan on Earth together as brothers. He wasn't just a prophet, friend, he was the fulfillment of the ancient prophets message. I love the passion of many Muslims who really try and live a holy life. So many Christians lack that passion today and I'm so often guilty of it myself. I admire that in my Muslim friends. Have you ever read Acts in the Bible? For some reason I think it would speak to you. May God bless us all in the trying times ahead and may we learn to love.

Beautiful sentences , I agree.

reply to post by DeNaga

Sorry, I can't let you get away with that one. These are things I learned years ago. If you really study the language you would know not to deal with hadith.

Do you believe that you may have been mislead ? Is there a little possibility in your mind ?

Why shouldn't I be dealing with those as long as I do researches for the sources and I compare it with Quran ?

Or you don't believe in Quran too ?

reply to post by hmdphantom


Dear hmdphantom,

Of course all women in muslim countries are liberated as they are in the West, how stupid of me to assume differently =)

A little truth goes a long way, please do not pretend women are liberated in Muslim countries, they may be to a greater degree in YOUR country but that's a far cry for the whole.

You chose to fast, because it is dictated by your religious laws. I'm sorry, but that still is not choice or free will at all. It simply a slanted view of a dictatorial system, in this case religion.

The last time I checked there was more provable truth in Freud's ideas and concepts than there were in anything written in either the Bible or Qu'ran. His concepts and those before and after him are partly why some of us are here now, with eyes wide open realising that religion isn't all it's meant to be, more about control than the liberty of one's soul.

As to your statement nature intends behaviour which is not human, i'm sorry but that's one of the defining differences between humans and animals, that to a greater degree we do not behave as those. To use that as an excuse for barbaric acts used under the umbrella of religion is staggering.. simply staggering.

You state you are not blindly following, yet any form of religious belief is blind of both the truth, history, and an enlightened mind.

T

reply to post by torqpoc

A little truth goes a long way, please do not pretend women are liberated in Muslim countries, they may be to a greater degree in YOUR country but that's a far cry for the whole.

Just because they are not wearing mini skirts or they don't get naked in the beach by freewill ?

I am understanding more and more about you MSM watchers.

You are trying to tell us that we are not Muslims by freewill.

I am a proud Muslim.

I think that it is not my duty to explain to you that I have chosen it by freewill.

End of conversation.

Originally posted by hmdphantom
reply to post by torqpoc

 

A little truth goes a long way, please do not pretend women are liberated in Muslim countries, they may be to a greater degree in YOUR country but that's a far cry for the whole.

Just because they are not wearing mini skirts or they don't get naked in the beach by freewill ?

No - just because they never have the choice in the first place - just because they will be attacked and/or imprisoned for doing so.

I am understanding more and more about you MSM watchers.

You are trying to tell us that we are not Muslims by freewill.

I am a proud Muslim.

Perhaps you are - but it is irrelevant the the question of free will in moslem countries - if you were born to moslem parents then in many places you are a moslem and cannot renounce your religion - therefore you are not moslem by free will.

For example when the Islamic Republic massacred several thousand political prisoners in 1988 one of hte ways they justified killing leftists was by painting them as apostate - one of hte questions asked was "'When you were growing up did your father pray, fast, and read the Holy Koran?' - because if their father did so then he was a good moslem, therefore they had been bought up properly and so weer therefore "proper" moslems until they became leftists.

If their father was not a good moslem then they had obviously not been bought up properly - so they couldn't be convicted of apostasy since they had not been correctly raised in the moslem faith.

You only have free will where you have the ability to make an alternative decision - and in islam you are not allowed to make a decision to not be moslem.

I think that it is not my duty to explain to you that I have chosen it by freewill.

then why should we believe you?

End of conversation.

Indeed - a typical end of a conversation with a religous zealot - they do not need to explain anything, because their religion justifies everything for them.

Freewill only exists where you have a free choice - islam does not allow that - indeed any society bound by a single set of enforced norms doesn't - whether religious or political - it is the antithesis of ree will.

When people stop trying to insert that their religious views are correct, and everyone else isn't as the OP does, maybe this world will be able to know an ounce of peace.

Reply to post by megabytz

As opposed to the rational traditions and celebrations of the west?




Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

they do not need to explain anything, because their religion justifies everything for them.

No, It is because we do are things our way.

I didn't reply on other quotations of yours , because you are miss-informed or you are focusing on particular areas and then you generalize.

BTW , Reasoning is not going to work, because you just want to convince me and you are not going to change your mind or even bother gathering more information.

So.

End of conversation.

reply to post by Lemon.Fresh


Any one proposing different kind of life style should be vanished.

That is how World-systems theory works.

Originally posted by hmdphantom
reply to post by Lemon.Fresh

 

Any one proposing different kind of life style should be vanished.

That is how Capitalism works.

I'm pretty sure you are talking about a kind of socialism, since in that case the minority gets less rights. In capitalism everyone gets the same rights, and some people succeed and others don't, but even so the minority has property rights.

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

Freewill only exists where you have a free choice - islam does not allow that -

There are muslims who are born and brought up in muslim countries and still reject islam and go on to do the things that Islam prohibits.
And yes, there are islamic regimes who harshly enforce Islamic law.


But Islam itself teaches this regarding free choice....

“If it had been your Lord’s will, all of the people on Earth would have believed. Would you then compel the people so to have them believe?” -(Quran 10:99)

Originally posted by hmdphantom
No, It is because we do are things our way.

Yes you do. You stone people, behead them, strap bombs to yourselves and blow up innocents.

*golfclap*

When are you going to realise that Islam isn't wanted in the West, it doesn't fit.. it's like trying to put a square peg in a round hole. Trying to profess your religious stance isn't going to wash, let alone on ATS.

Your religion and society is one still etched out of barbaric acts and ways of thinking, still promoted in the 21st century. We, the enlightened, Westerners seperated Church and State a long time ago, maybe what you should be doing isn't stoning people or obelisks, it's stoning your religious teachers and waking up to the fact your beliefs are antiquated.

Now we are done!

T

Originally posted by torqpoc

Originally posted by hmdphantom
No, It is because we do are things our way.

Yes you do. You stone people, behead them, strap bombs to yourselves and blow up innocents.

*golfclap*

When are you going to realise that Islam isn't wanted in the West, it doesn't fit.. it's like trying to put a square peg in a round hole. Trying to profess your religious stance isn't going to wash, let alone on ATS.

Your religion and society is one still etched out of barbaric acts and ways of thinking, still promoted in the 21st century. We, the enlightened, Westerners seperated Church and State a long time ago, maybe what you should be doing isn't stoning people or obelisks, it's stoning your religious teachers and waking up to the fact your beliefs are antiquated.

Now we are done!

T

You two supposed to live as 'one'

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

 

Freewill only exists where you have a free choice - islam does not allow that -

There are muslims who are born and brought up in muslim countries and still reject islam and go on to do the things that Islam prohibits.
And yes, there are islamic regimes who harshly enforce Islamic law.


But Islam itself teaches this regarding free choice....

“If it had been your Lord’s will, all of the people on Earth would have believed. Would you then compel the people so to have them believe?” -(Quran 10:99)

Christianity is different?

Originally posted by hmdphantom
reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

 

they do not need to explain anything, because their religion justifies everything for them.

No, It is because we do are things our way.

I didn't reply on other quotations of yours , because you are miss-informed or you are focusing on particular areas and then you generalize.

BTW , Reasoning is not going to work, because you just want to convince me and you are not going to change your mind or even bother gathering more information.

So.

End of conversation.

And when you are both dead, you will meet as one returning to source??

Originally posted by Gakus
When people stop trying to insert that their religious views are correct, and everyone else isn't as the OP does, maybe this world will be able to know an ounce of peace.

Yes indeed.

Nobody has an monopoly on the truth nobody!!

reply to post by torqpoc

Your religion and society is one still etched out of barbaric acts and ways of thinking, still promoted in the 21st century. We, the enlightened, Westerners seperated Church and State a long time ago

"Enlightened west?"
Yet, the "enlightened westerners" manage to act even more barbaric than the not-so-enlightened muslims... you know.... with all the large scale wars, the bombing of civilians from the skies, the manipulation of the public, the usurping of wealth through your federal reserve, the tolerance of a certain nazi like regime in the middle east.... and so on.

But... Im sure "the enlightened west" sees the above as civilized behaviour.